A CC supporter on You Tube

[frangar]

5 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

As you must be well aware by now, the conditions a marina sets for its operation are not the powers given to CRT for its operational legality. The legislature have given power to CRT, but not to the marina. 

 

 

 

If the government can back out of it, I don't care. But if you want the law pertaining to licences to matter, you shouldn't also allow CRT to abuse its position.

 

 

So I ask yet again what are you doing to stop crt abusing its position? How are you going to change their stance on this?

[Arthur Marshall]

41 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

It isn't legal, unless you are out on the cut.

 

 

But you said they were following the law. You really can't have it both ways.

[Higgs]

Just now, Paul C said:

The main issue here is that you don't understand the law and how it applies -

 

If it did apply, licences would not be a demand, made by marinas, for the purpose of keeping a selfish business position.

 

 

1 minute ago, Arthur Marshall said:

But you said they were following the law. You really can't have it both ways.

 

Yes, I use the canal, I have a licence and all the necessary requirements. 

 

 

[Arthur Marshall]

Just now, Higgs said:

 

If it did apply, licences would not be a demand, made by marinas, for the purpose of keeping a selfish business position.

 

 

A selfish business position? Now you're talking nonsense. A business is just a business, there to make a profit. It can't be selfish, that's a human characteristic, like daft.

However, this is an idiotic discussion, so I'll leave your bonnet to its bees.

[Higgs]

6 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

A selfish business position? Now you're talking nonsense. A business is just a business, there to make a profit. It can't be selfish, that's a human characteristic, like daft.

However, this is an idiotic discussion, so I'll leave your bonnet to its bees.

 

I agree that it isn't entirely selfish. They've been held to ransom, as much as they are holding moorers to ransom. 

 

CRT holds the gun to the marina's head, the marina hold one to the moorers' head. It's all done with menace.

 

 

Edited January 2 by Higgs

[Jerra]

I suspect that if marinas were allowed to have boats without licences CRT income would plummet.

 

1.  All those who use the boat as a country cottage and never move wouldn't buy a licence.

 

2.  Those who go out only for the odd weekend would risk not having a licence.

 

3.  Those who go out slightly more often or for an annual holiday might buy a licence but a short-term cheaper one.

 

Do we really want CRT to have another cut in their income?  If it happened imagine how the wails about lack of maintenance would rise.

 

Be careful what you wish for.

[Paul C]

Moorers are free to choose another marina, or not at all (perhaps take up CCing, or not go boating on CRT canals at all) so its not really fair to say they've "been held to ransom". A corollary might be, if I buy a new Vauxhall Corsa, I'm not being "held to ransom" by a Vauxhall dealer insisting its serviced with them. I would have choices - I could go to any other Vauxhall dealer, or an independent garage, or even buy the parts and service it myself.

[Higgs]

1 minute ago, Jerra said:

I suspect that if marinas were allowed to have boats without licences CRT income would plummet.

 

1.  All those who use the boat as a country cottage and never move wouldn't buy a licence.

 

2.  Those who go out only for the odd weekend would risk not having a licence.

 

3.  Those who go out slightly more often or for an annual holiday might buy a licence but a short-term cheaper one.

 

Do we really want CRT to have another cut in their income?  If it happened imagine how the wails about lack of maintenance would rise.

 

Be careful what you wish for.

 

Those who wanted to slap a surcharge on CCers must think they are acting in a fair way. Use of the system can now be calibrated. It's now a concept. Not using it can also be part of calibrating it. 

 

 

3 minutes ago, Paul C said:

Moorers are free to choose another marina, or not at all (perhaps take up CCing, or not go boating on CRT canals at all) so its not really fair to say they've "been held to ransom". A corollary might be, if I buy a new Vauxhall Corsa, I'm not being "held to ransom" by a Vauxhall dealer insisting its serviced with them. I would have choices - I could go to any other Vauxhall dealer, or an independent garage, or even buy the parts and service it myself.

 

OK, we could have every moorer of private marinas pour out onto the cut and see how your.."moorers have a choice" theory goes. 

[Jerra]

1 minute ago, Higgs said:

 

Those who wanted to slap a surcharge on CCers must think they are acting in a fair way. Use of the system can now be calibrated. It's now a concept. Not using it can also be part of calibrating it. 

 

 

As I said be careful what you wish for!   If you are happy with a massive drop in income and the associated degeneration of the system fair enough keep pushing the concept.

 

I would suggest those who don't want to move about get the boat onto a hard standing or buy a land based property.

 

I really can't understand any boater who wishes to reduce the CRT income whether by fighting surcharges or licences for being in a marina.

 

I think "shooting yourself in the foot" fits the bill.

[Paul C]

5 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

Those who wanted to slap a surcharge on CCers must think they are acting in a fair way. Use of the system can now be calibrated. It's now a concept. Not using it can also be part of calibrating it. 

 

 

 

Perhaps you could suggest to CRT they do another consultation?

[Higgs]

Just now, Jerra said:

As I said be careful what you wish for! 

 

What do think I'm wishing for. Just because people think CRT should be funded, it doesn't mean fair or foul means are the same, and that no account should be taken of ethical considerations.

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Higgs said:

 

They are following the law. They've come to a business arrangement with the marinas. But neither the marina, or CRT, can claim to have the statutory right in law, to demand a licence fee payment, according to the law. This business arrangement has nothing to do with moorers..., apart from creating a poor position for the moorers.

 

 

I think that as you are so sure about this you should just not pay it and be happy and let the rest of us just get happily fleeced 

[Higgs]

3 minutes ago, Paul C said:

Perhaps you could suggest to CRT they do another consultation?

 

Perhaps there are plenty of boaters that like having their faces rubbed into it. And CRT can oblige.

 

 

[Mike Todd]

1 hour ago, Higgs said:

 

They are following the law. They've come to a business arrangement with the marinas. But neither the marina, or CRT, can claim to have the statutory right in law, to demand a licence fee payment, according to the law. This business arrangement has nothing to do with moorers..., apart from creating a poor position for the moorers.

 

 

Can you cite a single documented instance of CaRT claiming a statutory right in the context you rail  against?

[Higgs]

1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

I think that as you are so sure about this you should just not pay it and be happy and let the rest of us just get happily fleeced 

 

I don't think so. Why confuse things with myself trying to circumvent the law..

 

 

[Jerra]

3 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

What do think I'm wishing for. Just because people think CRT should be funded, it doesn't mean fair or foul means are the same, and that no account should be taken of ethical considerations.

 

 

Personally, I don't see anything ethical about it.  There are a number of things in life I would have liked to have done but couldn't as I couldn't afford it.  Also, there are things I have had to stop doing because changes made them unaffordable.

 

Life is like that, boating is no different.

[Higgs]

Just now, Mike Todd said:

Can you cite a single documented instance of CaRT claiming a statutory right in the context you rail  against?

 

They haven't got one. That's why they go through a business contract.

 

 

1 minute ago, Jerra said:

Personally, I don't see anything ethical about it.  There are a number of things in life I would have liked to have done but couldn't as I couldn't afford it.  Also, there are things I have had to stop doing because changes made them unaffordable.

 

Life is like that, boating is no different.

 

As I've said before, the MAFIA want funding, and you think it's right for that to be the best argument.

 

 

[Jerra]

2 minutes ago, Higgs said:

As I've said before, the MAFIA want funding, and you think it's right for that to be the best argument.

The mafia are a criminal organisation which criminal organisation are you dragging into the discussion and does it have any relevance?

[Higgs]

4 minutes ago, Jerra said:

The mafia are a criminal organisation which criminal organisation are you dragging into the discussion and does it have any relevance?

 

You and others make the argument that the only justification is in the needing of funds. How does that differ from the Mafia.

 

 

[Jerra]

4 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

You and others make the argument that the only justification is in the needing of funds. How does that differ from the Mafia.

 

 

The difference is simple the mafia kills, robs, etc.  CRT doesn't. 

 

Which of the many laws of the country have CRT broken?  Does the number of laws broken equal those broken by the Mafia?  Was the mafia formed by a legally elected government (albeit elected by a minority of voters)?

[Higgs]

7 minutes ago, Jerra said:

The difference is simple the mafia kills, robs, etc.  CRT doesn't. 

 

Which of the many laws of the country have CRT broken? 

 

 

Yes, the Mafia are an unsavoury bunch. CRT, too, are unsavoury; not, perhaps, in the same league, but nevertheless, have some questionable ethical standards.

 

 

"Which of the many laws of the country have CRT broken?" Which law, that applies to needing a licence, have they or the marinas followed? 

 

 

 

Edited January 2 by Higgs

[Jerra]

2 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

Yes, the Mafia are an savoury bunch. CRT, too, are unsavoury; not, perhaps, in the same league, but nevertheless, have some questionable ethical standards.

 

 

"Which of the many laws of the country have CRT broken?" Which law, that applies to needing a licence, have they or the marinas followed? 

 

So despite your wild assertion, you quote no laws broken and yet liken them to the mafia.  Totally illogical.

 

The situation with the marinas breaks no law it is a business agreement to allow the marina access to the canal.  The marina like all businesses decides if the agreement suits it and its business.   Nothing wrong or illegal merely pragmatism by both sides.

 

I am off out for the day so will have to reply later.

[Arthur Marshall]

15 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

You and others make the argument that the only justification is in the needing of funds. How does that differ from the Mafia.

 

 

I think that there should be a new net rule, like the Nazi one, that anyone who invokes the Mafia automatically loses the argument. Rabbiting on that businesses should be ethical is as potty as the rest of the argument - it's not their remit. Businesses are not people. Their only purposes are to stay in business and preferably make a profit.

In CRT's case that means maximising income and general usage and, unlike most CCers , staying within the law.

[Higgs]

Just now, Jerra said:

So despite your wild assertion, you quote no laws broken and yet liken them to the mafia.  Totally illogical.

 

The situation with the marinas breaks no law it is a business agreement to allow the marina access to the canal.  The marina like all businesses decides if the agreement suits it and its business.   Nothing wrong or illegal merely pragmatism by both sides.

 

I am off out for the day so will have to reply later.

 

The licence is a legal entity. Condition of use and need apply, in a legal framework. The T&Cs of a marina is not the legislature that give authority to the licence conditions.

 

 

[frangar]

@Higgs So I take it from your lack of response to any of my points you are doing nothing to try to change how CRT works or indeed tell us your solution to the funding shortfall? 

 

CRT do indeed have failings and need to be held to account but some of us are active in the pursuit of that rather than just posting on a forum or being the big man on facebook. If you want change I suggest you think about how you are going about it.