buying deisel

[valrene9600]

The supplier can advertise BEFORE the sale that he/she will only sell diesel on the basis of a 60/40 split for example. If that split does not suit you, then you either have to make a false declaration or find another diesel supplier. There is nothing illegal, unfortunately, about a supplier's having a rigid split policy. There is another thread, recently started, in which we are listing all the suppliers who have stated that they will serve ANY split to us. (including banana split )

 

Chris

 

The topic is NOT about who will serve ANY split. It is about what suppliers terms of sale are be it 60/40-fixed price-you tell them % and not just what supplier will give you what you want even if they know you`re lying.

It`s for us boaters to make a decision as to where we buy fuel.

EDIT It`s up to the purchaser if he wants to make a false declaration and risk the comebacks

Edited November 14, 2008 by valrene9600

[chris w]

The topic is NOT about who will serve ANY split. It is about what suppliers terms of sale are be it 60/40-fixed price-you tell them % and not just what supplier will give you what you want even if they know you`re lying.

It`s for us boaters to make a decision as to where we buy fuel.

You misunderstand. By "any split" I meant, the suppliers who will serve any split that we make on our declaration. Some suppliers have stated that they will not accept any declaration other than 60/40 because of the admin issues (ie: they can't do sums!!).

 

The previous poster was querying the legality of a diesel supplier's enforcing a pre-designated split. Unfortunately it is legal - you thenhave to make the decison whether a 60/40 split is correct for you or else go to a different supplier.

 

Chris

[valrene9600]

You misunderstand. By "any split" I meant, the suppliers who will serve any split that we make on our declaration. Some suppliers have stated that they will not accept any declaration other than 60/40 because of the admin issues (ie: they can't do sums!!).

 

The previous poster was querying the legality of a diesel supplier's enforcing a pre-designated split. Unfortunately it is legal - you thenhave to make the decison whether a 60/40 split is correct for you or else go to a different supplier.

 

Chris

 

 

Fair enough, I just didn`t want members to think i was setting up a list of don`t give a dam suppliers. It seems HMRC allow boaters to declare and I am trying to get a list so we can decide for ourselves who to buy from. If your declaration is a sham then that`s for the buyer to take the risk of prosecution as he has signed the % declaration at the supplier.

[chris w]

Fair enough, I just didn`t want members to think i was setting up a list of don`t give a dam suppliers. It seems HMRC allow boaters to declare and I am trying to get a list so we can decide for ourselves who to buy from. If your declaration is a sham then that`s for the buyer to take the risk of prosecution as he has signed the % declaration at the supplier.

 

Actually it doesn't matter if the supplier gives a damn or not. They have no say in what we might declare as boaters. The HMRC document asks the supplier to "point out" to a boater that his/her declaration may be unrealistic but the supplier has no legal right whatsoever to refuse a declaration (unless advertised before the sale as per the previous posts) and the supplier will suffer no comeback from HMRC whatsoever if a particular declaration is subsequently found to be false.

 

Chris

Edited November 14, 2008 by chris w

[mrbeats]

Actually it doesn't matter if the supplier gives a damn or not. They have no say in what we might declare as boaters. The HMRC document asks the supplier to "point out" to a boater that his/her declaration may be unrealistic but the supplier has no legal right whatsoever to refuse a declaration (unless advertised before the sale as per the previous posts) and the supplier will suffer no comeback from HMRC whatsoever if a particular declaration is subsequently found to be false.

 

Chris

Oh dear here we go.

So if I declare a 60/40 spilt at purchase because I'm miles away from any other supplier and may find myself at such a marina's mercy who insists on a 60/40 which could well be the case, and then inform the law that i had no choice as I was forced to buy fuel at that rate but in fact use a 90/10 rate am I liable for false declaration?

 

Surely thats not right or fair?

 

Can BW not step in?

[mayalld]

Oh dear here we go.

So if I declare a 60/40 spilt at purchase because I'm miles away from any other supplier and may find myself at such a marina's mercy who insists on a 60/40 which could well be the case, and then inform the law that i had no choice as I was forced to buy fuel at that rate but in fact use a 90/10 rate am I liable for false declaration?

 

Surely thats not right or fair?

 

Can BW not step in?

 

What on earth is it to do with BW?

 

If you don't like the range of splits offered by a supplier, buy from a different supplier!

 

BTW, I have yet to hear of a supplier who won't do a 100/0 split, so you can always buy at 100/0 if you are stuck, or you can walk to a roadside station, and buy white in a jerrycan.

[bottle]

I believe that one of the BWML marina's is one of those only selling at 60/40 or 100/0 unless you are on their marina.

[carlt]

I believe that one of the BWML marina's is one of those only selling at 60/40 or 100/0 unless you are on their marina.

Doesn't operating a two-tier system, favouring your residents, make things even more complicated?

 

Further highlighting the fact that BW is not fit for purpose!

[chris w]

Surely thats not right or fair?

No-one ever promised us a fair life. The choice is yours. If 60/40 is not your correct split but you're out of diesel and have to buy there, then you are making a false declaration either way (which is YOUR choice not the suppliers). Either your false declaration will result in your paying too much duty (I'm sure HMRC won't be concerned at this!) or your false declaration will deprive HMRC of revenue which will be an offence.

 

However, note that the supplier would be acting (commercially) illegally if they don't tell you about its being a 60/40 split BEFORE they fill your boat up. In that case, you can legally refuse to cooperate and insist on paying the correct split.

 

Chris

[magpie patrick]

I'd have thought, if you are so short of fuel that you must fill up at a particular location, the most honest approach would be fill up with just enough to get you buy: at this point you declare 60/40 because you have to, but you can then amend it next time and as you've only bought (say) 30 litres then it wouldn't be difficult.

 

But are there any yards who won't sell at 100% propulsion rate? This may be a false declaration but it's not one that will worry HMRC: again, buy 20 or 30 litres and then find another yard. A bit like if you get short of fuel on the motorway and just put a fivers worth in to get you off and to a cheaper garage.

[blackrose]

Pasted from the other thread on this topic:

 

Please understand - as a tax collector (retailer), if you get VAT wrong, HMRC will rip your head off and spit down your neck (commercially speaking of course) - I mean they will kill your business, they will close you down, really they can and they do! I am in a totally different business to these diesel retailers, but I collect full 17.5% VAT on everything I sell, regardless of what it might be rated at. It is technically wrong, but HMRC are happy to ignore this because there is no possibility of any tax slipping through the net. It is a commercial decision I made many years ago to protect my business, based on my previous experiences of HMRC/VAT. It may occasionally loose me some customers, but I get to stay in business. If I were a diesel retailer, until the dust settles on his very sloppy system, I would be following those retailers who dictate the split.

 

Why would anyone get it wrong? You've only got to look at a simple spreadsheet (see post 77 on this thread). If someone can't get that right then HMRC have every right to shut them down.

Edited November 14, 2008 by blackrose

[TheWilk]

WTF???

 

From Towpath Talk

 

Red diesel

Added: Tuesday 18th of November 2008

 

THE first day of November was a red letter day for boaters with the latest announcement from HM Revenue & Customs.

 

HMR&C confirmed that they now intend the lower (energy) rate of five per cent VAT to apply to the whole supply of red diesel, whether used for domestic energy consumption on a vessel, or propulsion, rather than the general rate of 17.5 per cent. A guidance note relating to the change is available at www.hmrc.gov.uk/briefs/excise-duty/brief4908.htm

 

The HMRC link in that article states that there are two levels of VAT, but that seems to imply it's 5% for all?

 

I love how much effort was made into notifying boaters of this change. I discovered when I tried to fill my tank up in the second week of November that the change had come in and nowhere on the Lancaster now sells diesel. I was hoping to sell my car after Christmas but now I'll have to do trips up and down the A6 every couple of weeks so I can tip jerrycans of diesel into the cut my tank.

 

Oh and how do I claim back the duty I'm paying on unleaded to power my generator, seeing as I'm not propelling anything?

[bottle]

Not Quite,

 

There are two rates of 'duty' one for propulsion and one for heating/generation and only one rate of VAT (5%) for both.

 

From the document.

 

Both elements, propulsion and domestic, are eligible for the reduced rate of VAT (5%).

 

As to being able to claim back from HMRC, I would not like to advise.

[casper ghost]

From the figures quoted we seem to be paying more for our propulsion diesel than cars do for their diesel.

Me and alot of boaters I know simply drive to a roadside garage that sells red diesel and fill a few tubs, they say it's ok for us to buy it and it's less than 70 pence per litre. . I would bet that after a year of this mess things change to make things simpler yet alot more expensive for us boaters.

[alan_fincher]

Well the situation is quite plain, I think.

 

If the 'red' that you purchased from a roadside garage was bought before November 1st, it's fine to use on your boat for any purpose.

 

If you bought it on, or after, November 1st, then you can still use it for heating and power generation.

 

However if you used it for propelling your boat, then that is now illegal.

 

At the end of the day it's up to everybody to make up their own mind about whether they chose to break any particular laws or not, I guess, and face the consequences if caught.

 

Sorry, that was not meant to sound sanctimonious, but I'd argue that if you choose to propel your boat with fuel where the full duty has not been paid, then it would not be reasonable to moan about those who don't pay for licences, or moorings, for example.....

 

Regards,

 

Alan

[bottle]

Hear! Hear!

[casper ghost]

Well the situation is quite plain, I think.

 

If the 'red' that you purchased from a roadside garage was bought before November 1st, it's fine to use on your boat for any purpose.

 

 

I take the point, i'm glad to say that I topped up my tanks and 2 tubs in October, so haven't had to buy any more fuel yet. The point about licence dodgers I don't accept as they are depriving money from the waterways which they use, whereas fuel duty doesn't help the waterways in any way. I'm glad I have a single cilynder engine which does 11 hours to a gallon!

Edited November 23, 2008 by casper ghost