Solid Fuel Fires

[Tonyl]

Hello again,

 

At the risk of being boring, as previously stated, we are having a 57' boat being built for June 2008,(still at the planning stage), and obvously are trying to get things as near to correct as possible, although I suppose that never happens. As a lot of you are existing and expeirienced boat owners etc, I am sure you can help with this question, or at least offer an opinion. So far you have been great in drawing attention to details of my previous questions. Hope you can help with these.

 

The boat we are having has the usual 5KW central heating with radiators etc, and a solid fuel fire in the front corner of the forward lounge/saloon. The builder tells me that the standard fire he fits is OK but if we are looking at keeping it on overnight, it may be worth looking at going for a slightly bigger fire .We dont intend to have a back boiler connected to it. Can anyone offer further information ? .Instinct tells me that these fires must be a source of some real mess, based on the solid fuel fire I inherited in my house, which was soon replaced by an equivalent coal effect thing burning LPG (no mains gas to house), which gives all the cosy looking appearance and the heat, but non of the debris which needs to carted through the lounge, kitchen, porch, only to blow over you when you open the back door. Maybe I exagerate, but I guess you know what I mean

 

Secondly, someone at a marina I visited recently, in my search for moorings, tried to explain to me of a device that sits on top of the solid fuel fire in the form of a Fan which sounded like it was driven by convection ,which in turn, pushes the hot air around the adjacent area. He spoke as though it was commonly used. Has anyone heard or used such a device and are they any good.

 

Regards

 

Tony

[Sir Nibble]

Secondly, someone at a marina I visited recently, in my search for moorings, tried to explain to me of a device that sits on top of the solid fuel fire in the form of a Fan which sounded like it was driven by convection ,which in turn, pushes the hot air around the adjacent area. He spoke as though it was commonly used. Has anyone heard or used such a device and are they any good.

 

Regards

 

Tony

"Ecofan". Do a search, some people swear by them, others think they are a toy.

[dor]

Morso squirrel, Becton Bunny & Stovax Brunel 1A are all similar solid fuel stoves that will stay in easily overnight on excel-type coal and will burn wood as well. Yes there is some dust etc but it is not a problem if you are careful with them.

 

If your CH is gas (Alde) it will be expensive, and diesel not much better. Most people find that the stove provides more than enough heat nmost of the time, with the CH just used to take the chill off or get a boost first thing in the morning. The stove running on coal or cheap wood (i.e. not bought in little sacks) is much cheaper.

[KenK]

I've never understood why boatbuilders always want to put the stove at the front of the boat. A friend of ours has her stove in the middle and both ends of the boat are always like toast. As your at the planning stage you might give this some thought.

 

Ken

[bottle]

Hi Tony

 

Our boat will be of similar layout.

 

This may help with the dust problem link

 

[Canal Shop Man]

Hi Tony

 

Our boat will be of similar layout.

 

This may help with the dust problem link

 

Tony

 

I don't know if you are near enough, but if you come in, we have a) a solid fuel stove heating the shop, b ) an Ecofan on top moving the warm air around, c) a range of solid fuel stoves on show, d) hire boats which use solid fuel stoves so we know what we are talking about (!) and e) probably everything else you might consider for your boat!

 

By the way, we also stock the 'Tippy' box above.

[stickleback]

I've got a morso squirrel stove at the front and an ecofan. I would have quite liked the stove in the middle, but it was at the front by default and I am now pleased as it keeps dust, coal, logs etc all at one end, just by the door - and with the ecofan, the whole boat is toasty warm anyway. The tippy box is a boon - hot ash can go in and can be disposed of later.

 

Stickleback

[onthecut]

Hi Tony.

 

Having had both, I'm a convert to a diesel fire. No mess, consistent heat output, quicker warm up and almost instant 'off' if required; coal effect available if required, vastly less flue cleaning, the easiest fuel storage and handling. I hopefully won't be a hypocrite though -- I have got an Epping at the other end !

 

Mike.

[Esme No 2]

Hi Tony,

 

We have a Bubble solid fuel stove, which is located towards the centre of the boat and are really pleased with it. The design is shaped to go in a corner area and it seems to have a slightly larger capacity for fuel because of this.

 

 

So far when out on the boat in winter, even on very cold days we have used the stove to heat up the whole boat.... only used the diesel heating sometimes in the mornings when we couldn't be bothered to get up and put more coal on the fire.

 

Also recently added an Ecofan and I think this does make a difference. Without it a lot of energy seems to go into heating the ceiling area immediately above the stove. With the fan the ceiling is still warm...but nowhere near the temperature it used to be. The heat is distributed about the boat more evenly and by pointing the fan in different directions it at least gives you the sense of control over where the heat goes.

 

Having mastered the art of keeping the fire in all night long I discovered that even moderately warm ashes have hot spots that melt refuse bags .... a Tippy Can thingy is useful addition if you need to get rid of hot ashes in the morning!!

 

As for the mess when cleaning out the fire....well that's all part of the fun of being on the boat in winter.....nothing that a dustpan and brush and few sheets of newspaper can't cope with!

 

Good luck with the build

 

Kathy

[Tonyl]

Hi Tony.

 

Having had both, I'm a convert to a diesel fire. No mess, consistent heat output, quicker warm up and almost instant 'off' if required; coal effect available if required, vastly less flue cleaning, the easiest fuel storage and handling. I hopefully won't be a hypocrite though -- I have got an Epping at the other end !

 

Mike.

 

Thanks Mike,

 

I am intrigued by the diesel fire. As much as I like tradition, I am all for rapid on/off technology. As we wont be living on board, I really do not want to spend time cleaning fires out. What make did you have fitted ? I guess the Ecofan would work the same with the diesel option ?

 

Regards Tony

[Chris J W]

Thanks Mike,

 

I am intrigued by the diesel fire. As much as I like tradition, I am all for rapid on/off technology. As we wont be living on board, I really do not want to spend time cleaning fires out. What make did you have fitted ? I guess the Ecofan would work the same with the diesel option ?

 

Regards Tony

 

Should do if you've sufficient room on top to place it.

[Tonyl]

Hi Tony,

 

We have a Bubble solid fuel stove, which is located towards the centre of the boat and are really pleased with it. The design is shaped to go in a corner area and it seems to have a slightly larger capacity for fuel because of this.

 

 

So far when out on the boat in winter, even on very cold days we have used the stove to heat up the whole boat.... only used the diesel heating sometimes in the mornings when we couldn't be bothered to get up and put more coal on the fire.

 

Also recently added an Ecofan and I think this does make a difference. Without it a lot of energy seems to go into heating the ceiling area immediately above the stove. With the fan the ceiling is still warm...but nowhere near the temperature it used to be. The heat is distributed about the boat more evenly and by pointing the fan in different directions it at least gives you the sense of control over where the heat goes.

 

Having mastered the art of keeping the fire in all night long I discovered that even moderately warm ashes have hot spots that melt refuse bags .... a Tippy Can thingy is useful addition if you need to get rid of hot ashes in the morning!!

 

As for the mess when cleaning out the fire....well that's all part of the fun of being on the boat in winter.....nothing that a dustpan and brush and few sheets of newspaper can't cope with!

 

Good luck with the build

 

Kathy

 

Hi Kathy,

 

The fire and surround looks wonderful. I think I can see what you mean about the corner shape/design. I does sit well. You are obviously a convert to the Ecofan by the sounds of it.

 

Take care, catch you later.

 

Tony

[onthecut]

Thanks Mike,

 

I am intrigued by the diesel fire. As much as I like tradition, I am all for rapid on/off technology. As we wont be living on board, I really do not want to spend time cleaning fires out. What make did you have fitted ? I guess the Ecofan would work the same with the diesel option ?

 

Regards Tony

 

 

Hi Tony.

 

Mine is a Bubble Stove. One of the things that has impressed me about it is that once it's up to speed, it burns blue -- which I figure is about as efficient as it gets. If you're around the Midlands, you're welcome to come and view and play. I'm on the Shroppie at the moment.

 

Mike.

[Big John]

This may help with the dust problem link

 

Since we changed from large anthracite knobs to small, I don't find the carrying of the ash pan a problem. There is still dust when we tip it into our galvanised bucket though. Any ideas how to stop that? I suppose damping it down a bit (literally) might help but then maybe it wouldn't flow out smoothly.

 

On a related matter, does anyone know anywhere to buy a replacement clip for the coal tongs?

[bottle]

Hi John

 

I do not think that dust will ever stop being a problem when tipping ash into a bucket, as you say damping it may help.

 

The 'tippy' in the photo is allegedly supposed to eliminate it according to their 'blurb', the ash pan is placed in, lid closed and then tipped, it will hold more than one ashpan load.

 

There will be a problem, I expect, if you try to get to many 'loads' into it.

 

Not used one myself but on my wish list for new boat.

[Ernie]

Since we changed from large anthracite knobs to small, I don't find the carrying of the ash pan a problem. There is still dust when we tip it into our galvanised bucket though. Any ideas how to stop that? I suppose damping it down a bit (literally) might help but then maybe it wouldn't flow out smoothly.

 

On a related matter, does anyone know anywhere to buy a replacement clip for the coal tongs?

We have a tippy but we only tend to use it when it is too windy (or wet) to carry the ash pan straight from the fire to the dumping point. It’s very handy and we wouldn’t be without it.

[boater75]

We have a Bubble at the front of the boat 57ft and ch as well but the ehat we get out of the Bubble is fantastic it stays in all night and the dogs love it, its a talking point with visitors and it smells nice outside when we burn a bit of Cherry wood, one tip tho have a good fire proof mat in front of it as you sometimes get a spark or hot cinders spilling out and they will mark your floor.

[Keeping Up]

The 'tippy' in the photo is allegedly supposed to eliminate it according to their 'blurb', the ash pan is placed in, lid closed and then tipped, it will hold more than one ashpan load.

 

There will be a problem, I expect, if you try to get to many 'loads' into it.

We find it will take 3 pan loads, from our Little Wenlock stove, without any problem. Any more than that and you disturb the existing contents trying to get the pan fully inside before shutting the lid.

 

I wouldn't be without it!

[debbifiggy]

Hi Tony.

 

Having had both, I'm a convert to a diesel fire. No mess, consistent heat output, quicker warm up and almost instant 'off' if required; coal effect available if required, vastly less flue cleaning, the easiest fuel storage and handling. I hopefully won't be a hypocrite though -- I have got an Epping at the other end !

 

Mike.

But what about the whole price of diesel issue? It's much more expensive than coal for a start ... separate tanks for red and white and then a whole heap of other stuff like a lot of diesel stoves apparently are not too great on bio diesel. Hopefully some more clued up people on this forum will chip in here.

 

Sod the dust and the sheer effort sometimes but there's nothing to beat a Morso Squirrel burning Taybright. That's my opinion anyhow. D

[onthecut]

But what about the whole price of diesel issue? It's much more expensive than coal for a start ... separate tanks for red and white and then a whole heap of other stuff like a lot of diesel stoves apparently are not too great on bio diesel. Hopefully some more clued up people on this forum will chip in here.

 

Sod the dust and the sheer effort sometimes but there's nothing to beat a Morso Squirrel burning Taybright. That's my opinion anyhow. D

 

Are we sure that diesel is dearer than coal ? I reckon (roughly) the Bubble gets through about a litre every three hours, so that's around 55p per three hours. Processed solid fuels seem to be £7.50 a bag upwards for 20kg. Those figures give around 40 hours running with the diesel -- absolutely consistent output --- I'm not sure the solid fuel would be much ahead of that. Aside from the obvious issues of ash, dust and soot there isn't the issue of humping and storing coal bags. There is no comparison in the controllability of the heat output, the speed of firing up or turning off. If you plan from the start for diesel, you'll probably have a separate tank, as we have -- so no issue there if there is one set of fuel for propulsion and one for heat. I can't comment on running a diesel stove on bio -- there is no economic point in doing so at present as commercial bio is dearer than gas oil. Bit of a sidetrack, but I also suspect the oil stove is lasting a lot better than the Squirrels do. Our present one has now done three and a bit years and is still like new. Zero corrosion or any other nasties. By contrast, our last Squirrel and those of a few friends have all started to give out one way or the other. I don't think the moisture helps if you burn wood and the big heat variations with coal can lead to cracks.

As I've said -- I mustn't be hypocritical -- we have an Epping at the other end which is a great bit of kit, so I'm kind of foot in both camps, but I don't regret going diesel in place of a Squirrel.

 

Mike.

[blackrose]

Are we sure that diesel is dearer than coal ? I reckon (roughly) the Bubble gets through about a litre every three hours, so that's around 55p per three hours. Processed solid fuels seem to be £7.50 a bag upwards for 20kg. Those figures give around 40 hours running with the diesel -- absolutely consistent output --- I'm not sure the solid fuel would be much ahead of that. Aside from the obvious issues of ash, dust and soot there isn't the issue of humping and storing coal bags. There is no comparison in the controllability of the heat output, the speed of firing up or turning off. If you plan from the start for diesel, you'll probably have a separate tank, as we have -- so no issue there if there is one set of fuel for propulsion and one for heat. I can't comment on running a diesel stove on bio -- there is no economic point in doing so at present as commercial bio is dearer than gas oil. Bit of a sidetrack, but I also suspect the oil stove is lasting a lot better than the Squirrels do. Our present one has now done three and a bit years and is still like new. Zero corrosion or any other nasties. By contrast, our last Squirrel and those of a few friends have all started to give out one way or the other. I don't think the moisture helps if you burn wood and the big heat variations with coal can lead to cracks.

As I've said -- I mustn't be hypocritical -- we have an Epping at the other end which is a great bit of kit, so I'm kind of foot in both camps, but I don't regret going diesel in place of a Squirrel.

 

Mike.

 

I go through quite a lot of coal because mine is a big 8-10 kw output stove on a big boat, but most of my my neighbours seem to get by on 1 and a half bags/week in the depths of winter. The Bubble sounds very economical because I know people with diesel stoves who go through 8 litres/day even though they're out at work most of the time and the stove is off - that's £4.40/day or £30/week! Although I'm not up on the latest news that cost could double fairly soon.

 

Humping and storing coal or humping and storing diesel... I can't see much difference. I often see my neigbours syphoning and humping large containers of diesel, so black hands or smelly diesel hands = dirty hands.

 

I also disagree with you about controllability - I can turn my stove up and down like a gas fire and make the flames hang in the air if I want. I don't know what your friends were doing with their stoves but a good quality stove should last at least 10 years - mine has also done nearly three years and is in the same condition as when it was new.

 

On the issue of dust I will have to agree - but everything has its drawbacks. Those with diesel stoves are totally reliant on diesel deliveries in winter, while if the coal boat got stuck by lock stoppages or ice I could always find some logs.

Edited January 14, 2008 by blackrose

[Sylver Lining]

I've never understood why boatbuilders always want to put the stove at the front of the boat. A friend of ours has her stove in the middle and both ends of the boat are always like toast. As your at the planning stage you might give this some thought.

 

Ken

I hav always been puzzled at this too. it dosn't make sence.

my burner has gone almost in the middle. It does make a difference. and ive done away with narrow corridors, another common feature that puzzles me.

[onthecut]

I go through quite a lot of coal because mine is a big 8-10 kw output stove on a big boat, but most of my my neighbours seem to get by on 1 and a half bags/week in the depths of winter. The Bubble sounds very economical because I know people with diesel stoves who go through 8 litres/day even though they're out at work most of the time and the stove is off - that's £4.40/day or £30/week! Although I'm not up on the latest news that cost could double fairly soon.

 

Humping and storing coal or humping and storing diesel... I can't see much difference. I often see my neigbours syphoning and humping large containers of diesel, so black hands or smelly diesel hands = dirty hands.

 

I also disagree with you about controllability - I can turn my stove up and down like a gas fire and make the flames hang in the air if I want. I don't know what your friends were doing with their stoves but a good quality stove should last at least 10 years - mine has also done nearly three years and is in the same condition as when it was new.

 

On the issue of dust I will have to agree - but everything has its drawbacks. Those with diesel stoves are totally reliant on diesel deliveries in winter, while if the coal boat got stuck by lock stoppages or ice I could always find some logs.

 

Eight litres a day would about tie in with my figures, running 24 hrs. Sounds excessive if the stoves are off for long periods. Even so. I reckon you wouldn't be far off using 10 or 12 kg of fuel over 24 hrs, so the costs really aren't that far apart. I don't think there is a proposal to ban the use of red at rebated rate for heating; if they do, then it's a very simple jet change to run on rebated heating oil, instead. Having stood up for the diesel corner, I supposed it might be sensible to find some facts -- so I've just had a gander at the Bubble website and they list a flow rate of 4cc (min. setting) - 12cc (max) per minute (on my stove), with a heat output of 1.8 - 5kw. Reality is we rarely have it on anything much beyond the minimum unless we want to sweat. Sorry (well, not really !), got to disagree on the handling issue -- we have a separate reasonable size tank which we simply fill when we top up the main tank. Pump nozzle in, squeeze, job done. No contest.

Having become embroiled in a diesel v solid fuel debate, I should just mention the prime reason we have the separate diesel tank is that from the outset we decided to be gas free, so --- just to really get the argument going -- we have a diesel cooker as well !!!! That, I have to say, can be a tad overwhelming in the summer, so it's an electric hob mostly, then.

Standing by with my tin hat on !!!!!

 

Mike.

[Tonyl]

Eight litres a day would about tie in with my figures, running 24 hrs. Sounds excessive if the stoves are off for long periods. Even so. I reckon you wouldn't be far off using 10 or 12 kg of fuel over 24 hrs, so the costs really aren't that far apart. I don't think there is a proposal to ban the use of red at rebated rate for heating; if they do, then it's a very simple jet change to run on rebated heating oil, instead. Having stood up for the diesel corner, I supposed it might be sensible to find some facts -- so I've just had a gander at the Bubble website and they list a flow rate of 4cc (min. setting) - 12cc (max) per minute (on my stove), with a heat output of 1.8 - 5kw. Reality is we rarely have it on anything much beyond the minimum unless we want to sweat. Sorry (well, not really !), got to disagree on the handling issue -- we have a separate reasonable size tank which we simply fill when we top up the main tank. Pump nozzle in, squeeze, job done. No contest.

Having become embroiled in a diesel v solid fuel debate, I should just mention the prime reason we have the separate diesel tank is that from the outset we decided to be gas free, so --- just to really get the argument going -- we have a diesel cooker as well !!!! That, I have to say, can be a tad overwhelming in the summer, so it's an electric hob mostly, then.

Standing by with my tin hat on !!!!!

 

Mike.

 

Mike,

You certainly seem to know your fires. Couple of questions for you (if you do not mind)

 

1) Could you forward me the Bubble web address ?

 

2) If I were to choose such a fire, where is the most sensible place to locate a diesel fuel tank, assuming a forwardly positioned fire (corner). If I suggest this fit to my builder, I want to be prepared with the fact (if possible)

 

Regards

 

Tony

[blackrose]

Eight litres a day would about tie in with my figures, running 24 hrs. Sounds excessive if the stoves are off for long periods. Even so. I reckon you wouldn't be far off using 10 or 12 kg of fuel over 24 hrs, so the costs really aren't that far apart. I don't think there is a proposal to ban the use of red at rebated rate for heating; if they do, then it's a very simple jet change to run on rebated heating oil, instead. Having stood up for the diesel corner, I supposed it might be sensible to find some facts -- so I've just had a gander at the Bubble website and they list a flow rate of 4cc (min. setting) - 12cc (max) per minute (on my stove), with a heat output of 1.8 - 5kw. Reality is we rarely have it on anything much beyond the minimum unless we want to sweat. Sorry (well, not really !), got to disagree on the handling issue -- we have a separate reasonable size tank which we simply fill when we top up the main tank. Pump nozzle in, squeeze, job done. No contest.

Having become embroiled in a diesel v solid fuel debate, I should just mention the prime reason we have the separate diesel tank is that from the outset we decided to be gas free, so --- just to really get the argument going -- we have a diesel cooker as well !!!! That, I have to say, can be a tad overwhelming in the summer, so it's an electric hob mostly, then.

Standing by with my tin hat on !!!!!

 

Mike.

 

The Bubble is a gravity fed, right? They're the only ones to go for in my opinion.

 

I can certainly use 10 or 12kg of coal over 24hrs (it would have to be very cold out), but that's because my stove is a biggun - Morso Panther double door job. Small stoves like Squirrels or the Becton Bunny Boiler use far less - perhaps 5 or 6kg but that depends on a lot of other factors such as the type of coal, how well th boat is insulated, how hot the people inside like to be and whether they want to wear a T shirt or a jumper inside, how often they're in, etc. Personally I like to keep warm.

 

On the handling issue I'm only going on what I see. I never stop to question them about it but it looks just as much hassle to me - they've all got siphoning equipment and there are always big plastic and steel gerry cans lying around and people trolleying them up and down the pontoons. I'd rather empty a bag of coal into some scuttles than start syphoning diesl. Perhaps your tanks are a more sensible size than theirs, but I suspect more likely it's your low consumption that saving you the bother. I don't think anyone has a Bubble. One has a diesel fed Aga (or something that looks like one), one has a converted Squirrel (that uses as much as a litre/hour), and another has a Canadian gravity fed stove - i don't know the name.

Edited January 14, 2008 by blackrose