Roses and castles

[goldtone]

Why Roses and Castles, why did the old timers choose these motifs?

[carlt]

Why Roses and Castles, why did the old timers choose these motifs?

Depends on which expert you believe.

 

I'm afraid I'm on the fence but sway towards Tony Lewery's theories.

[goldtone]

Depends on which expert you believe.

 

I'm afraid I'm on the fence but sway towards Tony Lewery's theories.

 

Which is?

[bottle]

Which is?

 

Link

[carlt]

Which is?

A "folksy" imitation of the artwork on the ceramic goods they saw, and carried.

[goldtone]

Link

 

Thanks for that. And I'm glad to see that there is some synergy between canal art and another interest of mine: 1950's pinstriping

[John Orentas]

Many years ago I read a short article which compared our 'roses and castles' with the Chinese Willow Pattern tradition.. There are so many similarities regarding all the compulsory ingredients of both disciplines that it is impossible to imagine the two are not very closely related.

 

I suspect the early boat painters simply translated the willow patterns into a recognisable English landscape, albeit highly stylised.

[magnetman]

And there i was thinking it was a visual expression of the boatmen's ultimate dream of owning land and property (castles and bridges) and beautiful gardens with bright and perfumed roses, and all the honey and bees and tranquility and no fishermen. And a 70ft mooring with lectric and water.

[Phil Speight]

Many years ago I read a short article which compared our 'roses and castles' with the Chinese Willow Pattern tradition.. There are so many similarities regarding all the compulsory ingredients of both disciplines that it is impossible to imagine the two are not very closely related.

 

I suspect the early boat painters simply translated the willow patterns into a recognisable English landscape, albeit highly stylised.

Sorry John - I can`t agree at all. You can readily draw comparisons with all sorts of worldwide folk art traditions - Afghanistan, India , Norway among others and most particularly Russia ( the Zhostova work which I collect incidentally). I am entirely convinced that roses and castles are a necessarily stylised development of popular pre-industrial revolution art. My reasons are too long to write here ( specially with tooth-ache ) but you will find the theory I favour expounded in an academic paper "The Poor Man`s Claude Lorraines" some copies of which used to be in the archive at Ellesmere Port. The logical progression via the industrial revolution from art exclusively enjoyed by the aristocracy to art enjoyed by everyman and retained despite later changes of fashion by the boat people is also that put forward by Tony Lewery who has done more research into the subject than anyone else. Given the expansion of Britain`s worldwide influence through the years of Empire it always struck me that WE were much more likely to have influenced THEM than vice versa. Beyond that you will find examples of parallel but unconnected development in all manner of folk art from around the world. For instance , you may struggle to tell the difference between hand knotted rugs from "peasant" weavers in the Caucasus , South America and Eastern China ( and I don`t mean the inch thick Chinese carpets you see in Rackhams ).

You could also compare the entirely different decorative techniques to be found in a boat cabin and a gypsy caravan. They are demonstrably unconnected but the overall effect shows two cultures coming to very similar decorative and practical solutions.

I hope you don`t mind my contradicting you - specially since either or both of us may be wrong !

Cheers

Phil

 

Table FALL not FLAP please

 

 

Table FALL not FLAP please

Most of the old boat people I know refer to it as either the table cupboard DOOR or simply just the table cupboard- but what would I know , I`m from Yorkshire where we used to have hauling banks instead of towpaths. I`m sure that the item in question had many names . What , out of interest , is your take on calling the panel to the right of the step the "weather board "? It has been much discussed at our wharf recently - although boats are meant to be a banned subject after close of play.

Phil

[Max Sinclair]

Les Allen told me that in the winter the Gypsies used to come down from Cannock Chase to the Black Country boatyards and ask " Is the Brummer ( Boss) in". They were seeking boat painting work.

There was a lot of cheap tinware available decoratively painted with bunches of roses, always three to represent The Trinity, and this served as an easily held pattern.

Sister Mary the boatmans Nurse at Stoke Bruerne told me when the canals were being constructed a lot of unemployed Cornish miners worked as Navvies. Some became boat crews and the stylised bridge in the paintings was the old river bridge at Looe. I have been unable to find an early painting of the town to confirm this.

[Liam]

Phil,

 

If you would like to some help in getting some of the archives you have, online, for others to see then please let me know if I can be of assistance. I may be young but I can also be very patient!

[Phil Speight]

Les Allen told me that in the winter the Gypsies used to come down from Cannock Chase to the Black Country boatyards and ask " Is the Brummer ( Boss) in". They were seeking boat painting work.

There was a lot of cheap tinware available decoratively painted with bunches of roses, always three to represent The Trinity, and this served as an easily held pattern.

Sister Mary the boatmans Nurse at Stoke Bruerne told me when the canals were being constructed a lot of unemployed Cornish miners worked as Navvies. Some became boat crews and the stylised bridge in the paintings was the old river bridge at Looe. I have been unable to find an early painting of the town to confirm this.

Remember though that by the time Les Allen was building boats and earlier when Sister Mary was active the boat decorating tradition was already very well established. Earliest evidence for the work as we would recognize it dates back to the mid 19th century - and it was clearly a very well developed tradition by then. For every canal bridge that resembles one existing one are countless numbers that could be taken as pictures of other completely unrelated locations.

George Tooley for instance is known to have copied European postcards, Bushell Brothers landscapes featured very distinctive bridges , Braunston ones are different again , and on it goes!

Cheers

Phil

 

Phil,

 

If you would like to some help in getting some of the archives you have, online, for others to see then please let me know if I can be of assistance. I may be young but I can also be very patient!

Okay - thanks. Can we actually speak to each other - llike on a phone maybe !? 01384 485554 daytimes.

Cheers

Phil

[Liam]

Any form of modern communcation medium is accepted by myself!

 

I work during the day and am boating during the weekend, so evenings are better for me, really. What days/times are you available?

[Phil Speight]

Any form of modern communcation medium is accepted by myself!

 

I work during the day and am boating during the weekend, so evenings are better for me, really. What days/times are you available?

`owzabout e-mail - zita at craftmasterpaints dot co dot uk

 

All I would want to do at the moment is put a gallery of pictures with captions up . Others here are already wanting to create an online "archive" which I have said I will help with when they are ready. For now though I could photograph my collection of old painted stuff , add some good modern work and give the names of the paintrs and dates.

Get in touch and we`ll get on with it.

Cheers

Phil

Edited June 6, 2008 by Liam
Edited the email address to reduce spam

[nbtafelberg]

Phil you can use a package called Picassa free from google to make up your albums and publish them to the web - might be a good solution.

 

http://picassa.google.com

[Phil Speight]

Any form of modern communcation medium is accepted by myself!

 

I work during the day and am boating during the weekend, so evenings are better for me, really. What days/times are you available?

Hi

Any evening - 01384 485564 - when I`m not in the pub , out on my bike , hedge trimming in an old Alfa or whatevr . i`m always in around 8.00pm though.

Brigid ( I may have got that wrong ) is already workingg on something and will be consulting you at some popint.

Cheers

Phil

[Liam]

Hi Phil,

 

I have received a PM from Catrin, but have not yet replied. I tend to do this later on after work when I can give it my full attention.

 

Cheers matey.

[Max Sinclair]

Remember though that by the time Les Allen was building boats and earlier when Sister Mary was active the boat decorating tradition was already very well established. Earliest evidence for the work as we would recognize it dates back to the mid 19th century - and it was clearly a very well developed tradition by then. For every canal bridge that resembles one existing one are countless numbers that could be taken as pictures of other completely unrelated locations.

George Tooley for instance is known to have copied European postcards, Bushell Brothers landscapes featured very distinctive bridges , Braunston ones are different again , and on it goes!

Cheers

Phil

Les Allen was speaking from years of experience. He had to deal with the gypsies when they came in to Spencer Abbotts yard in the 1930's.

 

Okay - thanks. Can we actually speak to each other - llike on a phone maybe !? 01384 485554 daytimes.

Cheers

Phil

[Derek R.]

Tony Lewery's 'Flowers Afloat' is very informative. He mentions Victorian glass paintings being popular in the nineteenth century. We picked one up in Scotland a few years ago in a junk 'cave', so I thought it might be of some interest to post:

 

 

It measures approximately 24inches by 15. Crude, bold, with many of the features we see in canal decoration.

 

Derek

[Chertsey]

There are these also, actually on windows

here

and here

 

Not as strikingly similar as the tray, which is fantastic, but still a recognisable type. Built in the first half of the nineteenth century. I'm not suggesting any connection, only that these sorts of images were clearly fairly widespread.

[dave moore]

Hi all

This may well have been said before, but another possible source, again put forward by Tony, is the whie faced clock dials of long case clocks. The example in the Anchor at High Offley on the Shroppie, about 40 mins boating north of Norbury is a classic example...enjoy a pint while you peruse!

Cheers

Dave Moore

[Derek R.]

Not as strikingly similar as the tray, which is fantastic, but still a recognisable type. Built in the first half of the nineteenth century. I'm not suggesting any connection, only that these sorts of images were clearly fairly widespread.

 

Erm . . . not a tray, but a framed wall hanging picture. The glass is painted onto directly from behind, and so the foremost items need be painted on first, and the background last. Not easy.

 

Lovely paintings on the side glasses to the door - what Country?

 

Derek

[Derek R.]

Couple of teasers, and most probably by owner boater painters.

 

The roses are knobstick style, not sure about the castle - anyone know?

 

 

Different again (same boat), poor condition.

 

 

And a really poor pic. of a Fred Winnet castle by Chris Lloyd - 'Yarmouth' '86

 

[Chertsey]

Erm . . . not a tray, but a framed wall hanging picture. The glass is painted onto directly from behind, and so the foremost items need be painted on first, and the background last. Not easy.

 

Lovely paintings on the side glasses to the door - what Country?

 

Derek

 

Sorry, that was careless of me.

The windows are in London, 48 Gordon Square in Bloomsbury. The whole square was built between 1820 and 1850, and I'd guess these date from then. None of the other houses has them, but might have lost them over the years.

[Derek R.]

Sorry, that was careless of me.

The windows are in London, 48 Gordon Square in Bloomsbury. The whole square was built between 1820 and 1850, and I'd guess these date from then. None of the other houses has them, but might have lost them over the years.

 

Wow! Been there often enough - but not walking!! London's full of surprises.