Small Engine

[Liam]

As I think most of you already know, I've got a 30ft Mike Heywood narrowboat... at the moment it's got a Sabb 1cyl 10hp engine with a 2:1 gearbox and 16 x 14 prop.

 

I am planning on taking the engine out to see how knackered it is. Hopefully I should either my able to sort it myself or to get somebody else to have a look for me, not being that mechanically minded... the problem that I have is that the back deck is fixed steel apart from a wedge shaped hole in the middle which is covered by a piece of ply. It's wider at the gearbox end so when I had the engine out last time I needed to tip it to get the flywheel out which is closest to the front of the boat. It's not just the actual deck gap that's the problem either... on one side of the engine is the square "skin" tank, and on the other, is a cubby hole which sticks out into the engine bay from the main cabin - it also has a long sharp swim which makes it more of a pain.

 

If the engine does need replacing, does anybody know any smaller sized but powerful enough engines to push my little 30ft'er along? I have looked at other Sabb's but I'm keeping my options open at the moment so any ideas would be appreciated! I know it would help if I had the dimensions of my engine bay but these are currently on the boat, so no help at all!

 

Cheers

Liam

[Guest]

As I think most of you already know, I've got a 30ft Mike Heywood narrowboat... at the moment it's got a Sabb 1cyl 10hp engine with a 2:1 gearbox and 16 x 14 prop.

 

I am planning on taking the engine out to see how knackered it is. Hopefully I should either my able to sort it myself or to get somebody else to have a look for me, not being that mechanically minded... the problem that I have is that the back deck is fixed steel apart from a wedge shaped hole in the middle which is covered by a piece of ply. It's wider at the gearbox end so when I had the engine out last time I needed to tip it to get the flywheel out which is closest to the front of the boat. It's not just the actual deck gap that's the problem either... on one side of the engine is the square "skin" tank, and on the other, is a cubby hole which sticks out into the engine bay from the main cabin - it also has a long sharp swim which makes it more of a pain.

 

If the engine does need replacing, does anybody know any smaller sized but powerful enough engines to push my little 30ft'er along? I have looked at other Sabb's but I'm keeping my options open at the moment so any ideas would be appreciated! I know it would help if I had the dimensions of my engine bay but these are currently on the boat, so no help at all!

 

Cheers

Liam

Vetus do one and two pot engines that should push a 30 footer. They are quite compact, often used for yacht auxiliaries. My 32 footer had a one pot Yanmar YSE12 but they are actually physically quite large.

[denboy]

saab spares are available place escapes me at the min somewhere down south not cheap tho something like sleedons or slidons??

[Liam]

Yep, Sleeman and Hawkes, or something like that.

 

I've been in touch with them about it. They don't offer full units but do spares as you say, but they offer other, complete units which I've been taking a look at.

[Richard T]

Try talking to Union Canal Carriers at Braunston - they have Sabbs in their 'barney boats' and I know from my hiring days that the mechanic is able to do rebuilds.

[Liam]

Richard, thanks for that. Something I will keep in mind.

 

The first plan of action is to get it out of the boat again and then weigh up my options but I'd really like to stick with it.

[David Schweizer]

Try talking to Union Canal Carriers at Braunston - they have Sabbs in their 'barney boats' and I know from my hiring days that the mechanic is able to do rebuilds.

 

That is exactly who I was going to recommend, talk to Jonathon Hewwitt, who "lives" in the Old Pump House behind the UCC offices.

Edited September 29, 2008 by David Schweizer

[magnetman]

although Sabb don't make new engines themselves they do marinise Lister Petter engines for lifeboat use.

 

The engine they use for small boats is the Lister LPW2, renamed the Sabb-Lister when they do their marinising work on them. Lister also sell a marinised version themselves. CWF member Baldock should be able to give you more information on this.

 

I've got the Lister Petter Marine version in my 24ft motorsailer and its a super little engine. Lister LPW2MGR Marine Gear Reduction its got a 2:1 Hurth box on it. Its very small but a fair bit of power. 20HP@3,000rpm but I've never had it flat out. Goes along nicely at about half that. Would seem to be a natural replacement for a Sabb G engine as it is similar dimensions. Being Norwegian (Like SABB) I think my boat would have had a Sabb GG originally fitted - its certainly had an engine change in its lifetime.

 

 

It is water cooled so can be boxed in and is not too noisy.

Edited September 30, 2008 by magnetman

[Teadaemon]

I think Yanmar's smallest (1GM10 or something like that) might suit - it's often found as an auxiliary on 20-25 foot yachts, and has a similar power output to the Sabb you have currently. Personally, if I were after a small marinised diesel engine I'd be checking small ads in PBO, Yachting monthly, etc, as quite a few seagoing yachtie types will replace their engine purely on the grounds that it's 15 or 20 years old (these are also the ones who're likely to have been fastidious about service intervals and routine maintenance, fortunately enough).

[Dr Bradley]

Cut the boat in two. Get the engine out dead easy. Lengthen the boat and put in a bigger engine.

[Proper Job]

Obviously, as you say, the first thing is to get your existing Saab out.

 

I would try everything to get your exisiting unit re-built. They are good little engines and once re-built will last you for many years.(presuming your happy with its performance).

 

One thing when looking at your cost options against re-build or replace: As well as the purchase cost of the 'new' engine, there are a lot of hidden costs in re-engining. Mucking about with engine beds/mountings, different propshaft lengths, couplings etc, etc all adds to the bill.

[sociable_hermit]

Didn't Saab pioneer the use of turbocharging for car engines? If your Saab engine proves to be in good condition, maybe a low pressure turbo is the way to go? More oomph but using very little extra space

 

I originally thought of this as a jokey response, but I'm wondering now... You'd probably need an oil cooler somewhere, and some thicker oil of course. The only other issue would be which window to stick the "ON A MISSION" sticker in

[magnetman]

Didn't Saab pioneer the use of turbocharging for car engines? If your Saab engine proves to be in good condition, maybe a low pressure turbo is the way to go? More oomph but using very little extra space

 

I originally thought of this as a jokey response, but I'm wondering now... You'd probably need an oil cooler somewhere, and some thicker oil of course. The only other issue would be which window to stick the "ON A MISSION" sticker in

 

It's SABB not SAAB. They're different

[sociable_hermit]

Oh **all disappointed now**

[magnetman]

Oh **all disappointed now**

Oh, sorry.

[sociable_hermit]

I've just looked up Sabb. Mate, you can't bin that! Nice old lump of an engine.

 

Given the style and age of the thing, if you'd like more power then supercharging it post-rebuild would be more appropriate. Not sure how much power you'd gain, given the initial drag of turning the blower, but it would be an interesting experiment

 

What's wrong with it, anyway?

[Liam]

I bought the boat from Whixall Marina in 2004. Dont ask me how I managed to get back to the Bridgewater, I have no idea!

 

Later that year I took a trip out to Chester and Ellesmere Port but when I got to Middlewich on the way back I noticed alot of oil coming out of the exhaust. I managed to get back and when I took the engine out and looked inside, one of the conrods had snapped in half and the piston had shatted. Considering its only a single cylinder engine I am very suprised it got me back, but it did!

 

I managed to get a spare engine which suffered from frost damage, swapped the conrod and the piston and got it up and running fine. I think the problem was due to the engine only being fixed down to one engine bearer! In tick over the engine is fine, and when you put the revs on its also fine, its just the complete rev range between that, that the engine bounces about and this cant be doing it or the boat any good. Im worried it will do damage to the engine again.

 

Anyway, I used it for another couple of weeks but the bearers failed again, and I noticed that only 4 of the 6 bearers were being used... so basically only 2 for the engine and 2 for the gearbox, instead of 4 on the engine. I left it over winter and stupdily didnt use anti freeze. Ive not run the engine since so I dont know whether its suffered from this even though I know other boats did on our moorings. Last winter a few palomas were frozen, etc.

 

Along with other things, the main water cooling pipe from the engine to the skin tank has a split in it, the diesel pipe has a leak in it and the starter motor is knackered but most of these things arent related to the actual engine as a unit.

 

What I need to do is get the engine out of the boat, and give it a good coat of looking at before doing, or getting somebody else to work on it.

 

I would very much like to keep the engine - its a classic and although its only 10hp, it doesnt half push my boat along quite happily with the familiar put, put, put.. but if it has to go I would preferably replace it with the same unit.

[magnetman]

I bought the boat from Whixall Marina in 2004. Dont ask me how I managed to get back to the Bridgewater, I have no idea!

 

Later that year I took a trip out to Chester and Ellesmere Port but when I got to Middlewich on the way back I noticed alot of oil coming out of the exhaust. I managed to get back and when I took the engine out and looked inside, one of the conrods had snapped in half and the piston had shatted. Considering its only a single cylinder engine I am very suprised it got me back, but it did!

 

I managed to get a spare engine which suffered from frost damage, swapped the conrod and the piston and got it up and running fine. I think the problem was due to the engine only being fixed down to one engine bearer! In tick over the engine is fine, and when you put the revs on its also fine, its just the complete rev range between that, that the engine bounces about and this cant be doing it or the boat any good. Im worried it will do damage to the engine again.

 

Anyway, I used it for another couple of weeks but the bearers failed again, and I noticed that only 4 of the 6 bearers were being used... so basically only 2 for the engine and 2 for the gearbox, instead of 4 on the engine. I left it over winter and stupdily didnt use anti freeze. Ive not run the engine since so I dont know whether its suffered from this even though I know other boats did on our moorings. Last winter a few palomas were frozen, etc.

 

Along with other things, the main water cooling pipe from the engine to the skin tank has a split in it, the diesel pipe has a leak in it and the starter motor is knackered but most of these things arent related to the actual engine as a unit.

 

What I need to do is get the engine out of the boat, and give it a good coat of looking at before doing, or getting somebody else to work on it.

 

I would very much like to keep the engine - its a classic and although its only 10hp, it doesnt half push my boat along quite happily with the familiar put, put, put.. but if it has to go I would preferably replace it with the same unit.

 

the bit about the engine bearers concerns me. Is it mounted on rubber mounts or on wood? In my experience of this type of engine rigid mounting on wood is better because it is the type of engine which if put on rubber mounts is going to create a lot of stress in the mounts and wear them out quite quickly. The Sabb single also has a balance weight behind the flywheel which if faulty could hammer the engine mounts quite quickly.

 

If the conrod had broken and the piston shattered I'm not sure how the engine kept going. I know they are very good and will run without lube oil to 'get you home' but a shattered piston??

Barney boats had Sabbs fitted and I think they are mounted on wood bearers bolted to the engine beds. Judging by the fact that Barney boats are fundamentally well designed boats I'd say this is probably a good idea.

 

a new starter motor / dynastart will be expensive, which is one of the reasons people tend to look at re-engining rather than rebuilding an existing engine because the cost of parts add up and even if fully rebuilt its still basically quite an old engine. They are lovely engines.

[sociable_hermit]

The pipe repairs are minor, though I'm sure they're not helping your confidence in the engine.

 

As a single it's always going to vibrate I would have thought, it's more a question of sorting out the engine mounts and the propshaft to compensate for this as best you can. For example, it might be possible to use a flexi-drive of some form and that might in turn permit the use of some relatively soft engine mounts, so the thing can bounce around a bit without doing any harm! Sometimes you see motorbikes like this, where the engine can be seen wobbling around in the frames. Mind you, I dunno if they're supposed to be like that!

 

There's no telling whether the frost has done any damage other than having a good look around it for cracks / leaks. Without antifreeze it's a lottery but you may have been lucky.

 

A modern engine would be boring in comparison. They're not necessarily easier to work on, either. The biggest plus point, though, is that you have to work on them less often. But if you're a practical sort of chap I'd stick with the classic.

 

(edited to add)

Interesting that we've come to opposing conclusions about the vibration. I say let it bounce around a bit and design the mounts and drive to suit, whereas Magnetman is saying bolt it down hard. If that's normal practice then please ignore me!

Edited September 30, 2008 by sociable_hermit

[Yoda]

The pipe repairs are minor, though I'm sure they're not helping your confidence in the engine.

 

As a single it's always going to vibrate I would have thought, it's more a question of sorting out the engine mounts and the propshaft to compensate for this as best you can. For example, it might be possible to use a flexi-drive of some form and that might in turn permit the use of some relatively soft engine mounts, so the thing can bounce around a bit without doing any harm! Sometimes you see motorbikes like this, where the engine can be seen wobbling around in the frames. Mind you, I dunno if they're supposed to be like that!

 

There's no telling whether the frost has done any damage other than having a good look around it for cracks / leaks. Without antifreeze it's a lottery but you may have been lucky.

 

A modern engine would be boring in comparison. They're not necessarily easier to work on, either. The biggest plus point, though, is that you have to work on them less often. But if you're a practical sort of chap I'd stick with the classic.

 

(edited to add)

Interesting that we've come to opposing conclusions about the vibration. I say let it bounce around a bit and design the mounts and drive to suit, whereas Magnetman is saying bolt it down hard. If that's normal practice then please ignore me!

 

Magnetman is correct for single cylinder engine. They should be bolted down hard onto wooden bearers.

[John Orentas]

Can't agree with the Hermit, in my view a slow revving single cylinder should always be mounted on timbers, the conventional and I think proven method is to use approx. 3" x 3" oak or similar but the important bit is not to have any metal to metal contact with the hull..

 

The timbers should be bolted to the hull and the engine bolted to the timbers with several inches between fixings, in that way the engine will not be rigidly fixed but will have quite a few 'Thou' of movement but without wagging about, you will also get away with not having an expensive flexible connection in the drive train.

[magnetman]

Could you fit a Lister JP1 in there?

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/lister-jp-9-1-vintag...id=p3286.c0.m14

[carlt]

Now that is pretty.

[David Schweizer]

Liam

 

I saw Jonathon Hewitt yesterday, and he would be more than happy to look at your engine and recommend any re-building that needs to be done.

 

If you could get the engine to Braunston for it to be worked on, give him a ring but contact him on his mobile rather than phone the office. His number is 07885 245374

Edited October 3, 2008 by David Schweizer

[Liam]

Hi David,

 

Many thanks for that, but I will find it difficult to get the engine to Braunston, from Manchester, especially with not being able to drive. I shall bear that in mind though as I will maybe be able to get a friend to help in that department...