Dead lamb on Bridgewater canal 1 mile NE of Ye Olde Inn Number 3

[magnetman]

This is a good watch. The application of environmental science in murder investigation.

 

Good waterways detail. A bit gory. Oxford university all rather well educated &c. 

 

 

 

 

A very clever woman doing the lecture. They even investigated how a severed head would travel on the BCN compared with the torso ! 

(1hr lecture by one person using slides)

 

 

17:30 for the detail about the dismembered person found in the BCN main line. Its quite detailed !

Edited September 13, 2023 by magnetman

[jonathanA]

22 hours ago, Friendly kayaker said:

This forum thread had lots of discussion mainly about deer and the need to cull them to reduce the number falling into canals. What struck me was no-one being responsible for ensuring all animals dead or alive are removed after they fall in. 

funnily enough I saw a deer swimming in the L&L few weeks ago at our mooring. There are Deer in the area so assumed it one of the 'locals' who had fallen in.  I wasn't quick enough to get a pic on my phone, and  it was trying to find somewhere to get out.  last seen heading towards appley locks... 

[Friendly kayaker]

I found two points on the Peak Forest Canal yesterday where animals would easily be able to get out. The first according to a local resident was a place where water was able to go under the path into a stream to prevent the canal flooding after heavy rain. The second looked like the turf had been cut away to reveal old stones on the side of the bank. Both look like low cost ways to help animals get out. 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Friendly kayaker
Removed any mention of water depth

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Friendly kayaker said:

As it happens the water on the edge of the canal was only a foot deep and small stones were visible at the bottom.

 

Whilst 'a foot' may be deep enough for a Kayak, don't give C&RT any more bright ideas "sorry, no dredging this year, we are allowing animal egress points to develop naturally"

 

It would be nice to have some 3 feet deep water along side the pilings, then we could actually get boats in near enough to moor.

[Friendly kayaker]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Whilst 'a foot' may be deep enough for a Kayak, don't give C&RT any more bright ideas "sorry, no dredging this year, we are allowing animal egress points to develop naturally"

 

It would be nice to have some 3 feet deep water along side the pilings, then we could actually get boats in near enough to moor.

I wasn't implying the depth of water was part of the solution. I probably shouldn't have mentioned it as it was the step that was the reason for posting. I'll edit it out. 

[magnetman]

The horse ramps, assuming that is what they are, seem interesting to me .

 

By cutting out part of the canal bank you avoid interfering with the operation of moving boats but at the same time you are making the towing path less wide and introducing a previously non -existent risk of the horse falling in the water. 

 

I wonder if these things actually are horse ramps or if they were put in later to deal with the problem of humans ending up in the water as the paths were adopted by more people over time. 

 

It seems odd to cut out such a big piece of the path. 

 

If we take the Regents section of the Grand Union as an example how would people get out of the cut of they fell in. London is a busy place. 

 

It seems plausible these are egress ramps for humans nothing to do with the animals. 

Edited September 14, 2023 by magnetman
minor typos and removal of unusually awkward linguistic situation

[Friendly kayaker]

12 minutes ago, magnetman said:

The horse ramps, assuming that is what they are. seem interesting to me .

 

By cutting out part of the canal bank you avoid interfering with the operation of moving boats but at the same time you are making the the towing path less wide and introducing a previously no existent risk of the horse falling in the water. 

 

I wonder if these things actually are horse ramps or if they were put in later to deal with the problem of humans ending up in the water as the paths were adopted by more people over time. 

 

It seems odd to cut out such a big piece of the path. 

 

If we take the Regents section of the Grand Union as an example how would people get out of the cut of they fell in. London is a busy place. 

 

It seems plausible these are egress ramps for humans nothing to do with the animals. 

To purely let humans out all you would need is a tiny inset area with a ladder which wouldn't protrude into the canal and certainly wouldn't take up so much space. 

 

The pieces of metal used for mooring are really useful as handholds to hold onto when getting in or out of a kayak and could help a swimmer get out. I wish there were more. I've even considered carrying a tent peg in my bouyancy aid to help me if I ever need to climb out where there is thick grass with no handholds. 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Friendly kayaker

[magnetman]

Yes egress ladders are a lot easier to install than these ramps. 

 

I just thought it a bit odd to reduce the width of the path if there were animals walking up and down. 

 

The gain by allowing the animals to get out seems counteracted by the loss of making it more likely they would fall in. 

 

To be fair unless it was a blind mare the animal would probably avoid such an obvious hazard.  

[Pluto]

The ones on the L&LC were planked over, so only open when being used to retrieve a horse. Many of them date from the 1870s-1900s when the canal company were improving facilities for traffic, and were made from concrete. The canal company was an early member of the Concrete Institution. In the Leeds area, the locals called them 'dog washes'. If there were none where a horse had fallen in, you could push a couple of copings into the water to make it easier, and the local bankrangers would repair the coping next time they were passing.

[Ronaldo47]

A couple of decades ago there was an article in (I think) Waterways World which included some words from an interview with an old bargee about his life on the canals around the turn of the 19th century when horses were still being used. From memory,  It was something like:

 

"We used to buy anything cheap, the bolters, biters, and kickers. But the bolters couldn't bolt pulling a canal boat, and the biters and kickers couldn't find anyone to bite or kick on the tow path, so they soon quietened down." 

 

So perhaps when times got harder and carriers were having to buy second-rate horses, there might have been enough instances of badly-behaved, inexperienced, horses falling in to justify the installation of steps.

[Pluto]

9 hours ago, Ronaldo47 said:

A couple of decades ago there was an article in (I think) Waterways World which included some words from an interview with an old bargee about his life on the canals around the turn of the 19th century when horses were still being used. From memory,  It was something like:

 

"We used to buy anything cheap, the bolters, biters, and kickers. But the bolters couldn't bolt pulling a canal boat, and the biters and kickers couldn't find anyone to bite or kick on the tow path, so they soon quietened down." 

 

So perhaps when times got harder and carriers were having to buy second-rate horses, there might have been enough instances of badly-behaved, inexperienced, horses falling in to justify the installation of steps.

The ramps were often provided in locations where other boats were tied up or the depth was not good near the sides. The horses fell in due to the boat they were towing hitting something which caused it to stop suddenly, resulting in the horse being pulled into the water.

 

Horses were often second-hand; for example in the 1920s Lancashire Canal Transport would buy old Manx tramway horses. They were used to pulling a steady load, and when no longer capable of pulling a tram, were still suitable for a couple of years work on the canal.

[Heartland]

"and the biters and kickers couldn't find anyone to bite or kick on the tow path, so they soon quietened down."

 

Was the Leeds & Liverpool Canal that quiet that these horses did not meet another boat, but then it might keep the toll collectors in doors!

[magnetman]

I thought they had weak links in the towing lines which would break before the horse was hauled into the water. 

 

Back in my canal magneteering days I used to often find old hand forged opened up chain links. Maybe these were from fenders but I always wondered if they might be horse related items. 

 

It seems wise to insert a safety link of some sort. 

One could work out the force needed to get the animal to fall over then design a fitting accordingly. 

[Pluto]

On 15/09/2023 at 12:48, magnetman said:

I thought they had weak links in the towing lines which would break before the horse was hauled into the water. 

 

Back in my canal magneteering days I used to often find old hand forged opened up chain links. Maybe these were from fenders but I always wondered if they might be horse related items. 

 

It seems wise to insert a safety link of some sort. 

One could work out the force needed to get the animal to fall over then design a fitting accordingly. 

A weak link might seem wise to you, but not to me. There are a wide number of reasons why the horse would fall in, none being similar in terms of force. It would depend upon the type of towpath material and general condition, and how close the horse was to the canal edge. George Cheetham told me that he had a horse which, as soon as you said gee-up, would move over onto the copings so that it would be unsafe for it to go faster He solved the problem by saying gee-up, and as the horse moved to the canal's edge he pushed it in. After recovery, the horse never went near the edge again. The other problem with a weak link is that when it broke, the horse would be likely to fall over as the strain was released. Much safer for a horse to fall in the water than onto the hard towpath which would be more likely to cause injury. It is important to realise that the horse was vital to earning a living, so the majority of boatmen took great care of them. No horse - no wages.