External Alternator Regulator

[PCSB]

I'm trying to get my head around what I need to do to install an external regulator. I've spent some time going through the Wakespeed site and videos but I cannot find the answer to my question which is do I need to disable or change anything in the existing alternator in order to use the external regulator?

 

The alternator in question is a 175 Amp one that is fitted as standard to Canaline 42 HP engines. Is this even suitable to use with an external regulator?

 

I've only looked at the Wakespeed WS500 so far as this is the one that most people seem to recommend and it seems to play nicely with Victron gear.

 

I think I'm ok with the physical installation and the various manuals contain a lot of info in that regard.

 

As always TIA

Paul.

 

[Tracy D'arth]

I don't know Wakespeed requirements but usually the alternator will need an extra connection to the field control brush bringing out.

[BEngo]

What are you wanting the Wakespeed to do?  If it is to control the alternator for lithium battery charging you need to disable the existing regulator.  How you do that depends on exactly what sort of alternator it is.

If it is to control the charging of lead acid batteries it can be fitted in parallel with the existing regulator.  Again exactly how you do that depends on the model of alternator.

 

N

.

 

[PeterF]

If you want it do do any of the nice to haves such as reduced power at tickover, control of alternator temperature, having a float stage or shutting down on BMS command etc. then you need to disable the existing regulator.

[nicknorman]

You will need to remove the existing regulator, or at least disconnect it. If your existing alternator is an Iskra (or Mahle) 175A one then I have done this and can show some details. In my case I decided to obtain a new brush unit (cheap, from ebay) which includes the regulator, and used this one for the “surgery” leaving the original one unaltered in case I ever wanted to go back to the internal regulator.

 

Anyway you need to ensure that one brush is connected to ground or positive supply, and other brush has to have a flying wire connected to it which goes to the Wakespeed. The old regulator must be removed from circuit (by snipping its wires). The Wakespeed can be set either for positive or negative regulation so it doesn’t matter if the first brush mentioned above goes to ground or positive supply.

Assuming it is the same or similar to mine, you need to remove the plastic cover on the back to reveal this view

 

 

 

 

 

The regulator / brush unit is held in by the 2 cross head screws to the right of the first picture, and the green painted smaller cross head screw. This smaller green screw is also the connection to the field diodes, which is superfluous with the Wakespeed. Be careful when you undo it because there is a small brass pillar underneath which will no longer be attached. This carries the field diode supply and needs to be removed. Keep it safe in case you ever want to revert to the original regulator. 
 

Remove the brush unit and cut the internal wires to the regulator (the bit at the top of the next picture. Using a meter, find out which wire goes to the brush, and I seem to recall that the other brush is connected to the two larger screws and is thus grounded when the device is re-attached. Solder a wire on to the stub wire that is connected to the other brush, this will go to the wakespeed. I would use silver solder as it has a higher melting point that lead/tin and alternators can get very hot!

 

 

Re-attach the brush unit taking care not to damage the carbon brushes and ensure the seal is properly seated.

Edited October 8, 2023 by nicknorman

[PCSB]

4 hours ago, BEngo said:

What are you wanting the Wakespeed to do?  If it is to control the alternator for lithium battery charging you need to disable the existing regulator.  How you do that depends on exactly what sort of alternator it is.

If it is to control the charging of lead acid batteries it can be fitted in parallel with the existing regulator.  Again exactly how you do that depends on the model of alternator.

 

N

.

 

Just exploring options at the moment but would like better (?) control over charging, plus gives me more flexibility in battery chemistry as and when I change. 

1 hour ago, PeterF said:

If you want it do do any of the nice to haves such as reduced power at tickover, control of alternator temperature, having a float stage or shutting down on BMS command etc. then you need to disable the existing regulator.

Thanks Peter - the reduced power bit is one of the things I am considering.

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

You will need to remove the existing regulator, or at least disconnect it. If your existing alternator is an Iskra (or Mahle) 175A one then I have done this and can show some details. In my case I decided to obtain a new brush unit (cheap, from ebay) which includes the regulator, and used this one for the “surgery” leaving the original one unaltered in case I ever wanted to go back to the internal regulator.

 

Anyway you need to ensure that one brush is connected to ground or positive supply, and other brush has to have a flying wire connected to it which goes to the Wakespeed. The old regulator must be removed from circuit (by snipping its wires). The Wakespeed can be set either for positive or negative regulation so it doesn’t matter if the first brush mentioned above goes to ground or positive supply.

Assuming it is the same or similar to mine, you need to remove the plastic cover on the back to reveal this view

 

 

 

 

 

The regulator / brush unit is held in by the 2 cross head screws to the right of the first picture, and the green painted smaller cross head screw. This smaller green screw is also the connection to the field diodes, which is superfluous with the Wakespeed. Be careful when you undo it because there is a small brass pillar underneath which will no longer be attached. This carries the field diode supply and needs to be removed. Keep it safe in case you ever want to revert to the original regulator. 
 

Remove the brush unit and cut the internal wires to the regulator (the bit at the top of the next picture. Using a meter, find out which wire goes to the brush, and I seem to recall that the other brush is connected to the two larger screws and is thus grounded when the device is re-attached. Solder a wire on to the stub wire that is connected to the other brush, this will go to the wakespeed. I would use silver solder as it has a higher melting point that lead/tin and alternators can get very hot!

 

 

Re-attach the brush unit taking care not to damage the carbon brushes and ensure the seal is properly seated.

Thanks Nick, really helpful. Not sure what brand of alternator but it is likely to be of the same type - it is the standard factory fitted one. Even so the principle will be the same I would think.

[Sea Dog]

Further to @nicknorman 's very helpful post above, when I was eventually able to identify and buy at rrp (and subsequently replace) the Mahle regulator on my Iskra 150a alternator, I was then able to buy an additional identical genuine Mahle unit off eBay for £9. If you need a sacrificial unit, it doesn't necessarily have to be a huge sacrifice.

[nicknorman]

1 minute ago, Sea Dog said:

Further to @nicknorman 's very helpful post above, when I was eventually able to identify and buy at rrp (and subsequently replace) the Mahle regulator on my Iskra 150a alternator, I was then able to buy an additional identical genuine Mahle unit off eBay for £9. If you need a sacrificial unit, it doesn't necessarily have to be a huge sacrifice.

Yes I think my regulator/brush unit was around £15 from ebay.

Edited October 8, 2023 by nicknorman

[Sea Dog]

Just now, nicknorman said:

Yes I think my regulator/brush unit was around £15 from ebay.

I think I paid just over £40 for my first one inc courier. However, that included awesome service identifying both the alternator and the correct regulator so I was happy to reward such a service. 

[PeterF]

On 08/10/2023 at 18:32, nicknorman said:

 

Remove the brush unit and cut the internal wires to the regulator. Using a meter, find out which wire goes to the brush, and I seem to recall that the other brush is connected to the two larger screws and is thus grounded when the device is re-attached. Solder a wire on to the stub wire that is connected to the other brush, this will go to the wakespeed. I would use silver solder as it has a higher melting point that lead/tin and alternators can get very hot!

 

@nicknorman

I have got my brush holder ready to go into my Iskra 175 (Beta 43) converted from a £9.50 ebay regulator. I used high temp insulation wire with sleeving due to concerns with temperature. However, I used standard solder so your warning is timely. The reference to silver solder worries me as a model engineer silver solder means 600degC melting point and gas torch heating (almost low temperature brazing). Having looked around a bit, for electronics, does the term silver soldering refer to the likes of 4% Ag HMP type solder melting at 300degC. I will redo my brush wires before installation.I

 

[Tracy D'arth]

Electrical lead free solder has a higher melting point. There is a higher temperature solder used to solder to hot dropper resistors.

 

Not silver soldering which is almost brazing.

[BEngo]

1 hour ago, PeterF said:

@nicknorman

I have got my brush holder ready to go into my Iskra 175 (Beta 43) converted from a £9.50 ebay regulator. I used high temp insulation wire with sleeving due to concerns with temperature. However, I used standard solder so your warning is timely. The reference to silver solder worries me as a model engineer silver solder means 600degC melting point and gas torch heating (almost low temperature brazing). Having looked around a bit, for electronics, does the term silver soldering refer to the likes of 4% Ag HMP type solder melting at 300degC. I will redo my brush wires before installation.I

 

 

If it has been low temperature soldered the likelihood of getting a good joint with high temperature solder containing silver is very low.

 

N

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, PeterF said:

@nicknorman

I have got my brush holder ready to go into my Iskra 175 (Beta 43) converted from a £9.50 ebay regulator. I used high temp insulation wire with sleeving due to concerns with temperature. However, I used standard solder so your warning is timely. The reference to silver solder worries me as a model engineer silver solder means 600degC melting point and gas torch heating (almost low temperature brazing). Having looked around a bit, for electronics, does the term silver soldering refer to the likes of 4% Ag HMP type solder melting at 300degC. I will redo my brush wires before installation.I

 

Yes sorry I think I meant lead free solder. Which does contain some silver, but not very much. Melting point around 220c instead of 185C for normal lead solder. I noticed that the original brush/regulator had spot welded connections which is why I thought that ordinary leaded solder might have too low a melting point. Mind you the diodes and electronics aren’t likely to survive much over 170c for a prolonged time so maybe it’s an unnecessary worry.

[PeterF]

28 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Yes sorry I think I meant lead free solder. Which does contain some silver, but not very much. Melting point around 220c instead of 185C for normal lead solder. I noticed that the original brush/regulator had spot welded connections which is why I thought that ordinary leaded solder might have too low a melting point. Mind you the diodes and electronics aren’t likely to survive much over 170c for a prolonged time so maybe it’s an unnecessary worry.

Thanks, I will clean the joint off, cut the wire back a bit and use some of my lead free solder. Even though the melting point of lead solder would be OK, I believe you should keep well below that temperature during operation.

Edited October 13, 2023 by PeterF