Narrow boatmen or narrowboat men or what?

[Ian Hughes]

Is narrowboatman one non-hyphenated word or not? If not where would the hyphen go? By the way, I know 'narrow boatman' is more a description of the stature of the boatman. There are plenty of wide narrowboatmen around.

Edited September 2, 2008 by Ian Hughes

[Hairy-Neil]

Narrowboat is a new word coined by Waterways World mag in the 1970s. Historically it was always a narrow boat.

Edited September 2, 2008 by Hairy-Neil

[alan_fincher]

Personally I doubt if any of....

 

narrow boat man

narrowboat man

narrow boatman

or

narrowboatmen

 

can be found in a historical source much before the 1960s.

 

I don't know for certain, and am happy to be proved wrong.

 

What I can say, is having done extensive family history research, censuses between 1841 and 1901, if they actual manage to capture a boatman, always refer either to "boatman" or "canal boatman", unless they include some concept of "rank", such as "master of canal boat", "captain of canal boat", or "mate".

Although it is clearly narrow boats being enumerated, the word "narrow" is never used, nor is the term "barge".

 

This is mostly research done for bating families in the south - I suppose it may have been different elsewhere ?

 

Alan

[Jim]

Personally I doubt if any of....

 

narrow boat man

narrowboat man

narrow boatman

or

narrowboatmen

 

can be found in a historical source much before the 1960s.

 

I don't know for certain, and am happy to be proved wrong.

 

What I can say, is having done extensive family history research, censuses between 1841 and 1901, if they actual manage to capture a boatman, always refer either to "boatman" or "canal boatman", unless they include some concept of "rank", such as "master of canal boat", "captain of canal boat", or "mate".

Although it is clearly narrow boats being enumerated, the word "narrow" is never used, nor is the term "barge".

 

This is mostly research done for bating families in the south - I suppose it may have been different elsewhere ?

 

Alan

 

I agree. The term is "boatman". the size of the boat, if it mattered, would be obvious from the context.

Jim

[mayalld]

Personally I doubt if any of....

 

narrow boat man

narrowboat man

narrow boatman

or

narrowboatmen

 

can be found in a historical source much before the 1960s.

 

I don't know for certain, and am happy to be proved wrong.

 

What I can say, is having done extensive family history research, censuses between 1841 and 1901, if they actual manage to capture a boatman, always refer either to "boatman" or "canal boatman", unless they include some concept of "rank", such as "master of canal boat", "captain of canal boat", or "mate".

Although it is clearly narrow boats being enumerated, the word "narrow" is never used, nor is the term "barge".

 

This is mostly research done for bating families in the south - I suppose it may have been different elsewhere ?

 

Alan

 

OK, as I have such a person in my ancestry, I can offer;

 

1835 (married) - Waterman

1837 (Childs Birth) - Waterman

1841 Census - Beerseller

1848 (Childs Birth) - Boatman

1851 Census - Outdoor Labourer

1861 Census - Innkeeper

1864 death cert (Congested Apoplexy, found dead in street) - Innkeeper

1871 (Daughter's Marriage) - Gentleman (deceased)

 

His wife was the licencee of a pub that stood at the side of Lock 6W on the HNC from shortly after the marriage, until long after his death, so it is far from clear what his various jobs really were.

 

I get the impression that he was a ne-eer do well and boozer who got a bit of casual work on the canal or helped with the pub, whilst his wif ran the family.

 

Notice the last entry - families have a lovely way of glossing over things once time has passed!

[MartinClark]

I get the impression that he was a ne-eer do well and boozer who got a bit of casual work on the canal or helped with the pub, whilst his wif ran the family.

So it is traditional to have ne'er-do-wells and boozers hanging around canal wharfs?

[alan_fincher]

OK, as I have such a person in my ancestry, I can offer;

 

1835 (married) - Waterman

1837 (Childs Birth) - Waterman

1841 Census - Beerseller

1848 (Childs Birth) - Boatman

1851 Census - Outdoor Labourer

1861 Census - Innkeeper

1864 death cert (Congested Apoplexy, found dead in street) - Innkeeper

1871 (Daughter's Marriage) - Gentleman (deceased)

 

His wife was the licencee of a pub that stood at the side of Lock 6W on the HNC from shortly after the marriage, until long after his death, so it is far from clear what his various jobs really were.

 

I get the impression that he was a ne-eer do well and boozer who got a bit of casual work on the canal or helped with the pub, whilst his wif ran the family.

 

Notice the last entry - families have a lovely way of glossing over things once time has passed!

Well you could have the chap who gave his occupation thus in the 1881 census.....

 

M.A., L.L.B. (Cambs), F.R.S., J.P.

 

Showing off ? No, not really.....

 

His name - Charles Robert Darwin.

[mayalld]

So it is traditional to have ne'er-do-wells and boozers hanging around canal wharfs?

 

It is in our family!

[carlt]

I used to be a Narrow Boatman but, as middle age has crept up, I've become a wide boatman.

[alan_fincher]

In my direct ancestry, I can't beat

 

"Bricklayer & Publican".

 

I think being a publican was very different then - perhaps just a bit of brewing, and selling a few beers in your own house. (No concept of licencing, at that time).

 

I do wish I could claim this pretentious fella in my ancestry, (again, "occupation from 1881 census).

 

73 Great George Street, Liverpool St George Lancs

 

William C HUDSON, son, unm, 26, Student of science & theology, Bachelor of Arts, London University, Open exhibitioner of Christ Church, Oxford, C+C N.G.S. Gold Medalist (London), P.C. Prizeman Soc of Arts (London), born Liverpool Lancashire.

 

Sorry,

 

Apologies for drifting off topic.

 

I do agree "waterman" can occur, although I've not found one use of it in censuses for the canal families I've been interested in. "Waterman" is widely used in Norfolk, though, in lieu of wherryman, where I have some very remotely related people on my mother's side.

[magnetman]

I'd be pleased with the title 'Gentleman' its rather quaint.

[mayalld]

In my direct ancestry, I can't beat

 

"Bricklayer & Publican".

 

I think being a publican was very different then - perhaps just a bit of brewing, and selling a few beers in your own house. (No concept of licencing, at that time).

 

I do wish I could claim this pretentious fella in my ancestry, (again, "occupation from 1881 census).

 

73 Great George Street, Liverpool St George Lancs

 

William C HUDSON, son, unm, 26, Student of science & theology, Bachelor of Arts, London University, Open exhibitioner of Christ Church, Oxford, C+C N.G.S. Gold Medalist (London), P.C. Prizeman Soc of Arts (London), born Liverpool Lancashire.

 

Sorry,

 

Apologies for drifting off topic.

 

I do agree "waterman" can occur, although I've not found one use of it in censuses for the canal families I've been interested in. "Waterman" is widely used in Norfolk, though, in lieu of wherryman, where I have some very remotely related people on my mother's side.

 

I believe that Waterman usually implies somebody who worked on a wharf, rather than on a boat.

[tidal]

I believe that Waterman usually implies somebody who worked on a wharf, rather than on a boat.

 

Generally yes, but in the London docks area it can and was either according to my ancestry. I can lay claim to being descended from a waterman who rowed a pair oar ferry...... from my own research it may have designated someone who worked at a mulitude of water-based tasks without having a single occupation

 

Mind you another of my ancestors was executed for horse theft and others banished to Ireland for "rebellion against the crown and the estates" so it looks like I'm descended fom ne'er-do-wells

[mayalld]

Generally yes, but in the London docks area it can and was either according to my ancestry. I can lay claim to being descended from a waterman who rowed a pair oar ferry...... from my own research it may have designated someone who worked at a mulitude of water-based tasks without having a single occupation

 

Ah yes, I forgot that one.

 

Watermen are also those who operate small boats (cutters, lighters, etc etc.) that are employed in a local area to service the needs of the longer distance vessels.

[1066]

Is narrowboatman one non-hyphenated word or not? If not where would the hyphen go? By the way, I know 'narrow boatman' is more a description of the stature of the boatman. There are plenty of wide narrowboatmen around.

 

I have absolutely no idea what the answer is, Ian ........ but I do think you need to get out a bit more!!

[stewey]

Ah yes, I forgot that one.

 

Watermen are also those who operate small boats (cutters, lighters, etc etc.) that are employed in a local area to service the needs of the longer distance vessels.

Here in London we have the Company of Watermen and Lightermen. A brief note from their website:

 

The Company of Watermen was established by Act of Parliament in 1555 to regulate watermen and wherrymen carrying passengers by boat under oars on the River Thames.

 

http://www.watermenshall.org/about_us.htm

 

I have absolutely no idea what the answer is, Ian ........ but I do think you need to get out a bit more!!

OK, I'm grabbing my coat!

 

Stewey

[Hairy-Neil]

I believe that Waterman usually implies somebody who worked on a wharf, rather than on a boat.

 

I have Watermen amongst my ancesters. However, the family were known to have worked in the Cheshire salt industry. Other members of the direct family were Salt Boilers, Pansmiths, Foreman Saltworks, so it is likely that this Waterman was not a boatman.

[Machpoint005]

To answer original question, a boatman on a narrow boat.

 

Or we could run words together to make anothernewportmanteaunoun, then turn it into a verb for anothernewportmanteaunounising.

 

Yuk

[Jason Wilson and Family]

May be of interest but it would seem Dave has it right already (makes sense to me anyway). Where I live the English language went untainted for much longer than the rest of the US. The local fishermen who have been fishing and harvesting oysters here for years are collectively known as Watermen. It kind of goes along with them being jacks-of-all-trades around the water, they take care of their own nets and traps shoreside and build their nets, set crab pots and operate t heir boats on the water.

 

When you get into the big commercial operations is when they break it down more.

 

Now, to be completely unhelpful, the only waterperson I know of in my family was referred to as 'Lord High Admiral' ... think that meant he had something to do with management.

Edited September 2, 2008 by Jason Wilson and Family

[madrilin]

In my direct ancestry, I can't beat

 

"Bricklayer & Publican".

 

I think being a publican was very different then - perhaps just a bit of brewing, and selling a few beers in your own house. (No concept of licencing, at that time).

 

I do wish I could claim this pretentious fella in my ancestry, (again, "occupation from 1881 census).

 

73 Great George Street, Liverpool St George Lancs

 

William C HUDSON, son, unm, 26, Student of science & theology, Bachelor of Arts, London University, Open exhibitioner of Christ Church, Oxford, C+C N.G.S. Gold Medalist (London), P.C. Prizeman Soc of Arts (London), born Liverpool Lancashire.

 

Sorry,

 

Apologies for drifting off topic.

 

Off topic again. I've got a 'sagger makers bottom knocker' in my ancestry. I don't like to think about it.

 

I do agree "waterman" can occur, although I've not found one use of it in censuses for the canal families I've been interested in. "Waterman" is widely used in Norfolk, though, in lieu of wherryman, where I have some very remotely related people on my mother's side.

[Ian Hughes]

Thanks 1066! I do indeed need to get out a bit more but I would like to get this right for the website 'Songs of the Inland Waterways' where I have just added a song 'The Narrowboatman Blues' (or should that be 'The Narrowboat-man Blues'?) I prefer the former but, of course, the computer spell-checker (American!) doesn't like it and that is what raised the question in my mind in the first place.

[kiki]

It is in our family!

 

No its not....its on our Wharf - you can't blame your ancestors for what we all get up to on weekends