Red Diesel & White Diesel

[AlanH]

Phylis,

 

Are you saying your seller of 'red' is charging £1.22 per litre where that litre is made up as 0.6 litres propulsion & 0.4 litres other ?

 

If so I calculate they are charging (in round numbers) 96 pence per litre for the lower taxed component, and £1.39 per litre for that where the extra duty is being added.

 

If that's what you mean, you are being seriously ripped off, and the prices being charged should be massively less than that.

 

I'm not up to speed on latest price cuts, but I'd be disappointed if canal outlets were not at least 25 pence per litre less than that, (i.e. well below an average of £1 per litre for a 60/40 split).

 

Of course if you are in an area with little competition they can charge what they like, which may be the problem.

 

I think this may be why there seems to be a bit of a disconnect in this thread. If you are paying what you are paying, a trip to Tescos starts to sound a good option. If you are paying more typical canal prices, then buying canal-side 'red' on a 60/40 split would often be cheaper than buying all 'white' so the hassle of carting it to the boat doesn't seem worth the potential savings to many people.

 

Alan

 

 

Phylis,

 

Are you saying your seller of 'red' is charging £1.22 per litre where that litre is made up as 0.6 litres propulsion & 0.4 litres other ?

 

 

 

I think this may be why there seems to be a bit of a disconnect in this thread. If you are paying what you are paying, a trip to Tescos starts to sound a good option. If you are paying more typical canal prices, then buying canal-side 'red' on a 60/40 split would often be cheaper than buying all 'white' so the hassle of carting it to the boat doesn't seem worth the potential savings to many people.

 

Alan

Certainly is a rip off at those prices. At a 60/40 split I've just filled up at 86p/l whiuch is a lot less than any garage around here.

[estwdjhn]

I communicated a few times with the Government Minister responsible for the change (Angela Eagles MP) and, at no time, did she use that reason. She stated first of all that they were not allowed to differentiate by user-group under the EU regs (ie: boaters couldn't get a dispensation). When I pointed out that she was allowed to differentiate on product quality (viz: red diesel is a poorer fuel than white diesel), she agreed but stated that to charge less for a more polluting fuel would send the wrong message. This is a specious argument because boaters will still continue to use red diesel generally due to the inconvenience of transporting white diesel and the lower price for heating diesel. It's all to do with tax revenue and little to do with appearing "green".

 

The single rate for propulsion, under the EU regs, is only for the same fuel and white diesel and red diesel are not the same fuel.

 

Chris

 

Yes, but if Mayalld is correct, it would then be legal to use undyed gas oil in diesel cars having paid 21p a litre tax rather than 43p. Cue eveyone starts drivng round on Gas oil at about 75p a litre, and the government going bankcrupt.

[mayalld]

Yes, but if Mayalld is correct, it would then be legal to use undyed gas oil in diesel cars having paid 21p a litre tax rather than 43p. Cue eveyone starts drivng round on Gas oil at about 75p a litre, and the government going bankcrupt.

 

Exactly!

[chris w]

Yes, but if Mayalld is correct, it would then be legal to use undyed gas oil in diesel cars having paid 21p a litre tax rather than 43p. Cue eveyone starts drivng round on Gas oil at about 75p a litre, and the government going bankcrupt.

But from where are you going to obtain undyed gas oil?

[Dominic M]

Yes, but if Mayalld is correct, it would then be legal to use undyed gas oil in diesel cars having paid 21p a litre tax rather than 43p. Cue eveyone starts drivng round on Gas oil at about 75p a litre, and the government going bankcrupt.

But it would not be difficult for the government to ban the sale of "white" gas oil to road vehicles, would it?

[Sir Nibble]

I communicated a few times with the Government Minister responsible for the change (Angela Eagles MP) and, at no time, did she use that reason. She stated first of all that they were not allowed to differentiate by user-group under the EU regs (ie: boaters couldn't get a dispensation). When I pointed out that she was allowed to differentiate on product quality (viz: red diesel is a poorer fuel than white diesel), she agreed but stated that to charge less for a more polluting fuel would send the wrong message. This is a specious argument because boaters will still continue to use red diesel generally due to the inconvenience of transporting white diesel and the lower price for heating diesel. It's all to do with tax revenue and little to do with appearing "green".

 

The single rate for propulsion, under the EU regs, is only for the same fuel and white diesel and red diesel are not the same fuel.

 

Chris

This stuff makes me fume!

Get with the programme and learn to use e-mail! send a letter! make a phone call! or even speak English to my face.

LEGISLATION IS NOT THERE TO "SEND A MESSAGE".

[magpie patrick]

A lot of you are forgetting how we got to this and that narrow boats, or even the inland market were not the main drivers for the current position.

 

When the derogation was lost the government could have done what the majority of EU governments do and told leisure boats to use white diesel, you may recall a case where a british yachtsman was charged by the dutch authorities for having red in his tank, as they were unaware that it was legal here.

 

Several representations were made by the BMIF and others, two particular points came to the fore:

 

1) That bunkering stations were not going to stock both red and white, and there are areas of the UK where commercial boats (mainly fishing fleets) are dominant and these could become no go areas for leisure motor boats if they were not allowed to fill with red

 

2) that red diesel is not ULS whereas whereas white diesel is, and many boat engines are not suitable for ULS

 

The government accepted the first point but not the second, the reason they didn't accept the second was that in some areas (such as the Channel Islands and I think the Western Islands) red diesel IS ULS with a red dye added, because of problems procuring the ordinary stuff. Thus the government pointed out that many coastal boaters were already using ULS.

 

On the basis of 1) above the government decided that leisure boats should be allowed to use red, but would have to pay the full tax on it.

 

You may all think that the "tax message" on non-ULS is spurious, but it is only fairly recently that filling station diesel became ULS, and for a while filling stations offered both. The government gave a tax break on ULS to get drivers to use it, much as they did with unleaded. There is no reason now whey a filling station can't sell non-ULS, but as it's taxed higher and modern cars can use ULS, they would sell very little. As for banning non-ULS, some vintage diesel engined vehicles need it, and anyway the government have enought trouble stopping motorists using red diesel!

 

There is no reason for the canals why the government couldn't have just said "use white". Practically all the users are pleasure boats and the few who are entitled to untaxed diesel have their own supplies (e.g. the LaFarge gravel barges) but tax doesn't differentiate between inland and coastal boats, just as tax on propulsion fuel doesn't differentiate between boats and road vehicles.

 

Having got it accepted that red diesel could be used, the argument then came that boat engines are run for other purposes, such as hot water and electrical power. The government then developed the percentage split. It has never been explained how they think you should calculate your split, but I would be surprised if they had anything more complicated in mind than "under way" (propulsion) and "moored up" (domestic)

 

However, the bottom line is, without our coastal brethren we'd probably being using white and paying 100% propulsion.

[chris w]

I don't believe this to be the whole story. Had they made it an "all white" regime then many, if not most, canal/river marinas would have stopped selling diesel altogether because of the large cost (~£20K) and the hassle involved in swapping from one fuel to the other. This cost includes heightened security measures too as white diesel is more attractive to thieves than red.

 

The result would have been severe procurement difficulties for inland boaters and vastly increased pollution as we slop the transported white diesel into our tanks.

 

Chris

Edited January 6, 2009 by chris w

[magpie patrick]

I don't believe this to be the whole story. Had they made it an "all white" regime then many, if not most, canal/river marinas would have stopped selling diesel altogether because of the large cost (~£20K) and the hassle involved in swapping from one fuel to the other. This cost includes heightened security measures too as white diesel is more attractive to thieves than red.

 

The result would have been severe procurement difficulties for inland boaters and vastly increased pollution as we slop the transported white diesel into our tanks.

 

Chris

 

Yes, but that argument wasn't put to the government. It was, however, put by the government to the EU. The EU's response was that the derogation was temporary, so we either had to deal with the issue now or deal with it in seven years time when the next derogation ended, and thus it wasn't a reason for continuing derogation.

 

In fairness I think the BMIF did suggest that some dealers would stop selling, but it wouldn't take long for businesses to work out that if no one sold diesel, there'd be far fewer boats moving and thus no other trade would be done either. In time, new outlets would open.

 

If you are really looking for blame, it should be targeted at whoever first agreed to a derogation, rather than simply refusing to play ball, because when the derogation was agreed, the principle was accepted that one day we would have to pay full tax on our boat fuel.

 

 

1) That bunkering stations were not going to stock both red and white, and there are areas of the UK where commercial boats (mainly fishing fleets) are dominant and these could become no go areas for leisure motor boats if they were not allowed to fill with red

 

This was the one argument the government accepted, which meant they continue to allow us to use red, but at a higher tax rate

[Hairy-Neil]

As for banning non-ULS, some vintage diesel engined vehicles need it,!

 

Some vintage (read old) petrol engines need leaded 4 star. It didn't stop them banning that......

[magpie patrick]

Some vintage (read old) petrol engines need leaded 4 star. It didn't stop them banning that......

 

True, but not quite: there is an additive you can buy, and 1% of production is leaded for use by vintage vehicles. There used to be a garage in Chepstow that sold it, and may still be!

[RLWP]

Some vintage (read old) petrol engines need leaded 4 star. It didn't stop them banning that......

 

Shh, not so loud. I haven't told my MG yet so it still thinks it's getting 4-star instead of UL.

 

Richard

[Hairy-Neil]

True, but not quite: there is an additive you can buy, and 1% of production is leaded for use by vintage vehicles. There used to be a garage in Chepstow that sold it, and may still be!

 

 

Substitutes are seldom the same. Butter or margarine? Minced beef or textured vegetable protein? Natural or silicon enhanced?

 

Some performance engines are not happy with unleaded with or without additives, early fuel injection systems such as the Triumph TR6 hate the stuff. Some engines can be fitted with hardened valve seats, on others this is impossible.

[RLWP]

Substitutes are seldom the same. Butter or margarine? Minced beef or textured vegetable protein? Natural or silicon enhanced?

 

Some performance engines are not happy with unleaded with or without additives, early fuel injection systems such as the Triumph TR6 hate the stuff. Some engines can be fitted with hardened valve seats, on others this is impossible.

 

Faced with the great unleaded problem I thought about converting the Midget. I could take the head off and have hardened valve seats fitted, change the timing and carry on. If I didn't eventually the lack of lead would damage the valve seats and I would have to take the head off and have hardened valve seats fitted. So, pay now or later??

 

I did about 30,000 miles without problems and only eventually changed the head because I got an MG Metro one (bigger valves!).

 

Richard

[Naughty Cal]

We have never bothered with the Fiesta or the sierra, they just get what they are given. Depends where we are. If we are anywhere near Castleton they get 4 star if not unleaded it is. Doesnt seem to be doing them any harm.

 

The Fiesta certainly should have 4 star, the Sierra was on the change over year so could be either.

 

Unleaded is a funny bugger as well. My old Nissan Sunny got addicted to Super unleaded and refused to run on the ordinary stuff. The new Datsun needless to say only has the run of the mill 95 octane fuel. Not falling for that one again.

[Hairy-Neil]

and 1% of production is leaded for use by vintage vehicles. There used to be a garage in Chepstow that sold it, and may still be!

 

Not quite true. 1% of production is allowed to be leaded. That's not to say the quota is all taken up.

 

To use it in my classics would mean an 80 mile round trip for a fill up, and have you seen the price....

 

There are 36 garages in the whole of the UK shown as stockists here:-

 

clicky

 

Some of those no longer keep it, my nearest being one of those.....

[magpie patrick]

Not quite true. 1% of production is allowed to be leaded. That's not to say the quota is all taken up.

 

To use it in my classics would mean an 80 mile round trip for a fill up, and have you seen the price....

 

There are 36 garages in the whole of the UK shown as stockists here:-

 

clicky

 

Some of those no longer keep it, my nearest being one of those.....

 

Neil, I'm not picking on you personally and I do know that the situation for classic car owners is not ideal to say the least. The point I'm trying to make is that setting up the entire system to suit canal boaters is a lot less straightforward than some people here would wish to believe, given that the Government was painted into a corner by it's predecessor over red diesel.

 

There are a couple of differences between the examples of leaded petrol and non-ULS diesel that make banning the latter from road vehicles a lot more problematic. One is that there are other legitimate uses for non-ULS, including farm machinery, generators and domestic heating, so it will remain available even if it's use is illegal, there aren't many legitimate uses for leaded petrol where unleaded wouldn't do, and there is no tax concession for the use of petrol (leaded or not) for other purposes. Further, a modern car can not run on leaded petrol without wrecking the catalyst, so even if it were free most motorists wouldn't use it, whereas most diesel cars are ok on non-ULS diesel or even central heating fuel (or if you are a Merthyr taxi driver, Mazola!) so there is an incentive to using it in its tax free form. I should imagine HMRC's worst nightmare would be white non-ULS diesel at a lower rate of tax but banned from cars, enforcing that would be a nightmare.

 

To be honest, the problems faced by Neil and others in getting leaded petrol for older cars shows that HMRC could have made it a lot worse for us. We are perhaps not as small a portion of the market (or the electorate) as classic car users, but we are not exactly a force to be reckoned with

[Hairy-Neil]

Neil, I'm not picking on you personally and I do know that the situation for classic car owners is not ideal to say the least.

 

No problem, my own classic cars run fine on unleaded. I'm just being the DA....

 

I also have an historic lorry fitted with a Gardner 6LX that hates ULS derv.

 

We are perhaps not as small a portion of the market (or the electorate) as classic car users, but we are not exactly a force to be reckoned with

 

I would be very surprised if there are less classic vehicle owners in the UK than owners of diesel engined boats.. Most boaters tend to just stick with the one as well....

[mayalld]

Some vintage (read old) petrol engines need leaded 4 star. It didn't stop them banning that......

 

They didn't.

 

Real leaded (not LRP, real BS4040 4-star) is still available in a small number of outlets

[RLWP]

I would be very surprised if there are less classic vehicle owners in the UK than owners of diesel engined boats.. Most boaters tend to just stick with the one as well....

 

Well, you own at least two classic vehicles and I guess one diesel engined boat. I own three classic vehicles and one diesel engined boat, so your proposition is looking good so far!

 

Richard

 

Hang on, that's still only two boat owners and two classic vehicle owners. Damn...

[carlt]

Well, you own at least two classic vehicles and I guess one diesel engined boat. I own three classic vehicles and one diesel engined boat, so your proposition is looking good so far!

 

Richard

 

Hang on, that's still only two boat owners and two classic vehicle owners. Damn...

3 classic vehicles and 4 classic boats.

[RLWP]

3 classic vehicles and 4 classic boats.

 

Neil's proposition is looking bad. From our extensive research so far there are exactly the same number of classic car owners and diesel engined boat owners in the UK.

 

Richard

[mayalld]

Neil's proposition is looking bad. From our extensive research so far there are exactly the same number of classic car owners and diesel engined boat owners in the UK.

 

Richard

 

I don't own a classic car.

 

HTH

[Hairy-Neil]

They didn't.

 

Real leaded (not LRP, real BS4040 4-star) is still available in a small number of outlets

 

 

Well aware of that and I made a link in post 66 to the 36 garages in the UK that might sell it....

 

My nearest on the list, a 30 mile round trip, has discontinued it but is still on the website. The next nearest is an 80 mile round trip. My cars do about 200 miles on a tank full.....

 

 

Neil's proposition is looking bad. From our extensive research so far there are exactly the same number of classic car owners and diesel engined boat owners in the UK.

 

Richard

 

I had 21 last time I looked.....

[mayalld]

Well aware of that and I made a link in post 66 to the 36 garages in the UK that might sell it....

 

My nearest on the list, a 30 mile round trip, has discontinued it but is still on the website. The next nearest is an 80 mile round trip. My cars do about 200 miles on a tank full.....

 

But you don't drive the car to the garage. You take it on a trailer.