Red Deisel after 1/11/08

[mayalld]

" in their own marina where they know their boats never move "

What has it got to do with them ?

 

 

 

Is not self declaration a right rather than a privilege ?

Yes, self declaration is a right.

 

Buying your fuel from a particular supplier is not a right though.

[magpie patrick]

But at the end of the day its the person who has made the declaration the tax man will go for the supplier is not the enforcing authority you do not have to prove anything to the supplier how could you prove anything in any case walk in the officed with a diesel stove under your arm saying its for this

 

Yes, but the position is this: the fuel is in your tank, you say. "100% propulsion" supplier says "we only do 60/40" do you:

 

pay 60/40 and shut up (thus signing a false declaration)

 

ask the supplier to take all the fuel out again

 

insist on paying the 100% (which the supplier won't accept)

 

shop the supplier

 

One of our friends hires boats and is a tax inspector, there are probably tax inspectors who own boats. Our friend would shop the supplier, at the pump. He'd be on the phone before he left the boatyard. If this boatyard doesn't want to follow the rules they are asking for trouble. I strongly suspect that "encouraging a false declaration" is an offence.

[Pippi Longstocking]

If you do not use 60/40 then you have just made a false declaration and HMRC could come after you - from my understanding.

 

However, from reading this - if you consistantly declare 60/40 it looks like HMRC are not going to bother you, it is the people who are delcaring a constant 90/10 and do not have a residential or other permanent mooring and hardly cruise that are going to be checked.

 

As long as the business had all the signed declarations, which they are going to have to keep for ANY declarations (60/40 or otherwise), they are in the clear... same as HMRC checking that you are doing the correct VAT returns - and YES, I have been through a couple of those in the last 18 years... both with NO issues as I kept all the paperwork they needed.

 

 

I'm confused!!! I keep reading about 60/40, 90/10 etc

 

Have I got this right - 60% - propulsion, 40% - domestic?

 

When someone says that they only use 90/10 I am assuming that they mean 10% propulsion and 90% domestic and not the other way around. Surely then that should be 10/90!! How the hell am I supposed to understand what everyone means if they don't put the proportions the same way around!!

[WJM]

"so does that mean you paid £1.28 per ltr for 54 litrs ish for a lower grade fuel as opposed to derv think i would rather go to a garage and pay £1.11 ltr for derv"

 

 

That would make a saving of £9.18. Frankly, I would rather have the diesel poured right into my boat in exchange for a £9.18 premium. £9.18 is not worth the time and effort of lugging 60 or 70kgs of jerry-can about.

 

 

===========================================================

 

And many of you are flippantly ignoring the fact that the supplier will obviously accept 100% propulsion

 

============================================================

 

"How the hell am I supposed to understand what everyone means if they don't put the proportions the same way around!!"

 

It really does not matter - it is the system that is under discussion, regardless of anyone's actual split.

 

 

============================================================

 

I forgot to mention - and it may be important. There was no form to fill in. The only writing that took place was in the supplier's diesel sales log book.

Edited November 3, 2008 by WJM

[Pippi Longstocking]

I'm confused!!! I keep reading about 60/40, 90/10 etc

 

Have I got this right - 60% - propulsion, 40% - domestic?

 

When someone says that they only use 90/10 I am assuming that they mean 10% propulsion and 90% domestic and not the other way around. Surely then that should be 10/90!! How the hell am I supposed to understand what everyone means if they don't put the proportions the same way around!!

 

 

And another thing - I can't see anyone querying it if you consistently declare 90/10 - the taxman will be laughing all the way to the bank!!

[bottle]

Pipi

 

The declaration will be propulsion/domestic that is the way HMRC refer to it.

 

I think you understand this, maybe it was a typo.

[Pippi Longstocking]

Pipi

 

The declaration will be propulsion/domestic that is the way HMRC refer to it.

 

I think you understand this, maybe it was a typo.

 

Yes Keith, thankyou. I thought so, so why do others keep putting it the wrong way round. I've been reading the whole of this thread for hours now and it seems that it has happened in lots of posts - they can't all be typos surely?

 

Pipi

[david and julie]

So you do the returns carefully, or employ an accountant.

 

There isn't really any excuse for getting the returns wrong, only imaginary ones dreamt up by people who are not prepared to recogniose the responsibilities of running their own company. I always found thet the HMRC were more than willing to offer help and advice if a problem arose requiring more information.

Actually I disagree here David, its nothing to do with ones abilities to run a business or whether you use an accountant or not.

 

The problem with HMRC, and VAT in particular, is the guidelines you are expected to work with are often subject to interpretation and vague to say the least. A good example is the Colin Stone barge case widely reported and even discussed on here.

 

I currently have an issue with HMRC. I was told I was wrong in my interpretation by two different solicitors and also by two different accountants but my gut feeling was that its them that have it wrong.

 

As the VAT involved is over £90K I can't afford to be wrong, so as a last resort I am now using a specialist chartered VAT consultant who is also ex Hmrc, he has agreed 100% with my interpretation and has said the other "professionals" are completely wrong, even worse, had I taken their "advice" It would now be too late to do anything about it.

 

He has advised I wait until I have it in writing from the VAT people before I do anything else. The problem is they are not in any kind of rush to be helpful. They have a three week window to reply to E mails or letters, which is ridiculous.

 

Employing solicitors or accountants, indeed any professional(including specialist VAT consultants ) is no guarantee whatsoever that you will get the VAT right. Indeed if it all went pear shaped the "professionals" would have a long list of caveats to hide behind.

[magpie patrick]

===========================================================

 

And many of you are flippantly ignoring the fact that the supplier will obviously accept 100% propulsion

 

============================================================

============================================================

 

I forgot to mention - and it may be important. There was no form to fill in. The only writing that took place was in the supplier's diesel sales log book.

 

Are you saying that your supplier will accept 100% propulsion, as that wasn't clear! We are not being flippant, we just assume that not accepting any other split mean exactly that!

[bottle]

Pippi

 

It may be Dyscalculia (number blindness) or they just do not understand the Hmrc guidelines.

 

Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyscalculia

[Pippi Longstocking]

"so does that mean you paid £1.28 per ltr for 54 litrs ish for a lower grade fuel as opposed to derv think i would rather go to a garage and pay £1.11 ltr for derv"

 

 

That would make a saving of £9.18. Frankly, I would rather have the diesel poured right into my boat in exchange for a £9.18 premium. £9.18 is not worth the time and effort of lugging 60 or 70kgs of jerry-can about.

 

 

===========================================================

 

And many of you are flippantly ignoring the fact that the supplier will obviously accept 100% propulsion

 

============================================================

 

"How the hell am I supposed to understand what everyone means if they don't put the proportions the same way around!!"

 

It really does not matter - it is the system that is under discussion, regardless of anyone's actual split.

 

 

============================================================

 

I forgot to mention - and it may be important. There was no form to fill in. The only writing that took place was in the supplier's diesel sales log book.

 

WJM - of course it matters - Cinimod's statement at 11.03 today makes no sense - that's why I asked!! Pipi

[denboy]

"so does that mean you paid £1.28 per ltr for 54 litrs ish for a lower grade fuel as opposed to derv think i would rather go to a garage and pay £1.11 ltr for derv"

 

 

That would make a saving of £9.18. Frankly, I would rather have the diesel poured right into my boat in exchange for a £9.18 premium. £9.18 is not worth the time and effort of lugging 60 or 70kgs of jerry-can about.

 

 

===========================================================

 

And many of you are flippantly ignoring the fact that the supplier will obviously accept 100% propulsion

 

============================================================

 

"How the hell am I supposed to understand what everyone means if they don't put the proportions the same way around!!"

 

It really does not matter - it is the system that is under discussion, regardless of anyone's actual split.

 

 

============================================================

 

I forgot to mention - and it may be important. There was no form to fill in. The only writing that took place was in the supplier's diesel sales log book.

I think i would rather have a tenner in my pocket than give it away and suspect most folk would

[Cinimod]

And another thing - I can't see anyone querying it if you consistently declare 90/10 - the taxman will be laughing all the way to the bank!!

But if that is what you use that is what you should declare.

 

We invested in an LPG Generator so that we no longer have to run the engine to charge the batteries, and we have a solid fuel stove to heat the boat.

 

SO - the majority of the time we are running the engine it is to move, with only a small amount of that then going to heat the water in the calorifier and charge the batteries. So 90p/10d (does that work p = propulsion/d = domestic)

 

89.66 @ £0.85 = £76.21 - thus far same as pre 1/11/08

Plus;

53.8 litres (60%) @ £0.43 additional tax = £23.13

I make that a grand total of - £99.34 or £1.11 a litre (though I could be wrong)

 

The local places around Aldermaston/Newbury appear to be still up at 95p/litre BEFORE extras, so based on this filling would come in at around £1.21/litre

 

(Local Petrol/Diesel prices link)

The pumps in the area for Diesel range from £1.07 to £1.18 - so by going white you could save between £2.70 and £12.55 which is really not worth the bother...

 

However based on 90p/10d - I would be paying £1.34 a litre - so by going white I could save between £14.07 and £23.94 - still not really worth the bother of lugging and hassle of filling/storing

 

Also it is good to support your local boat yard, otherwise they will stop selling diesel - there are already some smaller places on the K&A considering this which could leave long stretches without diesel.

[alan_fincher]

The declaration will be propulsion/domestic that is the way HMRC refer to it.

Being pedantic, (well I would wouldn't I), the declaration is only for the percentage to be used for propulsion....

 

'I declare that [ ] % of the fuel purchased will be used for propelling a private pleasure craft’.

 

The amount used for 'other' is implied, but not explicitly declared, (and no declaration is made how you are using the "non propulsion" part).

 

I can't see the Revenue taking any great interest in anybody declaring 60% or more for propulsion.

 

It's those declaring percentages smaller than 60% that may need to be able to support their claim.

 

I'm intrigued why people are challenging WJM why he doesn't fill up with 'white' but not why he left it until a couple of days after the November 1st deadline to fill up at all! I suspect getting the cheapest possible outcome is not a top priority for him!

[bottle]

If I have got this right , this supplier is, only willing to supply diesel at 100% propulsion or 100% domestic (or there about for those that do not leave the marina) or 60/40 split propulsion without out the required paperwork being completed.

 

I think he may be on a hiding to nothing if he does not get it all in order.

 

Edit: for the pedant, you know who you are.

Edited November 3, 2008 by bottle

[frahkn]

I think that suppliers insisting on 60:40 is a temporary thing and will die out as the new rules bed in.

 

I am aware of only one member of this forum who is also a tax inspector (of course there may be many more), but of those I do know, 100% would not consider reporting a retailer or a customer in such circumstances. Leaving aside the question of principal, the amounts of duty involved are insignificant.

[WJM]

"Actually I disagree here David, its nothing to do with ones abilities to run a business or whether you use an accountant or not.

The problem with HMRC, and VAT in particular, is the guidelines you are expected to work with are often subject to interpretation and vague to say the least"

 

 

Thank you - my experience also.

[KenK]

But if that is what you use that is what you should declare.

 

We invested in an LPG Generator so that we no longer have to run the engine to charge the batteries, and we have a solid fuel stove to heat the boat.

 

SO - the majority of the time we are running the engine it is to move, with only a small amount of that then going to heat the water in the calorifier and charge the batteries. So 90p/10d (does that work p = propulsion/d = domestic)

 

 

I make that a grand total of - £99.34 or £1.11 a litre (though I could be wrong)

 

The local places around Aldermaston/Newbury appear to be still up at 95p/litre BEFORE extras, so based on this filling would come in at around £1.21/litre

 

(Local Petrol/Diesel prices link)

The pumps in the area for Diesel range from £1.07 to £1.18 - so by going white you could save between £2.70 and £12.55 which is really not worth the bother...

 

However based on 90p/10d - I would be paying £1.34 a litre - so by going white I could save between £14.07 and £23.94 - still not really worth the bother of lugging and hassle of filling/storing

 

Also it is good to support your local boat yard, otherwise they will stop selling diesel - there are already some smaller places on the K&A considering this which could leave long stretches without diesel.

 

For info Greenham island marina is now at 85p a litre, at least he was on Wednesday when I filled up.

 

Ken

[magpie patrick]

I think i would rather have a tenner in my pocket than give it away and suspect most folk would

 

I'm with WJM on this one: how much effort do you go to to save a tenner? I wouldn't use the car to the garage, fill up a Jerry Can, and bring it back (leaving aside the fact I'd need several Jerry cans and probably several trips, all using diesel)

 

See my post on another thread where to fill up before the deadline I'd have had to be away from home for three hours to save £15 overall (I'd save thirty on boat diesel but spend £15 on car deisel: therefore save £15). I don't really regard that as being worth the effort, there are easier ways to earn (or save) £15.

[Yamanx]

I filled up on Friday to avoid paying the new charges.

 

Whilst there, Norbury Junction, I asked about the new method of charging for diesel. They told me they would leave the split entirely "up to me", providing I signed they're paperwork accordingly. I suggested I may go for 50/50, No problem sir, "its entirely up to you"

[David Schweizer]

Actually I disagree here David, its nothing to do with ones abilities to run a business or whether you use an accountant or not.

 

The problem with HMRC, and VAT in particular, is the guidelines you are expected to work with are often subject to interpretation and vague to say the least. A good example is the Colin Stone barge case widely reported and even discussed on here.

 

I currently have an issue with HMRC. I was told I was wrong in my interpretation by two different solicitors and also by two different accountants but my gut feeling was that its them that have it wrong.

 

As the VAT involved is over £90K I can't afford to be wrong, so as a last resort I am now using a specialist chartered VAT consultant who is also ex Hmrc, he has agreed 100% with my interpretation and has said the other "professionals" are completely wrong, even worse, had I taken their "advice" It would now be too late to do anything about it.

 

He has advised I wait until I have it in writing from the VAT people before I do anything else. The problem is they are not in any kind of rush to be helpful. They have a three week window to reply to E mails or letters, which is ridiculous.

 

Employing solicitors or accountants, indeed any professional(including specialist VAT consultants ) is no guarantee whatsoever that you will get the VAT right. Indeed if it all went pear shaped the "professionals" would have a long list of caveats to hide behind.

In that case how can you be sure that the consultant you have now employed has got it right? Is he prepared to forgo the fee if he has got it wrong?

 

I wish you luck with your claim but it is four to one against, based upon the advice you have received so far from five professionals.

[furnessvale]

This is one of the problems isn't it. For easy figures assume you want exactly 100 litres @ 60/40, one would assume you could go to a garage and buy 60L of white and to a marina for the 40L of red. However the marina would want proof that you are residential to do this. The alternative, assuming you wanted an easy life, would be to declare 60/40 on the 40 litres from the marina, anything else and it sounds like you may get flagged up by HMRC.

 

The only true solution is to have twin tanks but unfortunately for most people thats impractical.

 

Buying white for propulsion from the local garage and red from the local marina sounds easy BUT I know that several local marinas would tell you where to go for your red if you tried that with them.

 

I used to run ALTON and I actually started my pumpout business because local marinas refused to pump out boats unless they also bought diesel from them. Result...not only did I have a coal/diesel business but I also built up a decent pumpout side as well.

 

George

[david and julie]

In that case how can you be sure that the consultant you have now employed has got it right? Is he prepared to forgo the fee if he has got it wrong?

 

I wish you luck with your claim but it is four to one against, based upon the advice you have received so far from five professionals.

I have much more faith in the VAT consultant than I have in any of the others, he is one of the North Wests leading experts on VAT matters. Seems a nice down to earth bloke really and hasn't charged me anything yet - he told me to write to the VAT explaining my case and he's confident they'll agree with me - he will only take it up and charge me if they don't.

 

We will have to wait and see, but I personally don't gain eitherway, I just want to make sure my paperwork is 100% in order.

[david and julie]

Buying white for propulsion from the local garage and red from the local marina sounds easy BUT I know that several local marinas would tell you where to go for your red if you tried that with them.

 

I used to run ALTON and I actually started my pumpout business because local marinas refused to pump out boats unless they also bought diesel from them. Result...not only did I have a coal/diesel business but I also built up a decent pumpout side as well.

 

George

 

Welcome to the forum George.

 

I think you have the wrong end of the stick mate, I'm not suggesting people go to the garage for white diesel, you need to read the post I was replying too really.

 

To be honest though, if I had twin tanks theres no way I'd let the local marina dictate to me, be interesting to see how they go on in the recession with that attitude.

[cotswoldsman]

Yes, but the position is this: the fuel is in your tank, you say. "100% propulsion" supplier says "we only do 60/40" do you:

 

pay 60/40 and shut up (thus signing a false declaration)

 

ask the supplier to take all the fuel out again

 

insist on paying the 100% (which the supplier won't accept)

 

shop the supplier

 

Nope I would just pay what I want to declare in my case 20/80 if he wants he can call the police or whatever I am right and he is wrong.