Clicking when trying to start engine

[Lizette]

On 11/04/2024 at 16:21, Tracy D'arth said:

Engine model?

A new fault or has it been like this for some time?

Did you change anything before this started happening?

How long since you ran the engine?

Where are you?

It's a barrus shire 35. No change  It is always a little temperamental in winter. I have had to jump start over the last few weeks.

Four days ago it would not start when jump starting and just made continuous clicking.

I usually run it every day or so.

I am on the Oxford 

[MtB]

19 minutes ago, Lizette said:

Hi All

So sorry, I have spent all day removing starter motor ,testing battery etc. It seems the battery id defunked but an experienced boater had said he will take it and see if he can work some magic.

The starter motor was thoroughly cleaned and tested and was working off the boat. Tested with someone else's battery.All fine and dandy until I returned it to its rightful place .Although it's no longer clicking it isn't starting the boat. 

It's a mystery! Any next move suggestions?

 

 

Carry out the tests suggested by Tony Brooks and post the results here?!

[Alan de Enfield]

21 minutes ago, Lizette said:

So sorry, I have spent all day removing starter motor ,testing battery etc. It seems the battery id defunked

 

If you had just done as suggested and tested the battery first it would have saved you a lot of time and effort.

People make suggestions for a planned approach to fault finding for a reason.

[Lizette]

On 11/04/2024 at 16:18, Tony Brooks said:

Yes, both the above are good advice.

 

Measure the voltage while you are trying to crank the engine. Do it on the cable clamps, not the lead post. You need it to maintain 10V (Lucas figure), but I dont get too worried about 9.5V as long a sit is not dropping to a marked extent.

 

If the voltage drops below those figures, then:

 

1. Clean the terminals' mating surfaces to bright metal, dress with Vaseline, and refit. maybe not gorilla tight because that can snap the pots out of the battery lid, but properly tight.

 

2. If it still drops, the battery is probably flat or faulty, but it could be a shorting starter motor, so feel the body to see if it is getting well warm.

 

3. This is rare but if the hold in coil inside the starter solenoid detaches one end it will do exactly what you describe, but the cranking voltage would be closer to the rested voltage.

 

4. A seized or jammed engine can also cause this, but in your case it i very unlikely unless it has sucked up some water.

 

 

 

 

Hi  I did test battery and said 13,this was on the clamps. My fellow boater tested this morning and it was 8. The body wasn't getting warm on the starter motor.

A few days ago when trying to jump start I noticed the negative clip was warm,the actual lead.

I have cleaned all posts and as said the starter motor took.

Just now, Lizette said:

Hi  I did test battery and said 13,this was on the clamps. My fellow boater tested this morning and it was 8. The body wasn't getting warm on the starter motor.

A few days ago when trying to jump start I noticed the negative clip was warm,the actual lead.

I have cleaned all posts and as said the starter motor took.

My neighbour has taken the battery to charge now.

[Tony Brooks]

9 minutes ago, Lizette said:

I am on the Oxford 

 Roughly what area?  If south of Banbury I would happily come and have a look & do the voltmeter tests FOC ONCE I get my car back from the garage, but at present I have no idea when that will be.

 

How long do you run for and at what revs every day or so, because it still gives some indications of a flat/faulty start battery and a discharge domestic bank.

2 minutes ago, Lizette said:

Hi  I did test battery and said 13,this was on the clamps. My fellow boater tested this morning and it was 8. The body wasn't getting warm on the starter motor.

 

Well, that tells me that you were not operating the starter at the time, or you have a bad connection between battery and starter - like Arthur found on his boat. Doing voltmeter tests of starting circuits without the starter operating are invalid tests.

[Lizette]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

If you had just done as suggested and tested the battery first it would have saved you a lot of time and effort.

People make suggestions for a planned approach to fault finding for a reason.

Hi I didn't look at replies until just now because my neighbour said he would test it.

I always listen to advice and actually I have quite enjoyed trouble shooting. I am sorry if people feel I haven't tak n on board suggestions but that is not the case.

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

If you had just done as suggested and tested the battery first it would have saved you a lot of time and effort.

People make suggestions for a planned approach to fault finding for a reason.

Hi As said previously I did test battery. As soon as my battery is returned I shall test whilst cranking.

10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

If you had just done as suggested and tested the battery first it would have saved you a lot of time and effort.

People make suggestions for a planned approach to fault finding for a reason.

I learnt a lot from removing the starter motor,so time not wasted.

9 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 Roughly what area?  If south of Banbury I would happily come and have a look & do the voltmeter tests FOC ONCE I get my car back from the garage, but at present I have no idea when that will be.

 

How long do you run for and at what revs every day or so, because it still gives some indications of a flat/faulty start battery and a discharge domestic bank.

I run it for a couple of hours each day on over 10 on speedometer. How I was shown when I bought the boat.

On 11/04/2024 at 16:18, Tony Brooks said:

Yes, both the above are good advice.

 

Measure the voltage while you are trying to crank the engine. Do it on the cable clamps, not the lead post. You need it to maintain 10V (Lucas figure), but I dont get too worried about 9.5V as long a sit is not dropping to a marked extent.

 

If the voltage drops below those figures, then:

 

1. Clean the terminals' mating surfaces to bright metal, dress with Vaseline, and refit. maybe not gorilla tight because that can snap the pots out of the battery lid, but properly tight.

 

2. If it still drops, the battery is probably flat or faulty, but it could be a shorting starter motor, so feel the body to see if it is getting well warm.

 

3. This is rare but if the hold in coil inside the starter solenoid detaches one end it will do exactly what you describe, but the cranking voltage would be closer to the rested voltage.

 

4. A seized or jammed engine can also cause this, but in your case it i very unlikely unless it has sucked up some water.

 

 

 

 

How would I know if the engine has sucked up water? Any tell tale signs?

On 11/04/2024 at 18:50, Tony Brooks said:

 

A very good point.

Yes

22 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 Roughly what area?  If south of Banbury I would happily come and have a look & do the voltmeter tests FOC ONCE I get my car back from the garage, but at present I have no idea when that will be.

 

How long do you run for and at what revs every day or so, because it still gives some indications of a flat/faulty start battery and a discharge domestic bank.

 

Well, that tells me that you were not operating the starter at the time, or you have a bad connection between battery and starter - like Arthur found on his boat. Doing voltmeter tests of starting circuits without the starter operating are invalid tests.

Ok,will hopefully do test tomorrow and report back.

[Tony Brooks]

15 minutes ago, Lizette said:

Hi I didn't look at replies until just now because my neighbour said he would test it.

I always listen to advice and actually I have quite enjoyed trouble shooting. I am sorry if people feel I haven't tak n on board suggestions but that is not the case.

Hi As said previously I did test battery. As soon as my battery is returned I shall test whilst cranking.

I learnt a lot from removing the starter motor,so time not wasted.

I run it for a couple of hours each day on over 10 on speedometer. How I was shown when I bought the boat.

How would I know if the engine has sucked up water? Any tell tale signs?

Yes

 

A bit over 1000 rpm (10 on the rev counter) is good enough, but if you have an inverter and use it, then it may not be enough during the winter. If you don't have an accurate ammeter, then I would suggest about 4 hours a day is best to keep your batteries in fair condition. If you have a fair bit of solar, then you would need far less engine charging in summer.

 

The chances of the engine sucking up water is very remote unless the boat was flooded, so you can discount that. Tell tail signs - the engine turns a fraction and then locks solid, then the starter may get hot and eventually machine gun (rapid clicking).

[Lizette]

5 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

A bit over 1000 rpm (10 on the rev counter) is good enough, but if you have an inverter and use it, then it may not be enough during the winter. If you don't have an accurate ammeter, then I would suggest about 4 hours a day is best to keep your batteries in fair condition. If you have a fair bit of solar, then you would need far less engine charging in summer.

 

The chances of the engine sucking up water is very remote unless the boat was flooded, so you can discount that. Tell tail signs - the engine turns a fraction and then locks solid, then the starter may get hot and eventually machine gun (rapid clicking).

Yes,I do have an inverter,so perhaps not running engine as long as I should. I do have a panel(thank goodness).

 

Ah,good news regarding engine then as no flooding .

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, Lizette said:

Yes,I do have an inverter,so perhaps not running engine as long as I should. I do have a panel(thank goodness).

 

Ah,good news regarding engine then as no flooding .

 

What do you mean by "a panel" please? That could be anything from a remote inverter read out panel, the typical engine control panel with a variety of instruments or if you are lucky a battery monitor read out and controls. If the latter and it has an ammeter function, then there is a pretty accurate way of knowing when the domestic batteries are more or less fully charged.

 

It is not so much an inverter as such, although cheaper ones tend to use a lot of electricity just to work themselves when turned on, but people with inverters often run mains equipment that they would not do when on 12V. Without knowing a lot about the appliances you use and for how long and the alternator(s) output, it is difficult to make any valid suggestions about battery charging.

Edited April 13 by Tony Brooks

[Tracy D'arth]

2 hours ago, Lizette said:

It's a barrus shire 35. No change  It is always a little temperamental in winter. I have had to jump start over the last few weeks.

Four days ago it would not start when jump starting and just made continuous clicking.

I usually run it every day or so.

I am on the Oxford 

Jump starting points towards low or knackered engine battery.

If it won't start with jump leads then either the jump leads are thin rubbish ( you only need one to jump off the cabin batteries positive to the engine battery positive so use both leads together if they are thin ) OR you have a bad connection, you did say that the negative got hot?  Classic bad connection.

Run it till the batteries are charged which is not 2 hours every day or so, you will destroy batteries doing this.

If on the Oxford, ask Tony to come and show you how to charge batteries and find your problem.

[MtB]

41 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

What do you mean by "a panel" please?

 

I puzzled about that too, then realised its probably "solar panel".

 

 

[Lizette]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

What do you mean by "a panel" please? That could be anything from a remote inverter read out panel, the typical engine control panel with a variety of instruments or if you are lucky a battery monitor read out and controls. If the latter and it has an ammeter function, then there is a pretty accurate way of knowing when the domestic batteries are more or less fully charged.

 

It is not so much an inverter as such, although cheaper ones tend to use a lot of electricity just to work themselves when turned on, but people with inverters often run mains equipment that they would not do when on 12V. Without knowing a lot about the appliances you use and for how long and the alternator(s) output, it is difficult to make any valid suggestions about battery charging.

I was responding to your points that you sent. You asked if I had a solar panel with reference to charging batteries in the summer.

[Tony Brooks]

16 minutes ago, Lizette said:

I was responding to your points that you sent. You asked if I had a solar panel with reference to charging batteries in the summer.

 

Thanks, is it or them in excess of 100 watts or so because much less than that and although it will fully charge an unused battery over winter or with a few days with not electrical use, but it may only contribute to battery charging during the summer, but as you run the engine every two days it all helps.

 

If its convenient, I would use the alternator later in the day so you get maximum benefit from the midday sun.

[Lizette]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

What do you mean by "a panel" please? That could be anything from a remote inverter read out panel, the typical engine control panel with a variety of instruments or if you are lucky a battery monitor read out and controls. If the latter and it has an ammeter function, then there is a pretty accurate way of knowing when the domestic batteries are more or less fully charged.

 

It is not so much an inverter as such, although cheaper ones tend to use a lot of electricity just to work themselves when turned on, but people with inverters often run mains equipment that they would not do when on 12V. Without knowing a lot about the appliances you use and for how long and the alternator(s) output, it is difficult to make any valid suggestions about battery charging.

The plot thickens because I have no 12 volt,24 working and inverter working. So something has shorted. 

2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Thanks, is it or them in excess of 100 watts or so because much less than that and although it will fully charge an unused battery over winter or with a few days with not electrical use, but it may only contribute to battery charging during the summer, but as you run the engine every two days it all helps.

 

If its convenient, I would use the alternator later in the day so you get maximum benefit from the midday sun.

It is 600w . I try to run engine until it shows 14.6 which will obviously drop when engine switches off. It generally remains at 12.7 or 12.8.

[rusty69]

I haven't read all this thread, but you haven't got one of them crappy red tab isolator switches that is dropping voltage have you? 

[MtB]

44 minutes ago, Lizette said:

It is 600w . I try to run engine until it shows 14.6 which will obviously drop when engine switches off. It generally remains at 12.7 or 12.8.

 

600W is LOADS! I had 560W when I lived aboard and it kept me going without running the engine at all for nine months of the year. 

 

But this is to confuse the domestic battery bank with the engine starter battery. Mine charged the domestic bank as yours prolly does too! 

 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

52 minutes ago, Lizette said:

The plot thickens because I have no 12 volt,24 working and inverter working. So something has shorted. 

 

It is very unlikely to be a short circuit because if it were only a one or two circuits would fail when a fuse blew, or if the fuse did not then the wiring would probably have caught fire.

 

This sounds more like a major break in the domestic battery circuit close to the batteries, and Rusty 69 is correct about crappy master switches with a red removable plastic key. if you have then one screw up a little ball of paper and put it under the key before you twist it down. That will often make it work temporarily.

 

As we are now talking about the domestic battery bank, it sounds like a bad connection between a battery clamps and cable or more likely loose or dirty battery terminals. When you say that you cleaned the battery terminals, did you use abrasive paper or a knife to scrape both the terminal post and inside the terminal to bright metal. Especially the negative terminals.

 

Inverters, especially inverter-chargers, often have a separate feed from the domestic bank with only a fuse in the line, so it is perfectly possible that the inverter works but the 12V circuits don't. There may be a big fuse in the main feed to the 12V domestic fuse/distribution board.

 

600W of solar should keep the batteries well charged for a lot of the year.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lizette said:

It is 600w . I try to run engine until it shows 14.6 which will obviously drop when engine switches off. It generally remains at 12.7 or 12.8.

 

the 12.7 to 12.8 V after a small load has been turned on for a short while or the battery has been left to stand for a while without charging shows that you are getting the DOMESTIC bank more or less fully charged, although 14.6v is not a reliable way of inferring fully charged, but seems to be working for you.

 

How many alternators do you have, I expect it is two, and if so the 12.7V only applies to the domestic bank. In most, but not all cases, solar charging is only for the domestic bank so how do you know the alternator is charging the engine battery. I am still leaning to a faulty engine battery.

 

 

[Lizette]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

It is very unlikely to be a short circuit because if it were only a one or two circuits would fail when a fuse blew, or if the fuse did not then the wiring would probably have caught fire.

 

This sounds more like a major break in the domestic battery circuit close to the batteries, and Rusty 69 is correct about crappy master switches with a red removable plastic key. if you have then one screw up a little ball of paper and put it under the key before you twist it down. That will often make it work temporarily.

 

As we are now talking about the domestic battery bank, it sounds like a bad connection between a battery clamps and cable or more likely loose or dirty battery terminals. When you say that you cleaned the battery terminals, did you use abrasive paper or a knife to scrape both the terminal post and inside the terminal to bright metal. Especially the negative terminals.

 

Inverters, especially inverter-chargers, often have a separate feed from the domestic bank with only a fuse in the line, so it is perfectly possible that the inverter works but the 12V circuits don't. There may be a big fuse in the main feed to the 12V domestic fuse/distribution board.

 

600W of solar should keep the batteries well charged for a lot of the year.

 

 

 

the 12.7 to 12.8 V after a small load has been turned on for a short while or the battery has been left to stand for a while without charging shows that you are getting the DOMESTIC bank more or less fully charged, although 14.6v is not a reliable way of inferring fully charged, but seems to be working for you.

 

How many alternators do you have, I expect it is two, and if so the 12.7V only applies to the domestic bank. In most, but not all cases, solar charging is only for the domestic bank so how do you know the alternator is charging the engine battery. I am still leaning to a faulty engine battery.

 

 

I didn't clean the leisure batteries. I have been working on the starter battery.

The solar panel is not working either. I am wondering whether when working on the starter battery and had power off that not enough power has gone to leisure batteries but that does not explain the solar panel. 

I shall try the paper trick . Obviously,now I have to find a way of ensuring my leisure batteries do not go flat as I cannot rely on engine or solar panel. Sorry for the late message. AHH,boats,such fun 😊

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

600W is LOADS! I had 560W when I lived aboard and it kept me going without running the engine at all for nine months of the year. 

 

But this is to confuse the domestic battery bank with the engine starter battery. Mine charged the domestic bank as yours prolly does too! 

 

 

 

Yes,that's right . I didn't connect solar panel to starter battery.

2 hours ago, rusty69 said:

I haven't read all this thread, but you haven't got one of them crappy red tab isolator switches that is dropping voltage have you? 

Yes,I do.

[Tony Brooks]

If your solar is not working, it again points to that master switch, battery terminals or a blown maim fuse. If the ball of paper trick I mentioned above does not work, disconnect the domestic bank negative (so you can't cause a short circuit with the spanner) and the put all the cables that are on the switch terminals on one terminal stud. then reconnect the batteries. If you then have your 12V circuits back, the switch is faulty. If you have a similar switch for the engine battery then that may also be faulty.

 

As most solar controllers are dual 12/24 volt it is VITAL that the batteries are connected to it BEFORE the panels, so it can sense the voltage and set itself.

 

Now you really should disconnect your panels from the controller in some way or cover them so they don't generate anything. keep them disconnected/covered until you ensure you have battery voltage at the controller OUTPUT/battery connections. If you do not, there is every chance the controller will default to 24 volts and start charging the 12V bank well in excess of 15 volts. that is not good and will damage a 12V battery bank.

[Lizette]

57 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

If your solar is not working, it again points to that master switch, battery terminals or a blown maim fuse. If the ball of paper trick I mentioned above does not work, disconnect the domestic bank negative (so you can't cause a short circuit with the spanner) and the put all the cables that are on the switch terminals on one terminal stud. then reconnect the batteries. If you then have your 12V circuits back, the switch is faulty. If you have a similar switch for the engine battery then that may also be faulty.

 

As most solar controllers are dual 12/24 volt it is VITAL that the batteries are connected to it BEFORE the panels, so it can sense the voltage and set itself.

 

Now you really should disconnect your panels from the controller in some way or cover them so they don't generate anything. keep them disconnected/covered until you ensure you have battery voltage at the controller OUTPUT/battery connections. If you do not, there is every chance the controller will default to 24 volts and start charging the 12V bank well in excess of 15 volts. that is not good and will damage a 12V battery bank.

Ok,so I woke up this morning to find the fuse lights flashing ,which eventually stopped . Leisure batteries at 13.8! Everything is working......except the water pump!

 

I do have a spare water pump and I shall let this sit for a while because I have a feeling it will miraculously recover.

The paper under the switch did not work,I tried it last night.

[Tony Brooks]

Sorry, I don't understand "fuse lights flashing". If a fuse or circuit breaker has a light associated with it. Usually, it either illuminates when the circuit breaker is turned on or when a fuse blows. I have yet to come across one that flashes, although a light monitoring "electronic boxes" like charge controllers do flash under fault conditions.

 

This is all very odd, I doubt it is an actual pump fault, more likely a wring or circuit fault.

 

Take a very good look at the main cables (pos and neg) between the battery terminals and the domestic fuse/beaker/distribution board. Especially the negative.

[Lizette]

30 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Sorry, I don't understand "fuse lights flashing". If a fuse or circuit breaker has a light associated with it. Usually, it either illuminates when the circuit breaker is turned on or when a fuse blows. I have yet to come across one that flashes, although a light monitoring "electronic boxes" like charge controllers do flash under fault conditions.

 

This is all very odd, I doubt it is an actual pump fault, more likely a wring or circuit fault.

 

Take a very good look at the main cables (pos and neg) between the battery terminals and the domestic fuse/beaker/distribution board. Especially the negative.

Yes,it's a mystery to me too! I shall check what you have suggested.

I seem to always have a run of issues,sometimes not always linked. Great for learning more but a little worrying when they come on top of each other😊

With regard to starter motor and battery issue ,hopefully,be able to run test later today and will have more info.

Thanks

[Lizette]

On 14/04/2024 at 09:06, Lizette said:

Yes,it's a mystery to me too! I shall check what you have suggested.

I seem to always have a run of issues,sometimes not always linked. Great for learning more but a little worrying when they come on top of each other😊

With regard to starter motor and battery issue ,hopefully,be able to run test later today and will have more info.

Thanks

Just an update on starter battery and starter motor .All seemed fine battery was charged up ,I double checked starter motor . 

Installed and not working . We used a booster and tried to start it ,we saw smoke coming from under the engine and smelt burning.

We think it is a s solenoid with one lead coming from it. We think it goes to fuel injection but unsure at the moment.

I have no idea if this is any way connected to my existing problem .

I shall attempt to get under and take photos.

I am looking through manual for engine and attempting to identify it at the moment.

I don't want to give up but maybe a call to RCR is inevitable. 

[Paul C]

On 13/04/2024 at 16:07, Lizette said:

..........

The starter motor was thoroughly cleaned and tested and was working off the boat. Tested with someone else's battery.All fine and dandy until I returned it to its rightful place .Although it's no longer clicking it isn't starting the boat. 

It's a mystery! Any next move suggestions?

........

 

46 minutes ago, Lizette said:

Just an update on starter battery and starter motor .All seemed fine battery was charged up ,I double checked starter motor . 

Installed and not working . We used a booster and tried to start it ,we saw smoke coming from under the engine and smelt burning.

We think it is a s solenoid with one lead coming from it. We think it goes to fuel injection but unsure at the moment.

I have no idea if this is any way connected to my existing problem .

I shall attempt to get under and take photos.

I am looking through manual for engine and attempting to identify it at the moment.

I don't want to give up but maybe a call to RCR is inevitable. 

 

If the above two posts are to be taken as correct, then it points to something wrong with the installation of the starter, and/or a (partly) seized engine. Using the principles of checking what's easiest first, I'd suggest next step is to bar over the engine. (If you can't do this, or you don't know what a "normal" engine should feel like for resistance when its done, there is little value in yourself doing so).

 

The other possibility - incorrect starter installation - has so many variables that its not worth going into them just yet (without sight of the engine it would be a guessing game).

[Tony Brooks]

Many thanks for the update, and sorry it is not sorted.

 

I seem to recall someone said that you had a Barrus Shire engine, so have been looking at manuals and images. If it is something different, ignore this and let us know exactly what it is.

 

It seems the starter motor has a top mounted solenoid well above the engine bed so that won't smoke from under the engine.

 

The Non Canal boat engine manual suggests that there may be a start relay, but there seems to be no mention of this on the canal boat range. Such a relay should be mounted higher on or beside the engine, so even if you have one it should not be under the engine.

 

If there is something under the engine, it seems unusual.

 

There is likely to be something low down on an engine bed or on a starer mounting bolt, the starter negative terminal (if there is one) or probably a gearbox or flywheel housing mounting stud/bolt and that would be a main negative "earth" connection. This could look as if it may be under the engine and if the smoke is coming from there then Arthur got it right. If that connection is loose, dirty, or the cable strands are loose in the terminal, it would smoke and give you symptoms.

 

I await the next instalment with interest.