installing a rayburn

[katherine]

hi there, can anyone please help me with installing a rayburn 216 into my 57 ft narrow boat. i have read several comments on this topic, but no one seems to have mentioned the possible problems that rayburn have suggested could be difficult to get round. the most significant being the colifer needing to be higher than the stove and the difficulties in creating a gravity system which a rayburn would normally run on. i would be grateful for any help or advise on this or any other solutions that might help. thankyou.

Edited April 13, 2009 by katherine

[Tony Brooks]

hi there, can anyone please help me with installing a rayburn 216 into my 57 ft narrow boat. i have read several comments on this topic, but no one seems to have mentioned the possible problems that rayburn have suggested could be difficult to get round. the most significant being the colifer needing to be higher than the stove and the difficulties in creating a gravity system which a rayburn would normally run on. i would be grateful for any help or advise on this or any other solutions that might help. thankyou.

 

 

I will mention the problem of ballasting the boat back level because it is sited off level there will be a list.

 

Who said the calorifier has to be higher than the boiler? Better not tell all those with Ellis gas boilers or wet stoves and horizontal calorifiers. Yes, you will need 28mm pipes and probably have to run the hot outlet all but vertically to close to the cabin roof level, then horizontally along the roof, preferably still running up hill, then down to the calorifier and back to the Rayburn at or close to the floor. Its the hot water rising up the vertical section that makes it circulate. I think you would do well to incorporate at least one towel rail as well because once the calorifier is hot little heat will be taken from the water and the hotter the water entering the boiler the less circulating force will be generated so it could all boil - hate to think about the heat inside in the summer, but must be cosy in winter!

 

You will need a header tank that is higher than the highest pipe run and that could be a bit difficult.

 

FWIW many gravity circulated systems in the past ran the top pipe just under the gunnels, but that depends upon how high the boiler in the Rayburn is. If you are on a shoreline most of the time I can see no reason you can not use pumped circulation (shoreline to reduce battery drain).

[paulcatchpole]

I will mention the problem of ballasting the boat back level because it is sited off level there will be a list.

 

We have an Esse Soverign C onboard, installed last November whilst in dry dock. Lifting the thing six feet in the air was a challenge, but the weight didn't trim out the boat as much as I'd have expected - and I've since added extra ballast on the same side to get her level...

 

The Rayburn/Aga/Esse installers get all funny if you suggest a pumped system alone rather than gravity. Our Esse has two pairs of boiler tappings - one 1" BSP for gravity primaries and a second pair of 3/4" intended for a pumped radiator circuit, although they are commonly connected to the same boiler. The pumped circuit uses one of those VW 12v pumps off EBay, which pumps well, but is incredibly loud. Despite the effective pump, and a large BTU total of radiators, I've still managed to boil the entire thing when running on high for a sustained period of time - roast dins for example. I'm just about getting bored of that and considering filling the boiler with sand and running it dry.

 

The biggest problem I have with the Esse is that is uses a very basic wickless pot burner - which requries .1"WG pull on the flue - that's about double what a wicked Aga burner would need and I just can't achieve it easily. It'll just about do it when the whole flue is hot and the cooker running on high, but basically we can't turn it down, as it'll drop out of complete combustion and soot up within hours rather than the intended months.

 

Current plan on that front is to try a non-condensing boiler fan installed at the chimney collar. I say non-condensing as the flue temperature it should be able to survive is more like 200deg, rather than 60-70deg.

 

I got very bored over winter with the problems of running the Esse and being cold in the meantime, so installed a conventional A+ rated, heat-only, condensing boiler. Very pleased with that so far, including the gas consumption and its ability to modulate to 20% power.

 

Anyhoo, food for thought.

 

PC

[sueb]

I will mention the problem of ballasting the boat back level because it is sited off level there will be a list.

 

Who said the calorifier has to be higher than the boiler? Better not tell all those with Ellis gas boilers or wet stoves and horizontal calorifiers. Yes, you will need 28mm pipes and probably have to run the hot outlet all but vertically to close to the cabin roof level, then horizontally along the roof, preferably still running up hill, then down to the calorifier and back to the Rayburn at or close to the floor. Its the hot water rising up the vertical section that makes it circulate. I think you would do well to incorporate at least one towel rail as well because once the calorifier is hot little heat will be taken from the water and the hotter the water entering the boiler the less circulating force will be generated so it could all boil - hate to think about the heat inside in the summer, but must be cosy in winter!

 

You will need a header tank that is higher than the highest pipe run and that could be a bit difficult.

 

FWIW many gravity circulated systems in the past ran the top pipe just under the gunnels, but that depends upon how high the boiler in the Rayburn is. If you are on a shoreline most of the time I can see no reason you can not use pumped circulation (shoreline to reduce battery drain).

There is no need to have pipe runs along the roof. Our rayburn sat slightly towards the middle of the boat with a useful warm cupboard behind it. The pipes ran about a foot below the gunnels rising towards the rear of our boat to the caliorfier. The caliorfier is in a cupboard just inside the rear doors with an airing cupboard above it. The whole lot ran on gravity. We are coming up to Braunston so if you want to have a look let me know.

We no longer have the rayburn but the pipework is the same for our new stove.

Sue

[katherine]

thanks for all the advice, please keep it coming as i need to speak to the boat builder over the weekend and we would both be grateful for any help. katherine.

[Malarky]

The pipes could run allong the side, and act as a radiator in themselves, the calorifier would be fine sitting on the swim. The water can pump round by rising through an upward flow in the outlet pipework from the range known as a "dog leg", and you fit an expansion tank to the inlet pipe, this tank is quite high up with a breather pipe for any steam to exit the boat.

[katherine]

The pipes could run allong the side, and act as a radiator in themselves, the calorifier would be fine sitting on the swim. The water can pump round by rising through an upward flow in the outlet pipework from the range known as a "dog leg", and you fit an expansion tank to the inlet pipe, this tank is quite high up with a breather pipe for any steam to exit the boat.

 

thanks, this sounds fantasticly easy, is this all i would need to do to get it running? what size and high should an expansion tank need be?

 

There is no need to have pipe runs along the roof. Our rayburn sat slightly towards the middle of the boat with a useful warm cupboard behind it. The pipes ran about a foot below the gunnels rising towards the rear of our boat to the caliorfier. The caliorfier is in a cupboard just inside the rear doors with an airing cupboard above it. The whole lot ran on gravity. We are coming up to Braunston so if you want to have a look let me know.

We no longer have the rayburn but the pipework is the same for our new stove.

Sue

 

thanks for the offer, thats really kind. i think i am getting the idea now, but might take you up if i can't make sence of it. thanks again

[FadeToScarlet]

Just out of interest, why an AGA and not a Heritage? IIRC, the AGA comes in one solid cast lump, whereas the Heritage comes, effectively, flat-pack- so there's more chance of fitting it through the boat's door!

[Malarky]

thanks, this sounds fantasticly easy, is this all i would need to do to get it running? what size and high should an expansion tank need be?

Higher than the rest of the pipes, with the pipe run to avoid air locks, about 10-15 litres. An old fire extinguisher, inverted with the base adapted for example!

[choogh]

I have had two Rayburns on my boats, the first a solid fuel with back boiler on a narrowboats "Vulcan", the second, years later was a Rayburn oil fired pressure jet installed on my Tjalk "Vrouwe Jacoba". There is NOTHING, but NOTHING better, do it and enjoy..

C

[katherine]

Just out of interest, why an AGA and not a Heritage? IIRC, the AGA comes in one solid cast lump, whereas the Heritage comes, effectively, flat-pack- so there's more chance of fitting it through the boat's door!

 

i chose an AGA over a heritage stove as i wanted a wood burning stove and will not have too many probs with getting in in the boat as it is at a boat yard with lifting equipment!

 

I have had two Rayburns on my boats, the first a solid fuel with back boiler on a narrowboats "Vulcan", the second, years later was a Rayburn oil fired pressure jet installed on my Tjalk "Vrouwe Jacoba". There is NOTHING, but NOTHING better, do it and enjoy..

C

thats what i hope. have you any tips?

[choogh]

i chose an AGA over a heritage stove as i wanted a wood burning stove and will not have too many probs with getting in in the boat as it is at a boat yard with lifting equipment!

 

 

thats what i hope. have you any tips?

 

Just a few !

Make sure that the unit sits on a granite (or similar) plinth don't use concrete blocks or paving slabs as over time they will, with the vibrations and the weigh, start to "crumble".

There is no need to have a separate "header tank", use an expansion tank within the sealed system (have a separate "make up" water line and valve plumbed into the system to top up the system after leaks and maintenance. Don't forget to include an automatic air vent at the high point of the pipe from the back boiler to the calorifier, they are readily available from plumbing merchants.

Take the CE feed from a "T" piece (valved) from the same pipe, the CE return should be "T'eed" into the return line back from the calorifier to the back boiler on the cooker. I used a Danfoss circulation pump to run the CE and 3 radiators.

 

It's all rather simple, but, if you are retro fitting a Rayburn,into a NB, be warned they are heavy (obviously), but they are also awkward they don't like being lifted, they resist at every opportunity. And of course, make sure it will go through the doors... I used an old blanket laid on the cabin floor, on the top of that I placed a 19mm piece of ply sized to cover the area, and moved the unit down the boat by pushing and pulling....By using the ply, you will distribute the weigh evenly over the floor area and also protect the carpet !!!

 

If someone will tell me how to upload pictures, I will show you the finished product..

Email, if you need further info..

[katherine]

thankyou all for the advice, lots of food for thought! will write again when were up and running....

[katherine]

finally got there. we now have a system that we are able to cope with, although it did take a bit of time to get sorted. unfortunatly we have had to opt for a pumped system with 2 large radiators and the clorifer removed from the engine loop to stop things overheating. it seems to be working fine, we have plenty of hot water and are lovely and warm, if not a little too warm sometimes. we are considering the need for a 3rd radiator as we have overheated once when we hadn't used any hot water and turned it rayburn up. we have had little success in keeping it alight overnight with wood and have had to use coal which has helped. resonably happy with things but do feel like we have a new born baby on board that requires a lot of our attention. thanks everyone for all your help

[johnjo]

finally got there. we now have a system that we are able to cope with, although it did take a bit of time to get sorted. unfortunatly we have had to opt for a pumped system with 2 large radiators and the clorifer removed from the engine loop to stop things overheating. it seems to be working fine, we have plenty of hot water and are lovely and warm, if not a little too warm sometimes. we are considering the need for a 3rd radiator as we have overheated once when we hadn't used any hot water and turned it rayburn up. we have had little success in keeping it alight overnight with wood and have had to use coal which has helped. resonably happy with things but do feel like we have a new born baby on board that requires a lot of our attention. thanks everyone for all your help

 

How will you heat your hot water in the summer if it's too hot to have the AGA running.

 

Have you got an alternative, like an instant gas water heater ?

[sueb]

Thanks for the pm glad you are sorted.

Our Rayburn had a tap at the calorifia so we can teurn off the heating from the engine or the rayburn. Maybe two taps?

Sue

[katherine]

How will you heat your hot water in the summer if it's too hot to have the AGA running.

 

Have you got an alternative, like an instant gas water heater ?

we are hoping that we can get some sort of tap on the colorifer so we can switch between the engine or the rayburn heating the water.

[bottle]

Twin coil calorifier, one coil in the Rayburn circuit, one in the engine circuit.

[sueb]

Twin coil calorifier, one coil in the Rayburn circuit, one in the engine circuit.

Yes we have that but you don't always want the engine getting the water hot when the rayburn is on, which is why you need taps to play with.

Sue

[soldthehouse]

Yes we have that but you don't always want the engine getting the water hot when the rayburn is on, which is why you need taps to play with.

Sue

Forgive my niavety but would a twin coil calorifier circulate a small amount of water from the calorifier to the engine by conduction thus protecting from frost when the engine is off in the winter or is the effect minimal.

[bottle]

If the Rayburn has heated the water and you then run the engine, all that can happen is the engine will raise the calorifier to the engine running temperature, if the calorifier is at a higher temperature from the Rayburn, then some heat will be transferred to the engine circuit, this should not be a problem as the swim tanks should be able to cope.

[soldthehouse]

If the Rayburn has heated the water and you then run the engine, all that can happen is the engine will raise the calorifier to the engine running temperature, if the calorifier is at a higher temperature from the Rayburn, then some heat will be transferred to the engine circuit, this should not be a problem as the swim tanks should be able to cope.

Hello Kieth and thanks for reply, but my question was would warm or hot water find its way around the engine cooling system when the engine wasnt running ie in conductiononly rather than being pumped. The reason being would it provide some warming of the engine in very cold weather to aid starting. Hope ive made that clearer

 

Stuart

[bottle]

Stuart

 

My post actually was for Sue but as you ask, it may be possible but heat rises and the calorifier will be higher (height not temperature) than the engine so unlikely.

 

Now if a small pump was put in the engine circuit..............................but I think that could cause more problems than it solves.

[nb Innisfree]

We preheat our engine with Mikuni, works a treat, engine starts on the button no heater plugs needed and up to operating temp in a very short time.

[bottle]

How?