Dear Dr F.J. ter Heide, General Manager MASTERVOLT ....

[GreenHeaven]

After several months of frustration trying to reach you or anyone in the Netherland and US, where phone calls languish on hold for hours, I would like to bring a few things to your attention

 

My Alpha Pro 2 needs an interface to adjust the settings and came with no temp sensor

After scrounging a USB interface and downloading v 2.36 of master adjust (renamed master cant adjust after 4hrs of frustration) I realized that USER DEFINED option is now missing from the battery type drop down!

 

There is also no manual for the software. I have managed to surmise some fields from the Alternator manual, but no info about the meaning of MLI in the battery type drop down - presumably some kind of Li Ion ?

 

Return Voltage - voltage at which charger returns to bulk mode presumably

 

I know you are very smart cos you have Dr thing, and I am just a bumbling peasant, but I would like to know how to terminate the charge WITHOUT more of your expensive frustrating devices for my LiPo4 pack?

 

Thank you

Please resign ASAP!

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

And your point is ?

[GreenHeaven]

I have an alternator. Dont hold it against me. I am trying to come up with an automatic way to regulate it such that the LA starter battery can get recharged and not overcharge the LiPo pack when doing long days of motoring.

After a GREAT deal of messing about for the last year, I just have a big rotary switch to disconnect the LiPo pack by hand (the LA  starter battery is permanently connected to the alt

The LiPos are sealed drop in total 600a w internal BMS over bluefluf. 

 

Other crimes I confessed at the Lithium crimes tribuneral:

guilty of many partial charge / discharge cycles
guilty of never reaching full charge in the winter
guilty of going to sleep and wking up to find all batteries at 10v cutoff by BMS
guilty of using cheep MMPT solar controller "lithium" setting for fully chargin batteries
guilty of wakespeed envy
guilty of Mastervolt tech stalking
guilty of apathy and lithium abuse
guilty of scan reading thread AND FALLING ASLEEP
https://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?/topic/116513-lfp-charge-termination/#comment-2846012

 

I should be flogged but, instead Im going to drive you nuts with all this

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, GreenHeaven said:

Other crimes I confessed at the Lithium crimes tribuneral:

 

Surely your main crime was buying something with "Mastervolt" on the box....?

 

 

 

[GreenHeaven]

yes well the country I am in has a SEVERE import duty, and it just happened that a local shop had an old Alpha Pro 2 that i got for a great price since the new model is ver is 3.

After a lot of research it turns out to be a LOW side regulator, and I have a alt that had a HIGH side regulator, requiring some alt rewiring. The stock charging settings do a failry good job of keeping current around 0.2c but I have never taken the pack to full charge with the alt because I am sure the (UNKNOWN) stock profile is for LA and has 280mins at float voltage - whatever that might be

 

WHAT I AM REALLY LOOKING FOR IS AN OLD VERSION OF MASTERADJUST software.

 

Or perhaps a login code for the new version?

 

I suspect that this latest version has had USER DEFINED battery type removed, and this is what I was counting on to set the charge profile

Edited January 15 by GreenHeaven

[dmr]

The new Arco Zeus controller looks like a better option then the Alpha pro and can be set with blueteeth right from your phone.

Downsides are its quite expensive and still a very new design.

I have looked at the Alpha pro data but it cant do alternator temperature etc unless its part of a bussed up mastervolt system, so probably not ideal for a lithium system..

The AlphaPro instructions do make it feel like it is really intended to be part of a system rather than a stand alone device.

[GreenHeaven]

I am not able to buy anything else duy to import duty as mentioned

The unit is sold as a stand alone item when in fact it requires a USB adaptor to configure

 

In testing today, the numbers the unit is showing are incorrect

The unit reports sense voltage 14.06, meter says 13.46 

Battery Voltage 14.09, meter says 13.5

Bulk Config set to 14.25v - software says alt 14.5v

 

small engine mode set to 1000rpm - no change in field current (2.3a to excite aprox 120a)

small engine mode set to 4000rpm - no change in field current

 

no idea what alt rpm event is

 

Total run time reporting 2680 minutes (45hrs) - i picked this thing up 6hrs ago and spent most of that time crawling thru the weboshpere

 

 

Edited January 15 by GreenHeaven

[nicknorman]

I don’t have an alpha pro but I do have some familiarity with other MV kit. As I understand it, you need a Mastershunt connected for the Alpha Pro to be good with Li batteries - it gives charge current, SoC and battery temperature to the Alpha Pro.

 

I have Masteradjust v2.20 for windows. It’s 4.4Mb so I could email it to you if you give me your email. However as I understand it the way Masteradjust works is that MV devices broadcast the parameters that can be adjusted, MA picks that up and presents a form on which you can change those parameters. So the list of parameters that can be adjusted is not built into Masteradjust, and so if a parameter you are expecting is missing, I think it’s more likely that the device doesn’t support editing that parameter rather than anything to do with MA itself.

 

It is tricky to get an alternator control system that covers all the requirements for Li, with a stand alone AP you at least have protection against the alternator overheating but not much else. Wakespeed excepted, but it is expensive! You could use a BMV712 or other battery monitor with a built in relay to control the “reg on” input to the AP, such that the AP is shut down when the SoC reaches the value set on the BMV. Or if absolutely no new equipment is possible, fit a switch in the “reg on” line so that you can manually turn off the alternator when the batteries are charged.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

And your point is ?

 

Sometimes companies that don't respond to repeated enquiries and ignore users of their products deserve their tardy attitude to customer service exposing to a wider audience.

[GreenHeaven]

57 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

I don’t have an alpha pro but I do have some familiarity with other MV kit. As I understand it, you need a Mastershunt connected for the Alpha Pro to be good with Li batteries - it gives charge current, SoC and battery temperature to the Alpha Pro.

 

I have Masteradjust v2.20 for windows. It’s 4.4Mb so I could email it to you if you give me your email. However as I understand it the way Masteradjust works is that MV devices broadcast the parameters that can be adjusted, MA picks that up and presents a form on which you can change those parameters. So the list of parameters that can be adjusted is not built into Masteradjust, and so if a parameter you are expecting is missing, I think it’s more likely that the device doesn’t support editing that parameter rather than anything to do with MA itself.

 

It is tricky to get an alternator control system that covers all the requirements for Li, with a stand alone AP you at least have protection against the alternator overheating but not much else. Wakespeed excepted, but it is expensive! You could use a BMV712 or other battery monitor with a built in relay to control the “reg on” input to the AP, such that the AP is shut down when the SoC reaches the value set on the BMV. Or if absolutely no new equipment is possible, fit a switch in the “reg on” line so that you can manually turn off the alternator when the batteries are charged.

yes I agree on these points

I am trying to find another Alpha Pro 2 owner that has had success with either small engine mode, or USER DEFINED settings, let alone real voltages being sensed

Even with a current sensing shunt, the charge profile cant adapt as far as I can see. I dont see anything anywhere to suggest this the AP2 can terminate charging based upon a current threshold... but then there are ZERO documents for the software and rudimentary coverage of charging regimens in the AP2 manual or the AP3 manual.

 

Unless Dr, Heide has different information, I deem this unit unfit for any purpose

 

I cant even figure out how to determine if the AP2 software version 1.4 is the latest version of firmware

 

As mentioned, I have a switch to disconnect the lipo pack from the alt (leaving it to charge the LA starter battery) 

I have never charged the LIPo pack with the alternator. I can watch the current and the voltage of each of the BMS individually to determine when the current drops, but what voltage and current numbers to use?

each battery is a 150ah drop in. they pull about 27-30 amps each when charging when that drops to ???? i will disconnect them.

 

Would appreciate the installer for v2.20 ill pm you... 

 

small problem, I need 10 posts to pm you

Edited January 15 by GreenHeaven

[nicknorman]

You had better make some more posts then!

Generally LiFePO4 charge termination current is 5% of capacity. The charge voltage is less critical unless you desperately want to get the last 1/10 Ah into it, I use 14.3v. So I charge to 14.3v until the current drops to 5% of capacity, wait a couple of minutes for the BMV712 and Mastershunt to synchronise to 100%, then stop charging. I could have made it 14.6v (3.65v/cell) but I didn't feel the need to go that high and it gets very little extra Ah in. Less than 0.1%

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, MJG said:

Sometimes companies that don't respond to repeated enquiries and ignore users of their products deserve their tardy attitude to customer service exposing to a wider audience.

 

Then why not say that rather than posting something that looks to assume that the GM of Mastervolt is a forum member and that this is the only way to contact him.

 

We still do not know which country the OP is in that has such high duty that it stops him importing the necessary parts.

 

Importing into the UK is subject to swingeing taxes, legislation and import duties, I  looked at bringing in some boats from the US and by the time I would have actually got my hands on them and made them legal to use the price had doubled.

 

My Son lives in Cambodia and there the Import duty on all 'finished goods' (such as alcohol, petroleum products, cars, etc etc) are subject to a minimum of 35% duty and then VAT is added to the total.

He is looking to take the boat (The CAT) out to Asia (we are not using it enough) so thinking to base it in Thailand as it would be cheaper (no import duty and only 7% VAT payable on arrival) and for him to fly out (local puddle hopper) to it even if he went a couple of times a month.

 

2 hours ago, GreenHeaven said:

I am not able to buy anything else duy to import duty as mentioned

 

Edited January 15 by Alan de Enfield

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Then why not say that rather than posting something that looks to assume that the GM of Mastervolt is a forum member and that this is the only way to contact him.

 

 

 

It was obvious it was an 'open letter' type post, not really one assuming the addressee is a forum member. Well to me anyway.

[GreenHeaven]

31 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

You had better make some more posts then!

Generally LiFePO4 charge termination current is 5% of capacity. The charge voltage is less critical unless you desperately want to get the last 1/10 Ah into it, I use 14.3v. So I charge to 14.3v until the current drops to 5% of capacity, wait a couple of minutes for the BMV712 and Mastershunt to synchronise to 100%, then stop charging. I could have made it 14.6v (3.65v/cell) but I didn't feel the need to go that high and it gets very little extra Ah in. Less than 0.1%

I have made 11 posts and still not able to pm you. Perhaps you could pm me and ill try to respond

 

 

[Rob-M]

I had a brief discussion with a lithium installer who uses an Alpha Pro as part of the install and he said he has to fit a manual switch to turn off alternator charging as this can't be done with the Alpha Pro.

[GreenHeaven]

18 hours ago, Rob-M said:

I had a brief discussion with a lithium installer who uses an Alpha Pro as part of the install and he said he has to fit a manual switch to turn off alternator charging as this can't be done with the Alpha Pro.

this is nuts. this regulator needs to able to be switched between charging and maintaining so that the alt can provide power on long motoring journeys. Turning the alt on and off all day would get old very quickly

19 hours ago, nicknorman said:

You had better make some more posts then!

Generally LiFePO4 charge termination current is 5% of capacity. The charge voltage is less critical unless you desperately want to get the last 1/10 Ah into it, I use 14.3v. So I charge to 14.3v until the current drops to 5% of capacity, wait a couple of minutes for the BMV712 and Mastershunt to synchronise to 100%, then stop charging. I could have made it 14.6v (3.65v/cell) but I didn't feel the need to go that high and it gets very little extra Ah in. Less than 0.1%

Thank you for the masteradjust v2.2

It also did not have the USER DEFINED field.

I now assume it must be the firmware in the Alpha Pro 2

I can find no source for this or even what the current version is

[nicknorman]

44 minutes ago, GreenHeaven said:

this is nuts. this regulator needs to able to be switched between charging and maintaining so that the alt can provide power on long motoring journeys. Turning the alt on and off all day would get old very quickly

Thank you for the masteradjust v2.2

It also did not have the USER DEFINED field.

I now assume it must be the firmware in the Alpha Pro 2

I can find no source for this or even what the current version is

I think it is unlikely that the firmware is user-upgradable.

 

OK so I had a look at the AP2 manual. You can individually set the charge voltages for bulk, absorb and float, therefore no need to have a "user" battery type. You can also set the charge voltage temperature compensation to zero (which is what you want for Li) but also you can specify that the temperature sensor is measuring alternator temperature, not battery temperature which will implicitly give you no charge temperature compensation.

 

You mentioned earlier about the small engine mode etc, bear in mind you need to set up the pulley ratio and number of pole pairs correctly, since this is how the AP calculates engine rpm. The AP only knows the frequency of a phase, and how that relates to engine rpm depends on those things I just mentioned.

 

"RPM event" allows you to send an event to other MV devices to "do something" based on rpm, for example turn on a heavy electrical load when the engine is running fast, turn it off when running at idle. Not useful for you!

 

The AP can also receive events from other MV devices, eg "switch to float phase" could be triggered by an event from a Mastershunt "SoC reached 100%" (or some other % such as 80%). So that is how you would do it properly, having set a float voltage of say 13.4v such that no more current flows into the battery but the alternator can still provide any heavy loads rather than it coming all out of the battery.

However, I heard what you said about not being able to get more kit, and without that I'm afraid the only solution is a switch on the "reg on" input.

 

Reading the manual it is pretty clear that the AP2 was not designed with Li in mind, but it is reasonably flexible when coupled with something else like a Mastershunt.

Edited January 16 by nicknorman

[GreenHeaven]

3 hours ago, nicknorman said:

I think it is unlikely that the firmware is user-upgradable.

 

OK so I had a look at the AP2 manual. You can individually set the charge voltages for bulk, absorb and float, therefore no need to have a "user" battery type. You can also set the charge voltage temperature compensation to zero (which is what you want for Li) but also you can specify that the temperature sensor is measuring alternator temperature, not battery temperature which will implicitly give you no charge temperature compensation.

 

You mentioned earlier about the small engine mode etc, bear in mind you need to set up the pulley ratio and number of pole pairs correctly, since this is how the AP calculates engine rpm. The AP only knows the frequency of a phase, and how that relates to engine rpm depends on those things I just mentioned.

 

"RPM event" allows you to send an event to other MV devices to "do something" based on rpm, for example turn on a heavy electrical load when the engine is running fast, turn it off when running at idle. Not useful for you!

 

The AP can also receive events from other MV devices, eg "switch to float phase" could be triggered by an event from a Mastershunt "SoC reached 100%" (or some other % such as 80%). So that is how you would do it properly, having set a float voltage of say 13.4v such that no more current flows into the battery but the alternator can still provide any heavy loads rather than it coming all out of the battery.

However, I heard what you said about not being able to get more kit, and without that I'm afraid the only solution is a switch on the "reg on" input.

 

Reading the manual it is pretty clear that the AP2 was not designed with Li in mind, but it is reasonably flexible when coupled with something else like a Mastershunt.

I managed to get upgraded firmware from US tech support today who were actually very helpful

I had v1.4, now i have v4.0

The battery oprions now include USER DEFINED and I can access all the fields of the charge profile

I do not have epm working, so that is probably why small engine ,ose is not working as you say. I need to remove the alt and figure out a way to solder a wire to one leg of the diodes to get a pulse

Your suggestion for a mastershunt is a good one. I will keep an eye out for one

Meanwhile I will set the user defined voltages to 13.4, That way I can switch between the internal map for charging and the programmed map with the rotary pot

 

 

 

Edited January 16 by GreenHeaven

[nicknorman]

Ah well that is good re. firmware. For the pulse thing one would normally use the W terminal on the alternator which is normally for driving a tachometer. It is as you say just an ac take-off from one of the phases so if you have no W terminal, a bit of surgery will be required.

[Tony Brooks]

33 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Ah well that is good re. firmware. For the pulse thing one would normally use the W terminal on the alternator which is normally for driving a tachometer. It is as you say just an ac take-off from one of the phases so if you have no W terminal, a bit of surgery will be required.

 

Technical point - the W terminal is half-wave rectified, so pulsed DC. The surgery is just soldering a fly lead to a main diode tag, so no cutting etc. unless needed to get the fly lead outside the case.

 

No idea if it has any relevance in this particular case though.

Edited January 16 by Tony Brooks

[nicknorman]

26 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Technical point - the W terminal is half-wave rectified, so pulsed DC. The surgery is just soldering a fly lead to a main diode tag, so no cutting etc. unless needed to get the fly lead outside the case.

 

No idea if it has any relevance in this particular case though.

 

I am getting a sense of deja vue here and last time I was wrong and you were correct! Yes I think you are right it is roughly a square wave going from roughly zero to roughly Vbatt. It will have a slight negative component due to rectifier diode voltage drop, but not much. Anyway, the main point is that the AP2 can be fed from the W terminal if there is one.

 

Edited January 16 by nicknorman

[Tony Brooks]

47 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

 

I am getting a sense of deja vue here and last time I was wrong and you were correct! Yes I think you are right it is roughly a square wave going from roughly zero to roughly Vbatt. It will have a slight negative component due to rectifier diode voltage drop, but not much. Anyway, the main point is that the AP2 can be fed from the W terminal if there is one.

 

 

Out of interest, I think that the wave will be more a sine than a square, or that is what the scope on the vehicle analyser showed. I accept there are inductors and posisby some capacitance to modify that.

[nicknorman]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Out of interest, I think that the wave will be more a sine than a square, or that is what the scope on the vehicle analyser showed. I accept there are inductors and posisby some capacitance to modify that.

It would be interesting to see it. My thinking was that no current flows through the winding until the voltage is either higher than the battery positive voltage (by a diode drop’s worth) or lower than battery negative (ditto). And since the winding is a current source rather than a voltage source, the voltage would rapidly flip up and down until it was clamped by the diodes.

 

However thinking more about it, the above applies when the alternator is producing plenty of current (lots of field current). When the alternator is producing very little current (low field current) it will be more or less a sine wave.

 

So in summary, square wave when under heavy load, sine wave when under light load. How does that sound?

 

As an aside, alternator controllers avoid fully shutting down the field current when there is no output current demand, because if they did the W output would stop working. So they either have an adjustable minimum field current (Alpha Pro) or in the case of the chip I use, an algorithm to monitor the magnitude of the phase input and keep just enough field current to have it make a minimum voltage so the device can keep track of rpm.

Edited January 16 by nicknorman

[Tony Brooks]

17 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

It would be interesting to see it.

 

I think that you will see it if you put an ordinary (CRT) or very fast digital oscilloscope across the battery and rev the engine. You will only see the top of the waves as a DC ripple but they are very much like a sine wave.

[nicknorman]

42 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I think that you will see it if you put an ordinary (CRT) or very fast digital oscilloscope across the battery and rev the engine. You will only see the top of the waves as a DC ripple but they are very much like a sine wave.

Ah yes that I can agree with. But that is not the same as the waveform on the W terminal.