Just removed 10 litres of diesel in my oil tank

[velvety]

Hello everyone! 

I have created my account as I am dealing with a frustrating situation with regards to my engine and haven't been able to get any proper advice. 

 

I live on a 1930s trad stern narrowboat, with an old lister petter engine that is built like a tank - it rarely breaks down and has been running a long times without encountering many issues. However recently this good streak has ended - I recently pumped out a large quantity of water that had been sat in the fuel filter. The other day I went to check the oil which showed up all the way to the top of the dipstick (overflowing, basically). The solution was black and watery. I proceeded to pump the contents out the oil tank to find about 10 litres worth of what looked like diesel mixed into the oil - resembled Guiness in colour and smelt of diesel. 

I got the RCR over to have a look and they took the boat for a spin, and said to remove any more diesel if it came back, and call him again if the boat breaks down. He said if I'm really worried to change the fuel pump as it could have got in through there.

This didn't exactly clear my conscience and I am wary that there must be a loose seal somewhere that needs replacing as diesel shouldn't be able to enter the oil. From what I can see online this is often through the fuel injector seal which can wear away. I'm also wondering if the water that was sat inside the tank may have rusted the engine from the inside, corroding a lot of the components so diesel could enter the oil tank. 

 

Had anyone else experienced this? Is it, as stated by the RCR engineer, not a problem? Or do I need to tackle the problem before the engine is permanently damaged? Confused. Please advise.

Edited February 5, 2023 by velvety

[MtB]

I think old Listers suffer from a cracked fuel pipe behind one of the covers on the side. This gobs fuel out which drains into the sump and over-fills it. 

 

Or something along those lines. 

 

 

Someone smarter than me will be along to explain properly I expect...

 

 

[Richard T]

Where abouts are you. The man for old Listers is Richard Powell who posts on here. This is his website https://www.mes-midlands.co.uk/

He is based at Kenilworth

[Tony Brooks]

Exactly which Lister engine. If it is one of the air cooled ones or if you can not see the injectors and injector pipes because they are inside the engine case, then this is a well known problem and it is so well known I am appalled that the RCR chap did not know abut it.

 

If it is one of these engines than it could be a number of things, cracked fuel pipes, loose fuel pipe unions, leaks from the injector pups bleed or element retaining screws and so on. Start by removing the rocker covers and running the engine while looking for leaks. If there are none there, then the side cover(s) needs to come off so you can look at the injector pumps and pipe work. Good luck.

 

As far as the dipstick being the culprit, I have never heard such arrant nonsense UNLESS it has a fuel leak spraying right onto, but if there was you would be asking about a bilge full of diesel and the smell.

 

Edited to add, this needs addressing sooner rater than later. If the crankcase fills up again and you get the engine hot, then it is perfectly possible for it to run away, running on fumes from the hot diesel in the crankcase. If it does, it may be impossible to stop until it goes bang with expensive results. You can keep draining the engine and refilling with new oil if it gets high, but that will become expensive.

 

Edited February 5, 2023 by Tony Brooks

[velvety]

Thanks for the link! Based on London but great that he has spare parts. Will look into this.

 

[velvety]

Thanks for the link! Based on London but great that he has spare parts. Will look into this.

I edited the post as I made a mistake - the CRC guy said if I was worried the fuel pump may need replacing, not the dipstick. This information was relied to me wrong by the person who was present during the CRC call-out. Called the engineer to clear it up. 

6 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Exactly which Lister engine. If it is one of the air cooled ones or if you can not see the injectors and injector pipes because they are inside the engine case, then this is a well known problem and it is so well known I am appalled that the RCR chap did not know abut it.

 

If it is one of these engines than it could be a number of things, cracked fuel pipes, loose fuel pipe unions, leaks from the injector pups bleed or element retaining screws and so on. Start by removing the rocker covers and running the engine while looking for leaks. If there are none there, then the side cover(s) needs to come off so you can look at the injector pumps and pipe work. Good luck.

 

As far as the dipstick being the culprit, I have never heard such arrant nonsense UNLESS it has a fuel leak spraying right onto, but if there was you would be asking about a bilge full of diesel and the smell.

 

 

Yes it is one of the air cooled lister engines. Thanks for the advice. Will have to try this out.

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, velvety said:

Thanks for the link! Based on London but great that he has spare parts. Will look into this.

I edited the post as I made a mistake - the CRC guy said if I was worried the fuel pump may need replacing, not the dipstick. This information was relied to me wrong by the person who was present during the CRC call-out. Called the engineer to clear it up. 

 

That makes more sense, but it is less likely on one of the engines I mentioned. The lift pump, that is. On those internal fuel leaks are far more likely, and you don't pay to just tighten a union, although you may need gaskets.

[magnetman]

It will be something like a Lister SR3 and as mentioned the fuel leaks behind a cover on the side of the engine. 

 

These engines were made for arduous outdoor applications so the protected fuel pipework is a good design in some ways but it does rely on regular maintenance and knowledge..

 

I had this problem on my first narrow boat which had a Lister SR2 in it. Eventually the oil breached the piston rings and the engine ran away like crazy and buried the whole area in smoke. I stopped it using the decomopressor levers on top of the engine. 

 

Get someone to have the sides off and check all the pipework. 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

2 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Get someone to have the sides off and check all the pipework. 

 

 

 

Not until you have had the rocker cover(s) off. That is easier as a first step and it is not unknown for the leak off pipe unions to work loose.

[velvety]

Something similar happened to me while moving before the oil change. The boat started accelerating like crazy and an unbelievable amount of white smoke came out the engine. It was difficult to stop it but managed to drive back to the towpath moving very slowly.

[MtB]

19 minutes ago, velvety said:

Yes it is one of the air cooled lister engines.

 

If you can't work out the actual model of Lister, can you post some photos please?

 

 

[magnetman]

1 minute ago, velvety said:

Something similar happened to me while moving before the oil change. The boat started accelerating like crazy and an unbelievable amount of white smoke came out the engine. It was difficult to stop it but managed to drive back to the towpath moving very slowly.

Yup. Runaway engine. 

 

Classic case of diesel leaking into the sump oil. There is a danger of seizing the engine up if you continue to run it on oil with diesel in it because the diesel thins the oil and kills it's lubricating properties. 

 

Having said that those engines will be still running when the world runs out of diesel because they are made to last. 

 

Noisy but very good units. 

[MtB]

1 minute ago, magnetman said:

Noisy but very good units. 

 

Until they run away and turn into mud weights, which I think the OP's is in serious danger of doing given the sump level is up to the top of the dipstick hole (I think he wrote).

[BEngo]

Start investigating by removing the rocker covers on top of the engine.  You should be able to see the injectors with two pipes.  One steel one and a brass or copper one.  Dry round the pipes with kitchen roll or bog roll and tie some more all round the unions.  Run the engine for a few minutes and see if you have any stains on the bog roll, one bit at a time.    If so you have found a leak.

 

Next remove the fuel injection  pump chamber cover on the side of the engine.  Go carefully as there is a gasket under this cover which you want to re use.  Inside the chamber are the fuel injection pumps, one per cylinder, linked near the bottom by a biggish pipe and at the top by a smaller pipe.  Dry everything out with kitchen towel or bog roll.  Wind some dry bog roll round all the pipe connections, including the steel ones that go out of the top of the pumps.  Start the engine and let it tick over for 5 or 10 minutes, unless you see any massive leaks.  Then stop the engine and examine the bog roll one connection at a time. You may well see orange diesel stains on one or more pieces.  That will tell you which connection(s) are leaking.  

Usually it is one or more of  the small pipe ones, sometimes it  is the small pipe itself.  

 

If it is not the fuel injection pumps and pipes leaking the next thing to investigate is the lift pump.

Turn the main fuel tap off.  Remove the single screw in the top centre of the fuel pump and take the top off.  Be gentle, there is a seal under the lid which you do not want to damage.  You should them be able to see the rubber diaphragm.  Examine this for splits and pin holes.. If you find any they are where the leak is.

 

Refit the lid and turn the fuel tap on again.  Check for leaks from the lid.

 

Once you have found the leak  come back for further advice.

 

N

 

Edited February 5, 2023 by BEngo
Add top end investigate.

[magnetman]

The one I had (SR2) ran away twice and almost seized itself because I was trying to get on with the journey. As far as I know it is still running 28 yars later. 

 

They can deal with an awful lot of abuse. 

[Tony Brooks]

Ignore what I advised. follow the other advice and after contorting yourself to get good eyelines into the side chamber find that the leak was at the top all the time. It is not what has to be done, but the most expedite order in which to do it.

[magnetman]

Beer can help with this sort of issue. If it is a nice sunny afternoon (it is) get a beer and sit on something comfortable and see if that resolves the problem. 

 

It might be quite effective. 

[BEngo]

4 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Ignore what I advised. follow the other advice and after contorting yourself to get good eyelines into the side chamber find that the leak was at the top all the time. It is not what has to be done, but the most expedite order in which to do it.

I have edited my post.  Tony is right to suggest starting at the top as that is the easiest, but do both the top and side chamber regardless of whether you find leaks at the top.  Only go to the fuel pump if you find there are no leaks in the fuel pump and injector pipes.

 

N

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, BEngo said:

I have edited my post.  Tony is right to suggest starting at the top as that is the easiest, but do both the top and side chamber regardless of whether you find leaks at the top.  Only go to the fuel pump if you find there are no leaks in the fuel pump and injector pipes.

 

N

 

Thanks, FWIW, when I was working on the SL4s they were all in wide beam river cruisers so it was easy to get right down beside the engine, but I am sure it would be more difficult in a narrowboat. Unless it turns out to by a loose leak off pipe union on the injectors, the side plate will have to come off anyway. If it is that union, I don't see why it would be necessary to go any further than just keeping an eye on the level for a few weeks. If the leak off pipe has split or been rubbed through by a push rod, then on a non-self bleeding engine it should be replaceable from the top. If it is a self bleeding engine, then the side cover will have to come off as well.

[velvety]

Hi guys, for reference this a photo of the engine. Any idea which air cooled Lister Petter this one is? Can't find a code anywhere that would suggest which one it is. 

 

Since I change the oil I have moved the boat and ran the engine on a few occasions. I checked the dipstick to find in a week it has already filled up to the hilt of the dipstick again. 

Also to add a message from the engineer that I have contacted: 

 

"From the engineer : 

Ok I understand now my suspicions were that the diesel in the oil was getting there because of a damaged diaphragm in the lift pump.. on the listers there is also pipework carrying diesel under the two covers on the top of the engine and this can also be a point where there could be a leak which is why I told the lady who was on the boat to monitor it and let us know if there was a recurrence of the problem...but is normally the lift pump. The job is not just changing the lift pump because of the age of the engine it can mean changing some of the pipework that goes to the pump as well as the pump as they now use an updated pump and the fuel lines enter and exit it from different angles , also engine oil has to be removed and engine flushed , oil and oil filter changed as well .."

 

I am reluctant to use him again as he was a bit useless last time so wondering if this advice is sensible? He has quoted £500 for the repair so want to make sure I am making the correct decision.

[Arthur Marshall]

On my SR2 it's happened three times so far and every time it's been a split in the leakoff under the rocker covers. Many other causes have been suggested, but it's always just that and an easy repair. I now carry a spare leak off pipe!

Last time just after a repair it was because the guy doing it had left the ouoes where the rocker wotsit rubbed against it and wore a hole in it.

[alan_fincher]

Some confusions in this thread, as despite it being described as Lister Petter from the outset, virtually everything that followed assumed air-cooled Lister, (without the "Petter").

The picture eventually posted though shows a more modern engine than things like the SL, SR and ST series Listers, and I'm thinking it probably is indeed a Lister Petter.  I'm afraid I'm not clever enough to know which one, though.  It would be helpful to have a photo of the manufacturer's data plate of this engine.  Provided we can read it, we would then know what you are dealing with.

Edited February 18, 2023 by alan_fincher
Typo

[Arthur Marshall]

17 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

Some confusions in this thread, as despite it being described as Lister Petter from the outset, virtually everything that followed assumed air-cooled Lister, (without the "Petter").

The picture eventually posted though shows a more modern engine than things like the SL, SR and ST series Listers, and I'm thinking it probably is indeed a Lister Petter.  I'm afraid I'm not clever enough to know which one, though.  It would be helpful to have a photo of the manufacturer's data plate of this engine.  Provided we can read it, we would then know what you are dealing with.

You can see the engine plate says Lister Petter. Presumably there's more info on it, like a number.

[velvety]

This is an air cooled Lister Petter diesel engine. Unfortunately all the numbers have been rubbed off and it impossible to discern anything from the number plate.

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, alan_fincher said:

Some confusions in this thread, as despite it being described as Lister Petter from the outset, virtually everything that followed assumed air-cooled Lister, (without the "Petter").

The picture eventually posted though shows a more modern engine than things like the SL, SR and ST series Listers, and I'm thinking it probably is indeed a Lister Petter.  I'm afraid I'm not clever enough to know which one, though.  It would be helpful to have a photo of the manufacturer's data plate of this engine.  Provided we can read it, we would then know what you are dealing with.

 

I think that it still has internal fuel pipes even if it is not one of those you list, so the OP needs to take the rocker covers off and confirm.