C&RT License Survey

[magnetman]

59 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Nobody is "having a go" at CCers, except perhaps in your head. 

 

As usual you didn't read the post you are commenting on. 

 

Its not in my head but as I already said it IS in other peoples heads. Why do you not read what people have written ??

[IanD]

12 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

As usual you didn't read the post you are commenting on. 

 

Its not in my head but as I already said it IS in other peoples heads. Why do you not read what people have written ??

Go on, where is this mythical horde of "CC-haters" on CWDF then?

 

Unless you mean people who dislike "CCers in name only" (CMers) who bend/break the rules about mooring and overstaying, there are plenty of them -- including me.

 

"Proper CCers" who actually cruise round the system instead of doing their best to stay in one place without paying -- love 'em, they keep the canals going.

 

But even they contribute less to the CART coffers than boaters with a home mooring, so -- even ignoring CARTs "CCers make much more use of the canals and cost us more" reasoning -- don't you think this is unfair?

Edited December 15, 2023 by IanD

[magnetman]

2 minutes ago, IanD said:

Go on, where is this mythical horde of "CC-haters" then?

 

Unless you mean people who dislike "CCers in name only" (CMers) who bend/break the rules about mooring and overstaying, there are plenty of them -- including me.

 

"Proper CCers" who actually cruise round the system instead of doing their best to stay in one place without paying -- love 'em, they keep the canals going.

 

But even they contribute less to the CART coffers than boaters with a home mooring, so -- even ignoring CARTs "CCers make much more use of the canals and cost us more" reasoning, don't you think this is unfair?

You need to read my post again as you obviously completely misunderstood it. 

 

 

1 hour ago, magnetman said:

Its odd that people think this is all about cc ers.

 

It isn't. People on boats over 7ft2 wide who have paid for home moorings are going to have a larger 'surcharge' applied than people with narrow boats who continuously cruise.

 

So the narrow boat, which can go everywhere, sees a lower increase in their yearly licence than the moored boat which doesn't move.

 

People need to stop being victims about this having a go at cc ers. Thats not what is happening.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think you might have made assumptions about my position without reading what I have written. 

 

Careful now! Down with this sort of thing. 

Edited December 15, 2023 by magnetman

[IanD]

I read that as a complaint about people having a go at CCers -- if that's not what you meant, it wasn't very clearly put... 😉

 

If you meant that CCers should stop complaining about being victimised then I completely agree.

 

The same applies to wideboat owners, for the same reason... 😉

[magnetman]

Yes thats why I underlined the bit in the last paragraph. Apologies if it seemed unclear. My post was also a reply to someone who was indicating their erroneous view that it was only cc ers who are being targeted with surcharges. 

This is not the case. A vessel over 7ft2 wide. which by definition is already on a broad canal, will have a larger surcharge than a cc ing narrow boat. 

 

But all we hear about is cc ers having their lives destroyed or being evicted or some such crap which is total nonsense. 

 

 

[Arthur Marshall]

1 hour ago, Colin Brendan said:

A lot of the comments on here are based on the idea that CCers are in the gravy and should be charged more. There are significant time costs when you cc - time when you might otherwise be working - so it's actually a lot more expensive than it seems. The big worry for ccers is that crt will make it too expensive by gradually increasing the surcharge until livelihoods become unlivable for current ccers and crt can price them out in favour of a more affluent client base, or expanded their private mooring programme across vacated towpath.

 

My big question is this - if ccing is such a cash-cow, how come the average ccer sticks it out for 1.5 years only? Obviously not such a great deal once you factor in the time costs I mention above.

That's another one who hasn't read the thread , or read it selectively. Of course there are costs when you CC, especially for the ones who actually do. Mind you, those are the ones who vacate the towpath regularly, anyway - I gather not the ones Colin is referring to.

Why should livelihoods become unviable for CCers? It's a lifestyle choice, to go cruising on a permanent basis and needs funding just as much as any other. It will always be a cheaper way to play on a boat than paying for a mooring , and you get the benefit of cruising all year round, which most of us moorers would love to do.

Of course, if you don't want to cruise, but just shuffle about a bit, bending the rules as far as you can and depending on an outmoded law put in place to benefit genuine cruisers, you could be in trouble, but that's what happens if too many people extract the urine.

.

 

[Colin Brendan]

7 hours ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

I get your point, it’s an interesting angle,

and something I’ve given thought to and have to say it’s not something I can really grumble about as I knew what I was letting myself in for. 

 

I tend to find a mooring when the balance has to swing more towards work than travel. 

 

yes, I’d like to know where that 1.5 figure comes from,

 

perhaps there are folk who move on in spring, enjoy the summer, hate the winter and have sold up by the following autumn. 😂

TBH the 1.5 is slightly anecdotal - it's from chatting to coal boats based on their books. But seems accurate from my experience. 3 years was the figure people used to bandy around - but even that suggests the sort of hardship that means most just go back to life on land.

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, Colin Brendan said:

TBH the 1.5 is slightly anecdotal - it's from chatting to coal boats based on their books. But seems accurate from my experience. 3 years was the figure people used to bandy around - but even that suggests the sort of hardship that means most just go back to life on land.

 

Maybe they only last a short time because they do not really want to be boaters, they just want a cheap floating flat, but when the realities of boating come home to roost they find they cannot hack it.

[Colin Brendan]

8 hours ago, MtB said:

 

A lot of posters seem to have this really odd idea that by CCing they are doing CRT favour, CRT should be grateful and have some sort of obligation to make sure CCing is financially viable. 

 

As you say, CRT wouldn't care one jot if all the CCers vanished. Or all boaters, even. CRT is a quango with no soul or conscience (just like all organisations). Its only interest is its own continued existence. 

A quango that's only interested in it's own existence regardless of the cost to anything else? Good point! What on earth an I complaining about!

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Maybe they only last a short time because they do not really want to be boaters, they just want a cheap floating flat, but when the realities of boating come home to roost they find they cannot hack it.

There are so many people who seem to know what "being a boater" is, and not many of them seem to agree. Although there is a particular breed of gammon that seems to group behind their shared characteristics and decide that they and only they are the be all and end all of all things boaty. Luckily they are all of a certain age, so that cabal can't last for ever!

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, Colin Brendan said:

A quango that's only interested in it's own existence regardless of the cost to anything else? Good point! What on earth an I complaining about!

 

I'm struggling to work that out. 

 

Or more accurately, why you are arguing on here. Do you really think anyone with any power to change things reads this? Why not lobby your MP instead? At least you then stand the ghost of a chance of being listened to.

 

 

[Colin Brendan]

On 14/03/2023 at 16:46, IanD said:

 

Yes it probably could, but then you can guarantee an outcry from boaters protesting that CART were riding roughshod over the interests of boaters and not consulting them... 😉

 

This way, whatever the outcome (e.g. charging by area, 100% CC surcharge -- or 50% discount for a home mooring, which amounts to the same thing but switches the burden of proof around) CART can say "But we asked boaters, and 80% of them (my guesstimate given the numbers of each) said this is what we should do".

 

That will make it much more difficult for the 20% (wideboats, CCers, NBTA members...) to claim "we're being persecuted", when they were simply outvoted 4:1 by their no-longer-fellow-boaters... 😞

 

It's human nature that given a choice most people will vote for whatever they think is best for them and their family. The only way to win is to make sure you're not in a minority that gets outvoted... 😉

Funnily enough this doesn't apply to crts survey about license fees. Despite a vast majority of hmers, 60% of people voted for options that did not include a ccer surcharge. Honestly, take a closelook at the figures - it will restore your faith in humanity 

On 14/03/2023 at 16:51, MtB said:

 

 

I never notice the EA running consultations. They decide what needs to be done, and do it. None of this pandering to whining boaters for them. 

 

 

Isn't Autocracy a wonderful thing when the autocrat is "your man". Often not such a good thing in hindsight though - the historians tend not to like them!

[MtB]

10 minutes ago, Colin Brendan said:

 

Isn't Autocracy a wonderful thing when the autocrat is "your man". Often not such a good thing in hindsight though - the historians tend not to like them!

 

Get a grip, its just a bunch of rivers they rule over, not a nation!!

 

But my comment was just an observation about the way the world works. You seem on the verge of busting a blood vessel over trivia like boat license fees! Nobody needs to own a boat.

 

 

[Colin Brendan]

9 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Regarding your big question, what is the source of your data that CCers only last an average of 1.5 years?

 

But I think the main point is that CRT are not interested in whether living as a CCer is a ”great deal” vs living ashore. They are only interested in balancing their books and getting a fair income for services and maintenance costs generated. Remember that most marina based boats end up paying CRT far more than a CCer even with the surcharge. And the other point is that lots of CCing boats do not have people living aboard, they are simply storing their boats on the towpath when not in use because it is cheaper than paying for a mooring.

Ah! Apologies - i didnt realise that home moorings were a philanthropic gesture to support the canals! There I was thinking that home moorings were something that people fight each other for tooth and nail on a free market, and that was why they were so expensive! Now that I know that those bidding wars are an act of generosity by altruistic canal lovers I will have more respect 🙏 ! 

 

In fact, I would love to join the ranks of such altruism, but sadly (and as confirmed by CRT) there seems to be a stark lack of home moorings, so I can't! 

Who's next!

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

7 minutes ago, MtB said:

Nobody needs to own a boat.

…or a house, 

or several boats and even more houses,

yet somebodies do,

 

just an observation how some …

 

[Colin Brendan]

19 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Get a grip, its just a bunch of rivers they rule over, not a nation!!

 

But my comment was just an observation about the way the world works. You seem on the verge of busting a blood vessel over trivia like boat license fees! Nobody needs to own a boat.

 

 

How very sage of you. Yes, I totally agree - in the Grand scheme of existence and the cosmos a lever that can ultimately be used to make peoples livelihoods unlivable is entirely meaningless. In fact the entirety of humanity, and our planet itself is meaningless. A mere speck in the enormity of existence. I shall now relinqish myself to nirvana (not the band btw)

Edited December 15, 2023 by Colin Brendan

[IanD]

33 minutes ago, Colin Brendan said:

Funnily enough this doesn't apply to crts survey about license fees. Despite a vast majority of hmers, 60% of people voted for options that did not include a ccer surcharge. Honestly, take a closelook at the figures - it will restore your faith in humanity 

Isn't Autocracy a wonderful thing when the autocrat is "your man". Often not such a good thing in hindsight though - the historians tend not to like them!

 

That's true, but as CART admitted beforehand the survey was to try and find the least unacceptable way to increase license fees, since it's obvious that most people don't want to pay more. The percentage voting for each option was as follows:

1. Flat fee increase -- 14%

2. CC surcharge -- 40%

3. Area-based charging -- 22%

4. Increased widebeam surcharge -- 24%

It was also pointed out that home moorers -- about 75% of boaters -- were most strongly in favour of option 2 (49%), and CCers were almost entirely not (3%). Which shouldn't come as any surprise, should it?

 

So given these results, what would you have CART do to increase their license fee income other than what they actually did?

Edited December 15, 2023 by IanD

[Arthur Marshall]

8 minutes ago, Colin Brendan said:

Ah! Apologies - i didnt realise that home moorings were a philanthropic gesture to support the canals! There I was thinking that home moorings were something that people fight each other for tooth and nail on a free market, and that was why they were so expensive! Now that I know that those bidding wars are an act of generosity by altruistic canal lovers I will have more respect 🙏 ! 

 

In fact, I would love to join the ranks of such altruism, but sadly (and as confirmed by CRT) there seems to be a stark lack of home moorings, so I can't! 

Who's next!

Realy? Maybe you're just looking for moorings in the wrong place, like someone moaning they can't afford a house in Mayfair. I've never fought anyone for a mooring, nor paid more than £500 a year for one (plus CRT's mooring fee, obviously). And I've moved from one to another whenever I wanted to.

Probably a lot of genuine CCers, ie those who want to travel a bit, only want to do it for a few years, and then go and do something else. What they are, of course, are the ones the category was set up for, not for towpath dossers who have no interest in the canal system.

Not that there's anything wrong with squatting, which is basically what those ignoring the rules are doing, but it's no different from doing it on land. If you want the towpath for cheap housing, then campaign honestly for it and get CRT to rent it at a sensible rate - everyone would win. Except those who just want everything for free, maybe.

6 minutes ago, Colin Brendan said:

How very sage of you. Yes, I totally agree - in the Grand scheme of existence and the cosmos a lever that can ultimately be used to make peoples livelihoods unlivable is entirely meaningless. In fact the entirety of humanity, and our planet itself is meaningless. A mere speck in the enormity of existence. I shall now relinqish myself to nirvana (not the band btw)

That entire ludicrous argument could be made about every landlord who raises the rent, which is all of them. Or the Bank of England for raising your mortgage rate. Nonsense.

[MtB]

26 minutes ago, Colin Brendan said:

There I was thinking that home moorings were something that people fight each other for tooth and nail on a free market, and that was why they were so expensive!

 

Cobblers.

 

The CRT mooring I now rent was vacant for a year before I 'won' it, by bidding the minimum price and no-one else was interested in fighting me for it. 

 

 

[Colin Brendan]

3 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Realy? Maybe you're just looking for moorings in the wrong place, like someone moaning they can't afford a house in Mayfair. I've never fought anyone for a mooring, nor paid more than £500 a year for one (plus CRT's mooring fee, obviously). And I've moved from one to another whenever I wanted to.

Probably a lot of genuine CCers, ie those who want to travel a bit, only want to do it for a few years, and then go and do something else. What they are, of course, are the ones the category was set up for, not for towpath dossers who have no interest in the canal system.

Not that there's anything wrong with squatting, which is basically what those ignoring the rules are doing, but it's no different from doing it on land. If you want the towpath for cheap housing, then campaign honestly for it and get CRT to rent it at a sensible rate - everyone would win. Except those who just want everything for free, maybe.

I think you will find that as a matter of fact and more to the point, and if you really do think about it, the great and Almighty oracle themselves CRT often point to a distinct lack of home mooring availability. So there!

 

And I think you will find that as a matter of fact and more to the point, and if you really do think about it, that many of the 1.5 yearers do set out intending to cruise widely and broadly, and with great shackleton-like gusto, and the reason why they don't charter new territory is because they find the life too difficult. But more to the point, what on earth does this have to do with a surcharge for using the system more? Surely these slackers should be charged less than the true ccer explorers because they use the system less and therefore cost crt less. Isn't that why crt ar adding this surcharge?

[magnetman]

Too many idiots have turned up. 

 

What needs to happen is wherever you moor your boat results in you being obliged to pay a daily fee. 

 

I'm sure there arrrr ways of achieving this and there will be discounts for monthly or God Forbid annual payments. 

 

BACS. No prisoners taken every man jack walk the plank. 

Edited December 15, 2023 by magnetman
shocking error

[Colin Brendan]

5 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Cobblers.

 

The CRT mooring I now rent was vacant for a year before I 'won' it, by bidding the minimum price and no-one else was interested in fighting me for it. 

 

 

Where are you moored? Sounds like all the ccers round the country should forget their jobs etc and come stay with you.

2 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Too many idiots have turned up. 

 

What needs to happen is wherever you moor your boat results in you being obliged to pay a daily fee. 

 

I'm sure there are ways of achieving this and there will be discounts for monthly or God Forbid annual payments. 

 

BACS. No prisoners taken every man jack walk the plank. 

Absolutely. And then when they are paying about the same as a hmer then life will be fair!

 

...although, doesn't that mean they will be gunning for home moorings cos they may as well... and doesn't that meant that'll put up the price of your mooring eventually because it affects the market rental value... and then those cheapskate ccers will still not be paying enough! So you'll have to demand crt put their charges up! Then they'll pay the same as you! And that will be fair!

 

...although, doesn't  that mean...

[magnetman]

14 minutes ago, Colin Brendan said:

...

 

It doesn't make any difference to me as an individual because I do not view these things at the level of an individual person. 

 

I'm not remotely interested in my own outcomes. 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 16, 2023 by magnetman
typo

[Colin Brendan]

9 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

It doesn't make any difference to me as an individual because I do not view these things at the level of an individual person. 

 

I'm not remotely interested in my own outcomes. 

 

 

 

 

OK. You've got me. I'm not sure if you're being serious or not.

 

'You cannot be serious!'

[magnetman]

I don't take positions based on my personal circumstances. 

 

At the end of the day (and the beginning) the canals system seems to be suffering a funding crisis. I feel that people who are utilising the canal system should be paying for it. 

I know it is difficult to sort it out but a pay as you go system would be best with regional charges to reflect the desirability of the area. 

This is nothing new in terms of Boating behaviour. Paying to moor a Boat is a pretty obvious way to deal with the demand issue. 

 

Edited December 16, 2023 by magnetman
capital

[Colin Brendan]

11 minutes ago, magnetman said:

I don't take positions based on my personal circumstances. 

 

At the end of the day (and the beginning) the canals system seems to be suffering a funding crisis. I feel that people who are utilising the canal system should be paying for it. 

I know it is difficult to sort it out but a pay as you go system would be best with regional charges to reflect the desirability of the area. 

This is nothing new in terms of Boating behaviour. Paying to moor a Boat is a pretty obvious way to deal with the demand issue. 

 

'I don't take positions based on personal circumstances' 😂 Boy oh boy have you been telling yourself some porkies! Its a sweet and lovely sentiment, but we all take positions based on personal circumstances, mate. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either fibbing to you or themselves.