Which instantaneous water heater?

[MtB]

We'd like to fit a multipoint water heater in our boat as were bored with having to run the engine to heat the calorifier.

 

Question is, which water heater to fit? I'm convinced that something somewhere states new multipoint water heaters must be room sealed but I can find no reference to this in either PD 5482-3:2005 or at www.boatsafetyscheme.com. I even passed my renewal ACS exam for boats today and encountered no mention of this supposed requirement. Was I asleep at the wheel?

 

Can someone confirm I'm wrong or provide a reference to show that open flued multipoints are not allowed as new installations please? I'd quite like to install a Morco D51B like we had in the last boat if it is legal so to do.

 

Cheers, Mike

Edited March 25, 2009 by mike bryant

[alan_fincher]

Certainly no problem from a BSS perspective.

 

There was in a previous version of the regs, but it has been dropped now.

 

I don't know about RCD though.

 

The Morco D51B is a deleted model, and dependent on exact type, getting parts can be problematic.

 

If you want a new one it will need to be D61B, (piezo ignition) or D61E, (battery ignition).

 

Apparently they are physically the same size as the D51B, including flue and connectors.

 

The 61 will give the same temperature rise for a higher flow rate than you would get with a 51.

[NBMike]

Corgi say no but who cares about Corgi now?

[MtB]

Corgi say no but who cares about Corgi now?

 

 

CORGI are all feathers and no meat. If they say no, then they need to back it up with a citation. Which is what I am asking for here. If as Alan says, there is no longer such a citation I'll fit a Morco. A D61B...!

 

For anyone interested NBMike is referring to the end of CORGI's reign as the nominated registration body in accordance with the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998. From April 1st 2009 for the next ten years it will be Capita administering the register (subject to meeting a range of agreed targets), using the govt-owned trading name "Gas Safe Register". See https://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/.

 

Cheers, Mike

Edited March 25, 2009 by mike bryant

[churchward]

CORGI are all feathers and no meat. If they say no, then they need to back it up with a citation. Which is what I am asking for here. If as Alan says, there is no longer such a citation I'll fit a Morco. A D61B...!

 

For anyone interested NBMike is referring to the end of CORGI's reign as the nominated registration body in accordance with the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998. From April 1st 2009 for the next ten years it will be Capita administering the register (subject to meeting a range of agreed targets), using the govt-owned trading name "Gas Safe Register". See https://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/.

 

Cheers, Mike

 

I fitted a Morco 61B recently after our old 51 gave up the ghost. As Alan says they are the same to fit. On the hottest setting they lift ambient water temperature up to an additional 50 deg C which is plenty hot in the kind of weather we are having now and adequate when it's chuffing freezing like a month or two back. They are very simple to plumb in and the flue arrangement is simple too.

Edited March 25, 2009 by churchward

[alan_fincher]

I can only speak for the BSS side - I'm 100% confident I understand the rules there.

 

Never having had a boat new enough to come under the auspices of the RCD, I can't say for certain if there are any wobblies there, but I don't think there are.

 

I have been told a CORGI fitters code of practice does not allow the fitting of open flued devices, so it's a case where a competent person can do it, but a CORGI certified person apparently isn't permitted to.

 

If any of that's wrong, I'm sure I'll be corrected fairly smartly.

[blackrose]

I have a Valliant gas hot water heater which seems pretty good - I think they're probably all much of a muchness. I use an L-port valve between the calorifier & gas hot water heater so that I can choose which source I draw hot water from.

 

As far as I know, for the BSS non-room sealed are ok, but for the RCD I very much doubt it.

Edited March 26, 2009 by blackrose

[Jim]

I've just had a Morco 61B fitted for me by a boatyard (I'm not capable of doing it myself). I was told that non-room sealed was fine, as long as the boat wasn't my permanent residence - which unfortuantely it isn't.

Jim

[MtB]

I've just had a Morco 61B fitted for me by a boatyard (I'm not capable of doing it myself). I was told that non-room sealed was fine, as long as the boat wasn't my permanent residence - which unfortuantely it isn't.

Jim

 

 

Well I think your boatyard are wrong to draw a distinction between residential and non-residential boats. I have a feeling they are making up regs on the hoof - a common problem! I'd be interested to hear which reg exactly states this, I doubt they'll be able tell you, beyond a load of waffle.

 

Anyway, for the benefit of everyone (or anyone?) reading this thread I've found the regulation I was looking for that says I should install a room-sealed water heater. It is PD 5482-3:2005 6.1.

 

"Appliances should be recommended by the manufacturers as suitable for use in a marine environment. Appliances should be room-sealed (with the exception of cooking appliances and conventionally flued instantaneous water heaters used for replacement purposes). Only appliances that carry an appropriate CE mark sould be installed."

 

It appears I must fit a room-sealed water heater unless I'm replacing an existing water heater.

 

But hang on! It says "should be room sealed", not "must be room sealed"..... I think that makes it advisory not mandatory. Phew!

 

Cheers, Mike

Edited March 26, 2009 by mike bryant

[Rob@BSSOffice]

Well I think your boatyard are wrong to draw a distinction between residential and non-residential boats. I have a feeling they are making up regs on the hoof - a common problem! I'd be interested to hear which reg exactly states this, I doubt they'll be able tell you, beyond a load of waffle.

 

Anyway, for the benefit of everyone (or anyone?) reading this thread I've found the regulation I was looking for that says I should install a room-sealed water heater. It is PD 5482-3:2005 6.1.

 

"Appliances should be recommended by the manufacturers as suitable for use in a marine environment. Appliances should be room-sealed (with the exception of cooking appliances and conventionally flued instantaneous water heaters used for replacement purposes). Only appliances that carry an appropriate CE mark sould be installed."

 

It appears I must fit a room-sealed water heater unless I'm replacing an existing water heater.

 

But hang on! It says "should be room sealed", not "must be room sealed"..... I think that makes it advisory not mandatory. Phew!

 

Cheers, Mike

 

Mike, great to speak today and clarify that the BSS does not have requirements on this matter, however we do advise to anyone to choose and fit only room sealed gas appliances.

 

It's a pity you chose the week to call when our techincal advice chaps are away from the office. I'm certain that Dave would have pointed you to the quote in 5482:3 that I rather failed on.

 

By way of help on the semantics side though, when writing the 2005version of the Essential Guide, we carefully extracted the 'shoulds' and replaced with 'musts' for the very reason you have hit on. However, other code writers, possibly even as late 2005 or even today, often use the word should in the obilgatory sense rather than in an advisory meaning. I could be wrong in regard to this particular code, but if it has the potential to affect insurance policies and cover and claims, it may be worth yet another bit of 'due dilligence', I'm not sure who you would ask though.

 

HTH

Rob@BSSOffice

[MtB]

Hi Rob,

 

This leads on to the ever-interesting question of what obligation exists for anyone to comply with PD 5482:3 2005, or any other standard, British or European. Even if a court decided that 'should' actually means the same as 'must' in the context of the standard, why should anyone worry about complying?

 

The answer for houses, residential boats etc lies in the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998. They say vague stuff like "no person shall install an appliance in a manner which represents a danger to any occupant" (not a direct quote). Gas engineers need better than that though. Concrete rules are needed to follow so they can defend themselves in court if necessary. The British Standards and PD 5482 are those concrete rules, so complying with the BSs and the PDs allows a gas installer to prove he also complied with the Gas Regs.

 

The difficulty arises with leisure craft. The Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998 do NOT apply to leisure craft. The only legal obligation to install gas things safely as I understand it is the general 'duty of care' we all have not to injure or kill our fellow citizens through being negligent. Until the Boat Safety Scheme came on the scene that is! Now the BSS has to be complied with in order to get a licence to cruise the waterways. The BSS has considerable clout therefore. If the BSS demands compliance with PD 5482:3 then THAT would be the obligation and enforcement, but it doesn't. It is a whole new(ish) set of rules based, as I understand it, on PD5482:3, but not quite the same. The bit in PD5482:3 about all appliances being installed except cookers having to be room-sealed does not appear in the BSS as far as I can see.

 

So looping back to my original question it looks to me as though I can ignore PD 5482:3 and install an open flue water heater in my boat and still get a BSS certificate, but if I lived on it I could not. So Jim's boatyard was actually right, if his Morco was a new installation. If it was a replacement for an existing open flue water heater they are wrong and PD 5482:3 still allows it and the Gas Regs therefore also allow it even if it is a residential boat.

 

Do you think my understanding is now correct?

 

Cheers, Mike

[Speedwheel]

I used to have a Rinnai (think that is how it is spelt). Was very good.

[bag 'o' bones]

Just as a matter of interest without gettting into all of the advisory stuff, surely if you fit an instantaneous gas heater that works on one of those 'flame safe' piezo type systems then as long as the flue works properly as in fitted by a 'competant person' and tested satisfactorly with a smoke stick then all the conventional safety stuff is a bit of a colourful guff? I'm not trying to be a clever dick by any means but it seems to me as just another wad of legislation that has little benefit it in the real world.

[MtB]

Just as a matter of interest without gettting into all of the advisory stuff, surely if you fit an instantaneous gas heater that works on one of those 'flame safe' piezo type systems then as long as the flue works properly as in fitted by a 'competant person' and tested satisfactorly with a smoke stick then all the conventional safety stuff is a bit of a colourful guff? I'm not trying to be a clever dick by any means but it seems to me as just another wad of legislation that has little benefit it in the real world.

 

Hi bones,

 

Sadly I think the attitude shown in your post is shared by many punters and is one of the reasons we have the regulations, codes of practice, BSS etc in the first place. Your summary of what make a gas installation 'safe' shows just how easy it is to overlook some pretty fundamental safety considerations - what if the instantaneous heat leaks gas like a sieve for example? Do gas leaks fall into the 'a bit of colourful guff' category?

 

However, I think you are confusing 'safety' with 'compliance with regulations' which is what this thread is about.

 

Gas safety is not an absolute, it comes in degrees. Common sense says a correctly working open-flued appliance is no more dangerous when it is a new installation than when it replaces an old open flued appliance, yet PD 5482:3 2005 implies otherwise. In this case I'm inclined to agree with your sentiment on the face of it, but this particular reg is there in order to impose an upward bias towards higher safety standards as time goes by. New boats may not have open-flued appliances. Room sealed is demonstrably safer that open flued. It's hard to argue with that from a safety POV, and that's the benefit the regs offer in the real world. They ALL address some safety risk or other that has resulted in accident and injury or death to users.

 

Cheers, Mike

Edited March 30, 2009 by mike bryant

[MoominPapa]

but this particular reg is there in order to impose an upward bias towards higher safety standards as time goes by. New boats may not have open-flued appliances. Room sealed is demonstrably safer that open flued. It's hard to argue with that from a safety POV, and that's the benefit the regs offer in the real world. They ALL address some safety risk or other that has resulted in accident and injury or death to users.

But the "upward bias towards higher safety standards" comes with costs. It comes with the same costs that occur in house installations; the need to make, pay for and dispose of fans, pressure senors, a gas-tight enclosure and control electronics, but on a boat it comes with an additional heavy cost, the need for a constant supply of electricity from a precious and limited supply. And don't forget repair costs: modern gas appliances are radically less reliable.

 

This bias raises wider questions. I'm sure when the electricity installation industry mandated RCDs and all the rest, it was as much motivated by the money to be made supplying and installing the things as by safety. And the building regs, and safety standards on cars, and the millions spent per life saved on the railways, and the millions on accessibility after the DDA, and the HSE at work act and, and.....

 

The GDP per head has more than doubled in my lifetime and we have to find something to spend all that wealth on, but maybe we shouldn't be trying to double it again. One good way to do that would be give back choice over this stuff. If I'm happy to live in a house of a standard that was good enough for my grandparents, don't make me pay twice as much (and work twice as hard) for one built to higher standards.

 

 

Today's rant, brought to you by:

MP.

[Tim Doran]

After advice from people on this forum i have installed a morco D61b and im very very pleased with it. it was very easy to install, the hardest part was jigsawing the flu hole.

 

With respect to the "only if its a replacement" bit, could you claim that you have just replaced a heater that 'broke'?

 

Tim