Josher Bows

[Phil Speight]

Another, fine example, of a Josher bow.. !

 

I do hope the exclamation mark means you`re joking !

Cheers

Phil

[dave moore]

I wonder if this is why you sometimes see the front fender capped with a piece of inside-out tyre, to provide a non (less) snag surface?

 

Sorry if I'm off topic...

 

Piston...the inside out tyre covering the bow fender is there to reduce wear rather than reduce friction. Leaving an uphill boat in head gear was usual practice. It kept the stern clear of the bottom gates and helped open the top gates when the lock was full. Another logical and efficient practice now ignored, better(?) it seems to thrash the engine in both gears in a futile attempt to stay in the middle!

Dave

[Phil Speight]

I do hope the exclamation mark means you`re joking !

Cheers

Phil

Apologies - ofcourse you are !

 

Edited to say: Note the correct positioning of the fender, on Lupin, whilst underway.

 

I am intrigued by this comment. I presume that you are saying that some/all working boats removed their bow fender when underway. Why did they do this? I can only surmise that it was either for aesthetic reasons or to reduce the overall length when locking (although this must increase the risk of damage to both the stem post and the lock gates substantially).

Or was there another reason?

Sorry, I have gone

 

Rob

Any of you tell me where the photo of Grace was taken? (sorry no prize)

Un messed about lock gates and unfendered stem bars that are the right shape were actually intended to work together . A front fender merely interferes with the designed process. As others have already said - we`ve lost so much knowledge and good practice that the "wrong" way has nowadays quite often become the "right" way so people up to and including BW are now promoting bad practice and frowning on good.

[NB Esk]

Thanks Tim

The "strapped down" bow fender has long been a niggle with me(and, as I'm on a good grump) the drooping set of starn end fenders too. It was always my understanding that a bow fender had a deliberate weak link so that if fouled it would fall away, but I see so many boats with arrangements that would assist a sinking in some circumstances. Drooping fenders are less dangerous, but equally unaesthetic...the further we get from working boat practices, the worse it gets!

An irrelevant aside...Roger and Martin....I was delighted to see Ilford towed with running blocks at Stone recently, something I'd not seen for years. Perhaps we should create a new thread devoted to almost lost working practices. Several years ago, working downhill single handed, I astounded a following boat by strapping in as I descended (I'll grant that lots of replacement gates no longer have a useable strapping post, more's the pity). What's wrong with efficient and time saving techniques? I know....Elf and Safety!

Cheers

Dave

 

Dave, not heard the term *strapping post* can you elaborate, please...

[dave moore]

Dave, not heard the term *strapping post* can you elaborate, please...

 

Gladly...Many top gates have a raised post on the opening or swinging side of the gate, about 15" higher thanthe level of the balance beam. The idea was (is) that a boat working downhill would enter a lock briskly and as the stern passed the strapping post (gate open) then the boater would take a stout rope from (usually) the offside dolly, wrap a couple of loose turns around the post and let the boat pull the gate to behind it, stopping the boat at the same time. A shake of the rope as the strain is taken up takes the initial shock out of the pull. Typical working boat practice, giving both speed and efficiency. If another crew member was on the bottom paddles, they would be raised at the same time to encourage the gate to close.

Recent gate replacements have shotened the strapping post to a few inches above balance beam level, denying boaters the opportunity to work in an effective way.

I don't always strap in, but it's fun to do for old times' sake.

Dave

[carlt]

Tipcats/stern fenders to be lifted when under way?

 

 

 

Stem fenders must be arranged so that they will lift off if they catch going downhill, and with 'fusible links' (bits of cord or strands of cotton line, usually) which will break if they snag going uphill.

I don't agree about 'no need or use' for stem fenders, but depending on the particular boat and particular lock flight there may be times when they're better kept on the deck when going downhill.

 

Tim

Sorry...with the exception of stern fenders.

 

Front fenders, arranged so they won't snag or hang up, will move out of the way, when you hit something, so they serve no purpose.

 

I've seen front fenders catch on poorly maintained gates, going uphill, so see no reason to have them.

[Timleech]

Sorry...with the exception of stern fenders.

 

Front fenders, arranged so they won't snag or hang up, will move out of the way, when you hit something, so they serve no purpose.

 

Not true at all.

 

Re the tyre covering for Pistonbroke, a 'working' stem fender would generally be a simple bound coil of heavy rope, with an inverted tyre for protection (also helps to hold it together).

Easily made with cross-ply tyres, not so easy with modern car tyres.

Fancy knitwear was reserved for the stern end.

 

Tim

[NB Esk]

Thanks for that, now you describe it, I think I've seen it in an old working vid...

 

Edit to say, for clarity I should have quoted Dave's *strapping post* answer...

Edited October 11, 2008 by PistonBroke

[David Schweizer]

Gladly...Many top gates have a raised post on the opening or swinging side of the gate, about 15" higher thanthe level of the balance beam. The idea was (is) that a boat working downhill would enter a lock briskly and as the stern passed the strapping post (gate open) then the boater would take a stout rope from (usually) the offside dolly, wrap a couple of loose turns around the post and let the boat pull the gate to behind it, stopping the boat at the same time. A shake of the rope as the strain is taken up takes the initial shock out of the pull. Typical working boat practice, giving both speed and efficiency. If another crew member was on the bottom paddles, they would be raised at the same time to encourage the gate to close.

Recent gate replacements have shotened the strapping post to a few inches above balance beam level, denying boaters the opportunity to work in an effective way.

I don't always strap in, but it's fun to do for old times' sake.

Dave

There are still a couple on the Oxford near Kiddlington (or there wre when I last passed that way) and Sutton Stop still has one. I use them if they are present.

Edited October 11, 2008 by David Schweizer

[David Schweizer]

Edited to say: Note the correct positioning of the fender, on Lupin, whilst underway.

Where does this come from? There was no established practice. Some Working Boats carried front fenders whilst underway and in locks. and some did not carry front fenders at all. The one thing I cannot recall is front fenders being carried on the fore deck.

 

I have no doubt that some people have been told what correct practice was by ex-Working Boatmen, but that in itself compounds the confusion, as there was clearly varying practice. I sat with three ex working boatmen at the Braunston Historic Boat show this year, and it was interesting to listen to them disagreeing on what correct practice on a number of issues was in the carrying days.

Edited October 11, 2008 by David Schweizer

[carlt]

Where does this come from? There was no established practice. Some Working Boats carried front fenders whilst underway and in locks. and some did not carry front fenders at all. The one thing I cannot recall is front fenders being carried on the fore deck.

 

I have no doubt that some people have been told what correct practice was by ex-Working Boatmen, but that proves very little. I sat with three ex working boatmen at the Braunston Historic Boat show this year, and it was inrteresting to listen to them disagreeing on what correct practoce on a number if issues was in the carrying days.

It is a practice peculiar to narrow boats, the leaving of fenders dangling. The safest place for a fender, when underway, is stowed away in a locker.

 

 

Not true at all.

Care to elaborate?

 

If they are fastened so they are safe for locking, then they won't stay in place when 15 tons of boat meets obstruction.

Edited October 11, 2008 by carlt

[David Schweizer]

It is a practice peculiar to narrow boats, the leaving of fenders dangling. The safest place for a fender, when underay, is stowed away in a locker.

 

Sorry I do not understand your response. Are you saying that Working boats did or did not carry front fenders whilst underway?

Edited October 11, 2008 by David Schweizer

[carlt]

Sorry I do not understand your response. Are you saying that Working boats did or did not carry front fenders whilst underway?

Like you said, it varied, from boat to boat.

[Timleech]

Care to elaborate?

 

If they are fastened so they are safe for locking, then they won't stay in place when 15 tons of boat meets obstruction.

 

The stem fender is there to cushion a direct impact against cill or gate (usually), that will not dislodge a properly made and properly suspended fender, I don't understand why you seem to be so certain that it will?

 

Tim

[US Marines]

If they are fastened so they are safe for locking, then they won't stay in place when 15 tons of boat meets obstruction.

 

Sorry - don't know the answer (if there is one !) to the question of which is 'right'...

 

But, we understand that the objections raised in this thread relate to the front fender catching when the boat is moving upward/downward in a lock - rather than in a 'head on' bump...

 

Surely, if it is strapped on as in Robkg's photo of Grace : if the boat is moving upward and it catches, then the sacrifical 'string' holding it on will snap (assuming that is has some relatively weak 'string' linking the fender's retaining chain to the boat), letting the fender fall and dangle to one side; if the boat is moving downward and it catches, then the fender will merely be lifted upwards; but in a 'head on' bump, it will protect the bow ?

 

Or have we misunderstood the 'problem' ?

Edited October 11, 2008 by US Marines

[carlt]

but in a 'head on' bump, it will protect the bow ?

 

Or have we misunderstood the 'problem' ?

There is no standard height for fenders so a head on bump, fender to fender, is very rare.

[David Schweizer]

Like you said, it varied, from boat to boat.

Thanks, I understand now

 

I knew a lot of Woking boats in the 1960's, and was particularly familiar with the Blue Line boats. From recollection the Brays and the Whitlocks always carried front fenders,whilst underway and in locks, but the Collins's did not even have one. Whether that had something to do with Roger and Raymond and Ian and Lucy being wooden boats, and Stanton and Belmont being steel I do not know. However it does demonstrate that it is dangerous for people to insist that there is a correct and an incorrect way when historic practice is taken into account.

Edited October 11, 2008 by David Schweizer

[carlt]

The stem fender is there to cushion a direct impact against cill or gate (usually), that will not dislodge a properly made and properly suspended fender, I don't understand why you seem to be so certain that it will?

 

Tim

Because gates are often poorly maintained and fenders are rarely properly hung.

[US Marines]

There is no standard height for fenders so a head on bump, fender to fender, is very rare.

 

Agreed absolutely ! - as demonstrated earlier in this thread, some of those old Josher bows were pretty big - pretty and big in fact - and varied hugely with boat load, whereas a lot of modern boats have relatively low bows....

 

However, if we were on the receiving end of a 'head on' collision with Grace (not that we're accusing Robkg of anything here ) we'd still prefer he had a fender on the front.....

 

Surely, its also still better to have a front fender (rigged like Robkg's) on in a lock though, because the 'bumps' would be with the gates, not another boat....?

Edited October 11, 2008 by US Marines

[Timleech]

Because gates are often poorly maintained and fenders are rarely properly hung.

 

 

????

 

I don't see how that in any way supports your argument

 

Tim

[carlt]

However it does demonstrate that it is dangerous for people to insist that there is a correct and an incorrect way when historic practice is taken into account.

I did a thorough risk assessment and I believe the danger is minimal.

[David Schweizer]

I did a thorough risk assessment and I believe the danger is minimal.

OK "unwise"

[carlt]

????

 

I don't see how that in any way supports your argument

 

Tim

That's okay, it's miles off-topic, anyway.

[alan_fincher]

I normally support most of Carl's arguments about what is sensible to do when working boats, but cannot agree with the suggestion that having a front fender down when underway is a bad idea.

 

If you are suddenly robbed of any stopping power by a bladeful of something undesirable, then they can go some way to lessening an unplanned impact.

 

When we were recently treated to somebody's jogging bottoms around the prop on the approach to a lock, the impact was more than I would have liked, but a lot less than if the metal had struck the gates directly.

 

Ours is hung to move up out of harms way, if it gets caught when descending, but I admit could cause problems going up.

 

However my recent experience says that 30% or more of locks could bow cause a problem going up if you were to let a fenderless front end right against the gates. Although most still have some approximation of rubbing boards, (fender boards ?), in many cases these stop short, and a bow can get trapped under the balance beam. Others have obstructions, or are too narrow, so the bow can slip off one side.

 

I only let my nose rub up a gate after I've been and inspected the rubbing arrangements in place, and satisfied myself it's safe to do so. In this case I'm as safe with the fender down, as with it up.

 

In that historic ("1930s" and "1950s") footage of boats on the Grand Union that was posted recently, I'd say far more of the boats had front fenders deployed, than did not.

[carlt]

In that historic ("1930s" and "1950s") footage of boats on the Grand Union that was posted recently, I'd say far more of the boats had front fenders deployed, than did not.

Not all of my posts are based on what narrow boats did "historically" but, in the case of boating, in general, fenders are usually stowed, when underway and I believe this is best practice. I'd rather lose a bit of paint, off the stem iron, than the whole boat.