Lithium batteries

[Porcupine]

Hi everyone,

 

I am looking to get lithium batteries to replace my tired old car batteries. 
 

But I need someone who knows exactly what power battery I need and how to install them? 
 

Does anyone have a good recommendation for a lithium battery expert in the Teddington region?

 

Thanks very much, 

Matt

[Alan de Enfield]

Just before you go too far down the road - you do realise that Lithium batteries are not simply drop in replacements for  your 'old car batteries'.

eg: you will need to make modifications to your charging systems to avoid burning out your alternators.

[dmr]

Four counties marine is looking like a very expert lithium man but he is midlands based, I don't know if he travels far. He also does a top job so won't be cheap. Fogstar are now probably the biggest supplier of lithiums in the uk and they have a network of agents, these are listed on their website if you look hard.

[magnetman]

Yes it is essential to know that the marketing term 'drop-in replacement' only refers to the form factor ie the casing size. 

 

This could catch people out quite easily and I personally think it is rather disingenuous terminology. 

 

But thats what we have. Drop in replacements. Same size and generally lighter. Drop it in (well maybe don't drop it) and thats job done. 

 

except that it is much more complicated than that. 

 

 

[Porcupine]

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Just before you go too far down the road - you do realise that Lithium batteries are not simply drop in replacements for  your 'old car batteries'.

eg: you will need to make modifications to your charging systems to avoid burning out your alternators.

I know it involves more than just a straight swap. That’s really why I’d like an expert to help. 

6 minutes ago, dmr said:

Four counties marine is looking like a very expert lithium man but he is midlands based, I don't know if he travels far. He also does a top job so won't be cheap. Fogstar are now probably the biggest supplier of lithiums in the uk and they have a network of agents, these are listed on their website if you look hard.

Thanks, I’ve seen them. Look good but like you said, look expensive too. But definitely worth a shout, 

[IanD]

28 minutes ago, Porcupine said:

I know it involves more than just a straight swap. That’s really why I’d like an expert to help. 

Thanks, I’ve seen them. Look good but like you said, look expensive too. But definitely worth a shout, 

You need to either do a lot of reading up on lithium batteries -- lots of threads and knowledgeable people on CWDF! -- or consult an expert like Ed at Four Counties. Just "dropping-in" lithium batteries in place of lead-acid without knowing what you're doing it likely to lead to various problems including alternator damage/destruction or reduced battery lifetime, especially if you just connect them in parallel with lead-acid or replace the lead-acid with them and take no other precautions. Paying someone like Ed to sort all this out for you is likely to be cheaper than uninformed DIY.

 

If you want experts on CWDF to help I suggest you start by searching the archives and reading the many *many* threads where they have already given advice to people asking the same question.

Edited November 7 by IanD

[Gybe Ho]

44 minutes ago, Porcupine said:

 

I am looking to get lithium batteries to replace my tired old car batteries. 

 

 

How tired are these batteries? Are you a live-aboard experiencing a power crisis today?

[magnetman]

7 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

...experiencing a power crisis today?

A bit the Americans?

[Porcupine]

18 minutes ago, IanD said:

You need to either do a lot of reading up on lithium batteries -- lots of threads and knowledgeable people on CWDF! -- or consult an expert like Ed at Four Counties. Just "dropping-in" lithium batteries in place of lead-acid without knowing what you're doing it likely to lead to various problems including alternator damage/destruction or reduced battery lifetime, especially if you just connect them in parallel with lead-acid or replace the lead-acid with them and take no other precautions. Paying someone like Ed to sort all this out for you is likely to be cheaper than uninformed DIY.

 

If you want experts on CWDF to help I suggest you start by searching the archives and reading the many many* threads where they have already given advice to people asking the same question.

Great, thanks I’ll look into this. 

9 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

How tired are these batteries? Are you a live-aboard experiencing a power crisis today?

I am a liveaboard. Not a power crisis. But one of my batteries has lost power. 

[nicknorman]

It would help to know how you normally and mostly charge your batteries. If from a generator and battery charger, and/or solar, it is relatively easy since (the right) battery chargers and solar can be set for lithium charging. Charging from an alternator is much harder as the alternator is designed for charging lead acid, and it is not easy or cheap to alter its behaviour to suit lithium.

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, Porcupine said:

Great, thanks I’ll look into this. 

I am a liveaboard. Not a power crisis. But one of my batteries has lost power. 

 

In which case I'd suggest replacing it (or the whole bank) with lead acids to get the power back on promptly.*

 

Trying to learn from a standing start and under time pressure enough about LFP batteries to carry out a successful DIY installation, strikes me as a recipe for getting it wrong.

 

 

* Or just remove the dead battery form the bank and carry on with those left while you do the research.

 

 

[Gybe Ho]

17 minutes ago, Porcupine said:

 

I am a liveaboard. Not a power crisis. But one of my batteries has lost power. 

 

 

A few more questions:

1. How many batteries do you have?
2. How do you know which battery has lost power, is it after changing a switch labelled 1, 2 or 1+2
3. Do you know how big your batteries were when new? Batteries are usually sized in Amp Hours or Ah.

[Porcupine]

I have three batteries in a bank. They are 120 Ah. Not sure one has gone down, 

 

my MPPT  charger is just shows no equalising charging and when the fridge compressor comes on, it really knocks the battery to 10 volts. Strange? Any ideas? 
 

[Tony Brooks]

So, how well charged are they?

 

MPPT charger suggests solar charging, London suggests a good chance a live-aboard away from shore power and early November suggests a lack of solar charging, so the batteries might just be well discharged, unless you are engine/generator charging for 4 hours and day and 8 hours PLUS at weekends.

 

What voltage does the MPPT show soon after dark with noting turned on and then again before it gets light in the morning, again with nothing turned on?

 

Do not confuse solar (or any other) charging voltage with the true battery voltage.

 

[Gybe Ho]

15 minutes ago, Porcupine said:

I have three batteries in a bank. They are 120 Ah. Not sure one has gone down, 

 

my MPPT  charger is just shows no equalising charging and when the fridge compressor comes on, it really knocks the battery to 10 volts. Strange? Any ideas? 
 

 

When did you last run your main boat engine (or portable generator) to put a large amount of electricity back into the batteries?

 

Is this your first winter onboard?

[Tony1]

 

I would suggest that once you have a few potential names in mind, ask here and maybe on facebook, to see if anyone has experience of dealing with them.

You can ask people to PM you with replies, so that you dont get into the business of publicly naming and shaming a company or tradesperson.

 

You'll already know that there are many canal 'professionals' who are little more than inept cowboys, and the world of electrics is certainly no exception.

MtB's suggestion seems sensible to me too - obviously you can ask the potential installers, and see how soon they could attend to do the install if the job is agreed- but the odds are that it will be at least a week or two before they can attend, and if they have to wait for batteries from overseas suppliers, it could be even longer.

 

In case there are new BSS rules coming in the next few years about lithiums, I would ask for a clear invoice/documentation of the install. It seems that one of the potential new requirements might be that lithiums should be installed by a qualified professional (and we have discussed what that really means, and what limited value it has) - some evidence of the install might come in handy. 

 

What this forum can certainly do is advise you on what size battery you might need, if you can detail your cruising/mooring patterns (how many hours cruising per week etc), whether you have hookup, what your engine is, how big the alternator(s) are, whether they have poly V belts, whether you have solar,  how much power you use each day, what your budget is for the whole thing, etc etc.

 

With the information we can give you, you can at least discuss it with a professional knowing a bit about what you really need, and what your options are.  

 

If you have some basic electrical knowledge, I would suggest that there might be a fairly simple and quick 'bargain basement' option, which is

 

1.  A Fogstar battery of say 400-600Ah at maybe £800-1000 (delivery time on my friend's was 6 weeks, another last year was 3 months, but they might well have what you need on the shelf)

 

2.  A 50 amp Victron DC to DC charger at £250-300,

 

3.  All the required battery cable, lugs, fuses, etc. 

. 

Lithiums are becoming more popular, and there may be a local boater who has a B2B lithium setup already and has some understanding of these installs, who might be willing to advise you, or least supervise you doing the job. That would be a bit more risky, with no documentation or invoice, but it would be very cheap and get the job done fast. 

 

But if you are having serious and urgent power issues now, my personal choice would be Mike's suggestion, to get a few cheap lead acids as an interim, and plan the lithium install properly, rather than rush it.

 

ETA - obviously dont just just install new lead acids without first checking that the charging system works properly and its the batteries that are the problem, or the new ones will be damaged in turn.

Edited November 7 by Tony1

[Porcupine]

4 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

So, how well charged are they?

 

MPPT charger suggests solar charging, London suggests a good chance a live-aboard away from shore power and early November suggests a lack of solar charging, so the batteries might just be well discharged, unless you are engine/generator charging for 4 hours and day and 8 hours PLUS at weekends.

 

What voltage does the MPPT show soon after dark with noting turned on and then again before it gets light in the morning, again with nothing turned on?

 

Do not confuse solar (or any other) charging voltage with the true battery voltage.

 

You’re right. Liveaboard in London. I have spent 5 years living aboard with no problems. It’s 12.6 ish when I go to bed and similar when I wake up. 

6 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

When did you last run your main boat engine (or portable generator) to put a large amount of electricity back into the batteries?

 

Is this your first winter onboard?

Hi - no, I’ve had 5 wi yers aboard. This is the first time this has happened  I ran my engine an 1 hour yesterday. 

3 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

I would suggest that once you have a few potential names in mind, ask here and maybe on facebook, to see if anyone has experience of dealing with them.

You can ask people to PM you with replies, so that you dont get into the business of publicly naming and shaming a company or tradesperson.

 

You'll already know that there are many canal 'professionals' who are little more than inept cowboys, and the world of electrics is certainly no exception.

MtB's suggestion seems sensible to me too - obviously you can ask the potential installers, and see how soon they could attend to do the install if the job is agreed- but the odds are that it will be at least a week or two before they can attend, and if they have to wait for batteries from overseas suppliers, it could be even longer.

 

In case there are new BSS rules coming in the next few years about lithiums, I would ask for a clear invoice/documentation of the install. It seems that one of the potential new requirements might be that lithiums should be installed by a qualified professional (and we have discussed what that really means, and what limited value it has) - some evidence of the install might come in handy. 

 

What this forum can certainly do is advise you on what size battery you might need, if you can detail your cruising/mooring patterns (how many hours cruising per week etc), whether you have hookup, what your engine is, how big the alternator(s) are, whether they have poly V belts, whether you have solar,  how much power you use each day, what your budget is for the whole thing, etc etc.

 

With the information we can give you, you can at least discuss it with a professional knowing a bit about what you really need, and what your options are.  

 

If you have some basic electrical knowledge, I would suggest that there might be a fairly simple and quick 'bargain basement' option, which is

 

1.  A Fogstar battery of say 400-600Ah at maybe £800-1000 (delivery time on my friend's was 6 weeks, another last year was 3 months, but they might well have what you need on the shelf)

 

2.  A 50 amp Victron DC to DC charger at £250-300,

 

3.  All the required battery cable, lugs, fuses, etc. 

. 

Lithiums are becoming more popular, and there may be a local boater who has a B2B lithium setup already and has some understanding of these installs, who might be willing to advise you, or least supervise you doing the job. That would be a bit more risky, with no documentation or invoice, but it would be very cheap and get the job done fast. 

 

But if you are having serious and urgent power issues now, my personal choice would be Mike's suggestion, to get a few cheap lead acids as an interim, and plan the lithium install properly, rather than rush it.

 

ETA - obviously dont just just install new lead acids without first checking that the charging system works properly and its the batteries that are the problem, or the new ones will be damaged in turn.

Thanks Tony, wise words I think. 

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, Porcupine said:

You’re right. Liveaboard in London. I have spent 5 years living aboard with no problems. It’s 12.6 ish when I go to bed and similar when I wake up. 

 

OK, while 12.6 is not fully charged, they are well over half charged, and it seems that your overnight consumption is very low. Therefore, I would be looking for loose/dirty connections, fuses etc, particularly the battery post to battery clamp mating surfaces.  However, if that 10V is the instant the fridge kicks in ant it recovers somewhat while the fringe is till running, I would not worry too much about it for now, but start saving pennies for the new batteries. That would just be the fridges high starting surge, but the voltage should recover very quickly.

[Gybe Ho]

5 minutes ago, Porcupine said:

You’re right. Liveaboard in London. I have spent 5 years living aboard with no problems. It’s 12.6 ish when I go to bed and similar when I wake up. 

Hi - no, I’ve had 5 wi yers aboard. This is the first time this has happened  I ran my engine an 1 hour yesterday. 

Thanks Tony, wise words I think. 

 

If the batteries are a few years old and you have an established winter charging regime from previous winters then I suspect the batteries are starting to wear out. The battery voltage 1 hour after an engine charge would be useful info but solar could confuse the voltage numbers.

 

Do this test today if you can:

 

4pm Run the engine for 90 minutes for a good charge.

5:15 Turn off the fridge

5:30 Turn off the engine

5:40 Write down the battery voltage

5:45 Turn on the fridge and write down the battery voltage a few times when the fridge compressor is running

7:00pm Write down the battery voltage again while noting if the compressor is running

 

[Porcupine]

7 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

If the batteries are a few years old and you have an established winter charging regime from previous winters then I suspect the batteries are starting to wear out. The battery voltage 1 hour after an engine charge would be useful info but solar could confuse the voltage numbers.

 

Do this test today if you can:

 

4pm Run the engine for 90 minutes for a good charge.

5:15 Turn off the fridge

5:30 Turn off the engine

5:40 Write down the battery voltage

5:45 Turn on the fridge and write down the battery voltage a few times when the fridge compressor is running

7:00pm Write down the battery voltage again while noting if the compressor is running

 

I think it’s the batteries too. I’ll try the battery check - what will it tell me? 

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Porcupine said:

I have three batteries in a bank. They are 120 Ah. Not sure one has gone down, 

 

 

We should have picked up on this before. When there is a bank of batteries in parallel, one going down drags all the others down too so your comment that one battery had failed should have been asked about and unpacked earlier. It is much more likely that all three batteries are failing together, quite possibly from undercharging.

 

 

[Porcupine]

33 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

OK, while 12.6 is not fully charged, they are well over half charged, and it seems that your overnight consumption is very low. Therefore, I would be looking for loose/dirty connections, fuses etc, particularly the battery post to battery clamp mating surfaces.  However, if that 10V is the instant the fridge kicks in ant it recovers somewhat while the fringe is till running, I would not worry too much about it for now, but start saving pennies for the new batteries. That would just be the fridges high starting surge, but the voltage should recover very quickly.

Thanks Tony. 

[MtB]

Have a long and careful read of the battery primer, here:

 

 

 

 

[Porcupine]

Just now, MtB said:

 

We should have picked up on this before. When there is a bank of batteries in parallel, one going down drags all the others down too so your comment that one battery had failed should have been asked about and unpacked earlier. It is much more likely that all three batteries are failing together, quite possibly from undercharging.

 

 

I agree. I think the batteries are failing. I’m getting a volt meter to check. 

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Porcupine said:

I agree. I think the batteries are failing. I’m getting a volt meter to check. 

 

Excellent. Also read the battery primer I just linked to, it is full of solid gold advice. Go through it a small step at a time and post questions about anything you can't or don't understand.