Gas install….

[Adam1991]

Hi, we’re struggling to find a gas safe engineer in the midlands (all busy or unavailable). After months of searching we’re not sure how to get it sorted. We’re tempted to at least do a part install (run pipe from appliances, buy the fittings and testers) and get it commissioned/ tested later. 
 

Could anyone advise us on the checklist of items we would require such as thickness of copper pipe and what the correct fittings would be for a basic install? We have a separate oven and hob. thanks! 

Edited August 14, 2023 by Adam Mc Gowan

[LadyG]

1 minute ago, Adam Mc Gowan said:

Hi, we’re struggling to find a gas safe engineer in the midlands (all busy or unavailable). After months of searching we’re not sure how to get it sorted. We’re tempted to at least do a part install (run pipe from appliances, buy the fittings and testers) and get it commissioned/ tested later. 
 

Could anyone advise us on the checklist of items we would require such as thickness of copper pipe and what the correct fittings would be for a basic install? We have a separate oven and hob. thanks! 

Have you got a standard narrowboat with a locker for the gas bottle. The locker must drain to the exterior.

A few photos of boat inside and out might help 

[Tony Brooks]

We will need the gas consumption of the appliances. Should be on the makers data plates.

[Adam1991]

I will try to find info on that next time I’m at the boat 👍

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, Adam Mc Gowan said:

I will try to find info on that next time I’m at the boat 👍

 

You may find them on the manufacturers' websites.

[Adam1991]

3 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Have you got a standard narrowboat with a locker for the gas bottle. The locker must drain to the exterior.

A few photos of boat inside and out might help 

Yes it’s a standard nb with the gas going in the front metal locker. I have some picture saved I’ll just find them now and post 👍 thanks 

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, Adam Mc Gowan said:

Hi, we’re struggling to find a gas safe engineer in the midlands (all busy or unavailable). After months of searching we’re not sure how to get it sorted. We’re tempted to at least do a part install (run pipe from appliances, buy the fittings and testers) and get it commissioned/ tested later. 
 

Could anyone advise us on the checklist of items we would require such as thickness of copper pipe and what the correct fittings would be for a basic install? We have a separate oven and hob. thanks! 

Going through the BSS checklist section on gas will give you a pretty good idea. No unnecessary joins and compression fittings only, pipe supported at the appropriate intervals and protected through bulkheads. Entire run must remain visible for inspection. You need a test point and ideally an isolation valve for each appliance.

[Adam1991]

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

Have you got a standard narrowboat with a locker for the gas bottle. The locker must drain to the exterior.

A few photos of boat inside and out might help 

 

Those are the images of the outside locker, the connections and the bulkhead it needs to pass through 👍

[nicknorman]

It’s a bit difficult to see what you are planning. The hatched compartment at the front doesn’t look like a purpose built gas locker. Does it have a flat bottom, external drains at the bottom and sufficient room for the planned size of cylinders? If so then fine, but from the photo it doesn’t look like it. Hopefully you realise that you can’t just put the cylinders on the well deck?

 

So there are presumably 2 bulkheads to go through, the one from gas locker to well deck and the one from well deck to cabin. Best to run the pip under the gunnel one side or the other (depending on which side the appliances will be).

[Adam1991]

1 minute ago, nicknorman said:

It’s a bit difficult to see what you are planning. The hatched compartment at the front doesn’t look like a purpose built gas locker. Does it have a flat bottom, external drains at the bottom and sufficient room for the planned size of cylinders? If so then fine, but from the photo it doesn’t look like it. Hopefully you realise that you can’t just put the cylinders on the well deck?

 

So there are presumably 2 bulkheads to go through, the one from gas locker to well deck and the one from well deck to cabin. Best to run the pip under the gunnel one side or the other (depending on which side the appliances will be).

Hi Nick, thanks. I don’t think they’re strictly for gas but we plan to drill out holes at the bottom to meet the specs. It’s also got a flat bottom and should be fine for 1 bottle. 
 

what thickness copper pipe it usually installed is it 10mm or 15mm?

[Jen-in-Wellies]

5 minutes ago, Adam Mc Gowan said:

what thickness copper pipe it usually installed is it 10mm or 15mm?

Depends on appliance consumption, pipe length, number of bends etc. Diameter calculated to get the pressure drop to below a certain value. Gas pipe is not water pipe. Differences in wall thickness and metal softness. Also imperial sizes might still be used?

[nicknorman]

9 minutes ago, Adam Mc Gowan said:

Hi Nick, thanks. I don’t think they’re strictly for gas but we plan to drill out holes at the bottom to meet the specs. It’s also got a flat bottom and should be fine for 1 bottle. 
 

what thickness copper pipe it usually installed is it 10mm or 15mm?

Normal practice seems to be to use imperial sizes, because the wall thickness is greater. You don’t just use “plumbing  pipe from B&Q”. Have a look at eg midland chandlers website, they sell a range of imperial sizes and the fittings. As to the thickness you need, it depends on the maximum consumption of the appliances (with everything turned on) and the length of the run from the regulator. I am not any sort of an expert in that calculation, but I have a feeling there is guidance in an appendix to the BSS?

Here’s a clue from the relevant ISO standard:

 

 

[Adam1991]

Hi Nick, thanks for sending a copy of the table of pipe diameters and the info. We’re still working on which bits of equipment we require. Minefield so far 😂

 

cheers ! 

[GUMPY]

A tip for traversing bulkheads:

Drill the bulkhead fittings out so the pipe passes straight through.

Fit them to the bulkheads as normal and then use one length of pipe for the whole run passing through the fittings.

Tighten fittings as normal, it gets rid of any possible leaks and no one will ever know.

[Adam1991]

Hi could I pick people’s brains again on this topic as I have a bit more info please. Sorry to keep an old thread going. 
 

The total heat output of our oven and hob combined is 3.& kw. 
 

The run of pipe is approx 7 metres. 
 

We will have approx 3 bends in total. 
 

Which thickness of copper pipe would be suitable? We’re thinking to get it by the metre from midland chandlers. 
 

cheers! 
 

 

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Adam Mc Gowan said:

The total heat output of our oven and hob combined is 3.& kw. 

 

I think you need to re-check that. A 4-ring hob will typically be between 8kW and 12kW. An oven typically 2kW to 3kW.

 

 

Nor is the heat output relevant. You need to be looking up the heat input. 

[Adam1991]

Ah ok thanks MTB. I may have misunderstood the hobs heat output. 
 

Will look again. Thanks! 

[nicknorman]

15 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I think you need to re-check that. A 4-ring hob will typically be between 8kW and 12kW. An oven typically 2kW to 3kW.

 

 

Nor is the heat output relevant. You need to be looking up the heat input. 

But surely with an oven and hob the heat input and heat output are the same? If not, where does the difference in input - output heat go? It’s not a boiler!

Edited September 15, 2023 by nicknorman

[MtB]

Just now, nicknorman said:

But surely with an oven and hob the heat input and heat output are the same? It’s not a boiler!

 

I think a leetle bit of heat leaks out from the oven and around the saucepans! 

 

But fundamentally I agree. I picked up on it as laymen commonly imagine the two will be the same on any appliance.

Besides, I've never seen a condensing oven or hob...

 

 

[Adam1991]

21 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I think a leetle bit of heat leaks out from the oven and around the saucepans! 

 

But fundamentally I agree. I picked up on it as laymen commonly imagine the two will be the same on any appliance.

Besides, I've never seen a condensing oven or hob...

 

 

Hi MTB, so does it not really make much difference which thickness of pipe is used? Or does the length of run required make a difference?

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, Adam Mc Gowan said:

Hi MTB, so does it not really make much difference which thickness of pipe is used? Or does the length of run required make a difference?

 

Well to fit in accordance with the regs then yes. Have a read of "BS EN ISO 10239: 2017 small craft LPG systems" for details on what is considered good practice. Also study "BS PD 54823:2016 Guidance for the design, commissioning and maintenance of LPG systems in small craft".

 

 

 

[Adam1991]

Thanks MTB, I’ll look these up and get reading. Cheers for your help ! 

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, Adam Mc Gowan said:

Hi MTB, so does it not really make much difference which thickness of pipe is used? Or does the length of run required make a difference?

Probably the appliance will mention the minimum input pressure. Probably doesn’t matter too much because low gas pressure at the input to a gas ring etc is indistinguishable from a safety point of view from having the hob ring turned down. You just lose maximum output when you forgot to put the dinner on and want everything to cook asap.

 

Well that said, there is one scenario to be concerned about: Christmas dinner - one ring is on lowest flame simmering the sprouts for the past hour or two. Then you whack on the oven at gas mark 7 to defrost the turkey, and put the other 3 rings on to warm the room because you let the fire go out. The sudden increase in gas demand causes the pressure to drop just enough to allow the low flame on the sprouts to blow out. Gas continues to come out though …

until  5 seconds later the flame failure device cuts the gas off.
 

Fooled you, you thought I was going to say “BOOM”! But now the sprouts are ruined as they have only been cooked for 2 hours.

 

In other words, too thin a pipe causes annoying interactions between appliances / different bits of the same appliance. And of course means the appliance isn’t installed in accordance with the installation instructions. Which is bad.

 

ps Tony1 has hijacked my account

Edited September 15, 2023 by nicknorman

[Adam1991]

46 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Probably the appliance will mention the minimum input pressure. Probably doesn’t matter too much because low gas pressure at the input to a gas ring etc is indistinguishable from a safety point of view from having the hob ring turned down. You just lose maximum output when you forgot to put the dinner on and want everything to cook asap.

 

Well that said, there is one scenario to be concerned about: Christmas dinner - one ring is on lowest flame simmering the sprouts for the past hour or two. Then you whack on the oven at gas mark 7 to defrost the turkey, and put the other 3 rings on to warm the room because you let the fire go out. The sudden increase in gas demand causes the pressure to drop just enough to allow the low flame on the sprouts to blow out. Gas continues to come out though …

until  5 seconds later the flame failure device cuts the gas off.
 

Fooled you, you thought I was going to say “BOOM”! But now the sprouts are ruined as they have only been cooked for 2 hours.

 

In other words, too thin a pipe causes annoying interactions between appliances / different bits of the same appliance. And of course means the appliance isn’t installed in accordance with the installation instructions. Which is bad.

 

ps Tony1 has hijacked my account

😂😂

 

That puts it into perspective! Looks like we have more head scratching to do then. 
 

thanks 

[LadyG]

PS can I do anything about the hob rings on my 22 y.o. Caprice . New burners and new chrome grids are about £500!

The burners are all giving different flames, the tiny screws are tricky to remove, do I persevere and clean with wire brush to remedy,

Ty

PPS try the gas safe register to get a BSC Examiner who is ĺpg and boat. He my be able to come for BSC, and fit the thing, in one job, better deal for him.

Edited September 16, 2023 by LadyG