5G Router external antenna

[junior]

Sorry for the WiFi and TV spam recently, but I'm starting a new thread specifically related to the antenna, as I have all the other hardware I need purchased I think, and although a few people have given me advice on the antenna in other threads, it's got a bit lost and I've got a bit confused.

 

I've purchased a ZYXEL NR5103 EV2, for £150 off eBay. I now need to get an external antenna to plug into it.

 

I've been reading as meany threads as I can regardling getting 5G on the boat, and have seen a few posts which I took to understand that the EV2 is not as good as the EV1 due to is antenna sockets. I do don't know if that's correct, or if I have misunderstood the posts. 

 

I've gone for a 5G router as my partner has to take part in video calls for work via 'Teams', and it will be important for us when we go out on the boat that she can still do this.

 

To give me the best possible chance of getting the best possible WiFi signal, I will be purchasing an external antenna. As I understand it, the NR5103 can pick up a 4G signal when 5G is not available, so need an antenna that will also do this. I presume all 5G antennas will pick up 4G instead when it can't detect a 5G signal?

 

I had read somewhere that the router I have bought only has sockets for a 5G antenna. If correct, does that mean that if there's no 5G signal available, the device won't be able to run on 4G via the external antenna, and it would only give me 4G picked up from the routers inbuilt antenna?

 

Can anyone advise me on the antenna options?

 

Ideally I don't want to drill any holes, and to keep the traditional lines of the boat I'd prefer not to have to stick a pole up off the front bulkhead. I'd love a stick on one that would go on the roof, but if those sort are pretty useless than I would reconsider.

Edited October 23 by junior

[IanD]

45 minutes ago, junior said:

Sorry for the WiFi and TV spam recently, but I'm starting a new thread specifically related to the antenna, as I have all the other hardware I need purchased I think, and although a few people have given me advice on the antenna in other threads, it's got a bit lost and I've got a bit confused.

 

I've purchased a ZYXEL NR5103 EV2, for £150 off eBay. I now need to get an external antenna to plug into it.

 

I've been reading as meany threads as I can regardling getting 5G on the boat, and have seen a few posts which I took to understand that the EV2 is not as good as the EV1 due to is antenna sockets. I do don't know if that's correct, or if I have misunderstood the posts. 

 

I've gone for a 5G router as my partner has to take part in video calls for work via 'Teams', and it will be important for us when we go out on the boat that she can still do this.

 

To give me the best possible chance of getting the best possible WiFi signal, I will be purchasing an external antenna. As I understand it, the NR5103 can pick up a 4G signal when 5G is not available, so need an antenna that will also do this. I presume all 5G antennas will pick up 4G instead when it can't detect a 5G signal?

 

I had read somewhere that the router I have bought only has sockets for a 5G antenna. If correct, does that mean that if there's no 5G signal available, the device won't be able to run on 4G via the external antenna, and it would only give me 4G picked up from the routers inbuilt antenna?

 

Can anyone advise me on the antenna options?

 

Ideally I don't want to drill any holes, and to keep the traditional lines of the boat I'd prefer not to have to stick a pole up off the front bulkhead. I'd love a stick on one that would go on the roof, but if those sort are pretty useless than I would reconsider.

On the 5103E V1 (4x4 MIMO) there are four external antenna sockets which cover 4G and 5G on all bands, they're switched in to replace the 4 internal antennas. This isn't the case for the V2, there are only 2 sockets and it's not clear what bands (and 4G/5G) they cover.

[junior]

14 minutes ago, IanD said:

On the 5103E V1 (4x4 MIMO) there are four external antenna sockets which cover 4G and 5G on all bands, they're switched in to replace the 4 internal antennas. This isn't the case for the V2, there are only 2 sockets and it's not clear what bands (and 4G/5G) they cover.

Would I be right in thinking they do at least cover both 5G and 4G?

 

So if it has just the 2 sockets, does that mean I just need a 2 MIMO antenna?

[IanD]

Just now, junior said:

Would I be right in thinking they do at least cover both 5G and 4G?

 

So if it has just the 2 sockets, does that mean I just need a 2 MIMO antenna?

Yes you only need a 2x2 MIMO antenna. Don't know if the sockets cover both 4G and 5G like the V1, you need to find out from someone who has a V2.

[matty40s]

40 minutes ago, junior said:

Would I be right in thinking they do at least cover both 5G and 4G?

 

So if it has just the 2 sockets, does that mean I just need a 2 MIMO 

Yes, unless you future proof yourself with an aeriel which has 4, just in case the zyxel isnt good enough.

My teltonika aeriel sits up here at our mooring, due to diabolical signal, it sits flat on the roof when we are out.

Edited October 23 by matty40s

[junior]

My mind has been absolutely blown by all this 4G/5G business...

 

I bought the Zyxel NR5103 V2 I posted above. Note it is the version 2 with just the two antenna sockets. 

 

Before I purchase the Poynting 2x2 MIMO antenna that will be compatible with it, do people think It would be worthwhile for me just selling the router on straight away and then purchasing the version 1 router that would have the four antenna sockets and thus 4x4 MIMO compatible?

 

I don't want to spend out on the 2 antenna and then find out it doesn't work and end up having to buy the V1 router and another 4 antenna go work with it.

 

Will the difference between the 2x2 antenna unit and the 4x4 unit be THAT significant?

[IanD]

47 minutes ago, junior said:

My mind has been absolutely blown by all this 4G/5G business...

 

I bought the Zyxel NR5103 V2 I posted above. Note it is the version 2 with just the two antenna sockets. 

 

Before I purchase the Poynting 2x2 MIMO antenna that will be compatible with it, do people think It would be worthwhile for me just selling the router on straight away and then purchasing the version 1 router that would have the four antenna sockets and thus 4x4 MIMO compatible?

 

I don't want to spend out on the 2 antenna and then find out it doesn't work and end up having to buy the V1 router and another 4 antenna go work with it.

 

Will the difference between the 2x2 antenna unit and the 4x4 unit be THAT significant?

If the 2 antenna sockets on the v2 cover all bands (4G and 5G) then you'll be fine with this and a 2x2 MIMO antenna -- you need to find this out though, and it's not easy. Try looking here:

 

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/talk/forums/mobile-broadband-and-fixed-wireless.106/

 

If they don't cover both, get a V1 instead. Or get one (and a 4x4 MIMO antenna) because this should give better reception in poor signal areas, and higher data rates in good ones -- not always, but some of the time.

 

There are cheaper and more expensive antennae for both 2x2 MIMO and 4x4 MIMO, but 4x4 are definitely more expensive:

 

https://www.3grouterstore.co.uk/product-category/5g-antennas/2x2-mimo-5g-antennas/

https://www.3grouterstore.co.uk/product-category/5g-antennas/4x4-mimo-5g-antennas/

 

Generally speaking, the more expensive ones from manufacturers like Poynting and Panorama have higher gain and are more likely to perform to specification than the cheaper ones from no-name suppliers. The flat-panel ones are intended to be used well clear of things like steel boat roofs, so unless you're going to put one up well above the roof on a mast you'll probably be better off with one designed for vehicle roof mounting -- check this in the specs, not all are even if they look like this...

 

Edited October 30 by IanD

[Hudds Lad]

Might be worth comparing price of a new router with price of modding what you have already. Unsure if this works out cheaper or not.

Someone like https://router-mods.co.uk/ could be used as a comparison (i'll add i've never used them so not a recommend, just a point of reference).

I'm still happy with my 4G setup with omni external Poynting, but this may change if we move marinas next year and find the internet lacking with current setup.

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, Hudds Lad said:

Might be worth comparing price of a new router with price of modding what you have already. Unsure if this works out cheaper or not.

Someone like https://router-mods.co.uk/ could be used as a comparison (i'll add i've never used them so not a recommend, just a point of reference).

I'm still happy with my 4G setup with omni external Poynting, but this may change if we move marinas next year and find the internet lacking with current setup.

Their mods to the V2 just swap the 2 TS9 connectors for SMA and bring out the WiFi to SMA, they don't do anything to solve the problem that the external connectors are only 2x2 MIMO (router is 4x4 MIMO internally) or answer the question about whether they cover all bands or not... 😞 

 

https://router-mods.co.uk/product/zyxel-nr5103v2-fwa505-5g-router-modification-services/

[Hudds Lad]

3 minutes ago, IanD said:

Their mods to the V2 just swap the 2 TS9 connectors for SMA and bring out the WiFi to SMA, they don't do anything to solve the problem that the external connectors are only 2x2 MIMO (router is 4x4 MIMO internally) or answer the question about whether they cover all bands or not... 😞 

 

https://router-mods.co.uk/product/zyxel-nr5103v2-fwa505-5g-router-modification-services/

That's not how i read it

 

WIFI Modification – Converts the internal WIFI antennas for external antenna use providing you with 2x SMA WIFI antenna ports.

Full Mod – Provides 2x 4G SMA ports and 2x 5G N77/N78/N79 SMA Ports.

[IanD]

2 minutes ago, Hudds Lad said:

That's not how i read it

 

WIFI Modification – Converts the internal WIFI antennas for external antenna use providing you with 2x SMA WIFI antenna ports.

Full Mod – Provides 2x 4G SMA ports and 2x 5G N77/N78/N79 SMA Ports.

 

You're correct. But that means you need either need 2 2x2 MIMO external antennas, or a 4x4 MIMO one which only acts as a 2x2 MIMO one in each band (lower performance than true 4x4 MIMO). Given the costs involved you might as well swap it out for a V1... 😉 

Edited October 30 by IanD

[GUMPY]

But the unit is originally 4x4 internally so that is then 2 external and 2 internal on 4g. Much the same as the Huawei 818 in standard trim.

 

[IanD]

4 minutes ago, GUMPY said:

But the unit is originally 4x4 internally so that is then 2 external and 2 internal on 4g. Much the same as the Huawei 818 in standard trim.

 

True, but internal antennae inside a steel boat are pretty useless, so it's equivalent to 2x2. Yes that's like the Huawei, but inferior to the 5103Ev1.

[GUMPY]

I have to say surprisingly the 818 was fine inside the boat with just the one 2x2 antenna  outside.

Would have been better modded with 4x4 but I moved off the boat before I got round to it.

 

 

6 minutes ago, IanD said:

inferior to the 5103Ev1.

Doesn't that have only 4 external antenna, 2 for 4g and 2 for 5g and the unused in the UK higher 4g frequencies. So not really 4x4 mimo either.

[IanD]

1 minute ago, GUMPY said:

I have to say surprisingly the 818 was fine inside the boat with just the one 2x2 antenna  outside.

Would have been better modded with 4x4 but I moved off the boat before I got round to it.

 

 

If the signal level is good than any router with any antenna is OK. The differences show up when signal levels are poor, and higher data rates with 4x4 MIMO in good signal areas which support it, especially on 5G.

A 3dB difference in gain -- which can easily be seen between different antennae, or short vs. long cables, or 4x4 MIMO vs 2x2 -- means this doubles the area covered by a given basestation, which can be the difference between a usable signal and none, or a high data rate vs. a lower one. If the differences add up this can be even more obvious...

[GUMPY]

Ian you don't have to lecture me on antenna gain etc  I have probably forgotten more about it than you will ever know.

I still have my AR licence G6LOH.

 

[Hudds Lad]

19 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

You're correct. But that means you need either need 2 2x2 MIMO external antennas, or a 4x4 MIMO one which only acts as a 2x2 MIMO one in each band (lower performance than true 4x4 MIMO). Given the costs involved you might as well swap it out for a V1... 😉 

Fair enough, as i said i'm happy at the mo with what we have so not looked into it too deeply. But it always pays to shop around and look at options, even if only to then rule them out.  

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, GUMPY said:

Ian you don't have to lecture me on antenna gain etc  I have probably forgotten more about it than you will ever know.

I still have my AR licence G6LOH.

 

I'm not lecturing you, I'm telling everyone else who doesn't know what you (and I) do... 😉 

 

P.S. I suggest you don't play the "I know better than you card" when you don't know how much the person you're talking to knows -- especially because the way that 4G/5G works (including MIMO and adaptive modulation) bears little resemblance to how analogue amateur radio works... 🙂 

Edited October 30 by IanD

[GUMPY]

Reading various interweb reviews of the V1 they seem to say that the 4 x ts9 sockets are for 4x4 mimo on 5g, no mention of 4g external antenna.

This would make sense as no other 5g router that I have found has sockets for 4g on it.

[IanD]

2 minutes ago, GUMPY said:

Reading various interweb reviews of the V1 they seem to say that the 4 x ts9 sockets are for 4x4 mimo on 5g, no mention of 4g external antenna.

This would make sense as no other 5g router that I have found has sockets for 4g on it.

 

If you dig into a teardown, the external TS9 sockets go into an RF MUX where they're switched in instead of the internal antennas, and there are only these 4 RF signal paths. So the TS9s cover 4G and 5G.

If this wasn't the case, with a router inside the boat nowhere near a window I'd get terrible 4G reception, and in fact it's excellent.

[Gybe Ho]

14 minutes ago, GUMPY said:

Ian you don't have to lecture me on antenna gain etc  I have probably forgotten more about it than you will ever know.

I still have my AR licence G6LOH.

 

 

I found Ian's post useful. You are not the only expert in the village.

[GUMPY]

Just now, IanD said:

So the TS9s cover 4G and 5G.

Yes I've found better info now but but in a very odd order.

CON4/main1 (top) - 4G Primary
CON3 - 5G Diversity
CON2/main2 - 5G Primary
CON1 (bot) - 4G Diversity

 

Having said that it's been suggested that  they are band dependent so it's affected by which bands are in use on 4g and 5g by the carrier

[IanD]

5 minutes ago, GUMPY said:

Yes I've found better info now but but in a very odd order.

CON4/main1 (top) - 4G Primary
CON3 - 5G Diversity
CON2/main2 - 5G Primary
CON1 (bot) - 4G Diversity

 

Having said that it's been suggested that  they are band dependent so it's affected by which bands are in use on 4g and 5g by the carrier

Correct -- and there have also been various disagreements about what each connector does depending on whose posts you read, and some have certainly been wrong.

 

I did mean to do some experimentation with disconnecting different connectors to see what happens, but had better things to do when on board... 😉 

Edited October 30 by IanD

[GUMPY]

Just now, IanD said:

There have also been various disagreements about what each connector does depending on whose posts you read, and some have certainly been wrong.

Certainly is here

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/talk/threads/zyxel-nr5103e-ports-which-does-what.38891/

Even you weren't sure.

[IanD]

5 minutes ago, GUMPY said:

Certainly is here

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/talk/threads/zyxel-nr5103e-ports-which-does-what.38891/

Even you weren't sure.

 

I believe the only thing I said I was sure about is that the external connectors on the v1 definitely cover 4G and 5G -- shorthand for "all bands". The eventual consensus was that all four connectors definitely cover all the frequency bands, with rather less certainly that they all cover 4G and 5G thought some poster were convinced this was the case -- there are other threads about this both on that site and elsewhere, I did a lot of investigation before I bought mine.

 

Either way, what is certain is that the 5103E connected to an external 4x4 MIMO antenna works very well on both 4G and 5G... 🙂 

Edited October 30 by IanD