Lister petter Lpws3 exhaust spitting/ leak

[Peugeot 106]

19 minutes ago, Steve56 said:

Can't really explain that. There does seem to be a lot of contradictions over the years and also over different publications of the manuals

Glad to hear that from a Lister engineer. Makes me feel not quite so daft. I would suggest that there seem to be rather more things that can go wrong with these engines than most destined for the leisure market. Many "Marine Engineers" who would be competent with a Beta, Volvo, Yanmar etc seem to be to be blind to the idiosycrancies of the Alphas.

Maybe it would be useful for you with your experience to start a thread Pros and Cons of Alpha Engines and we could all add our known "Dire Warnings" ? It could be very useful

Thanks for your contibution

[Alan de Enfield]

18 minutes ago, Steve56 said:

Can't really explain that. There does seem to be a lot of contradictions over the years and also over different publications of the manuals. I am just giving an opinion of how things were when I was employed first as an R&D engineer and then service engineer with the company. That was back in the day when Lister Petter owned the company and when most of the engines we are talking about were manufactured. Since then the company has had many owners,  with most parts being made abroad so really not in a position to talk about these latterly built engines.

 

 

Ok, thanks for your input.

 

My LPWS4 managed over 10,000+ hours on API-CF oil (and was still going strong and leak free when I sold it) It was a Welton hire boat before we had it and we just carried on with what they had used.

My oil changes were about every 4-6 weeks (100 hours) as  we tended to cruise for around 8 hours every 2 or 3 days, or, maybe 4 hours per day depending on what 'mood' we were in.

No where to go and in no hurry to get there we'd come out of the Marina 'around April time' and back to the Marina around October / November.

 

It was certainly he best, cleanest and most reliable engine of any of the 18 boats we have had.

 

I bought a complete marinised LPWS4 engine for spares, figuring that nowhere on the system is more than a few hours away from home (by car) so one of the kids could take a part off and bring it to us - far better than waiting for some mechanic to order one and wait for days. The 'spare engine' is still sat in my container and is still 100% complete, along with an unused, factory refurbished, PRM150 gearbox.

 

You made a good engine !.

[Peugeot 106]

4 minutes ago, Tgno3 said:

This is the oil I have been advised to get which says it’s performance levels are API CG-4/ CF-4/SJ/SL

 
the oil currently in the engine already is 10w/40 API-CC/SF

 

thoughts? Considering I am using the engine to charge batteries/ heat calorifier every other day  

(Fyi have plenty of solar) 

 

 

 

My Premier oil is the same and recommended by all the people I trust. Not cheap though!

[Tony Brooks]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Ok, thanks for your input.

 

My LPWS4 managed over 10,000+ hours on API-CF oil (and was still going strong and leak free when I sold it) It was a Welton hire boat before we had it and we just carried on with what they had used.

 

As it was ex hire you can be almost certain that it had been well (or badly) run in, and it seems the higher spec oils MIGHT cause glazing during the running in period.  I am sure it is your assiduous oil & filter changing that has contributed to being trouble free.

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, Tgno3 said:

This is the oil I have been advised to get which says it’s performance levels are API CG-4/ CF-4/SJ/SL

 

This is the discussion we have been having  - the above is the oil the manual says to use. (The SJ and SL are for petrol engines - the CF is for diesel engines - its a dual purpose oil) 

 

But this is what Steve suggests using :

 

6 minutes ago, Tgno3 said:

the oil currently in the engine already is 10w/40 API-CC

 

 

[Peugeot 106]

2 hours ago, Steve56 said:

The 3 cylinder engine suffered badly with vibration issues. The mod you show in your photos was something I came up with when working as an R & D engineer at Lister Petter. It did make an improvement to the way the engine ran.

Hi Steve. My LPWS2 has knackered its mountings in 800 hours. Am I right in saying that the 2 cylinder is worse than the 3 cylinder for vibration please. I could probably fit bearers similar to those you designed?

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

 

This is the discussion we have been having  - the above is the oil the manual says to use. (The SJ and SL are for petrol engines - the CF is for diesel engines - its a dual purpose oil) 

 

But this is what Steve suggests using :

 

 

 

 

Which will also have an S? rating on the can for petrol engines, we just ignore any rating beginning with S - unless we have a petrol engine and then we would ignore any rating beginning with C

 

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Which will also have an S? rating on the can for petrol engines, we just ignore any rating beginning with S - unless we have a petrol engine and then we would ignore any rating beginning with C

 

 

That is what I was explaining to Tgno.

[Tony Brooks]

12 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

That is what I was explaining to Tgno.

 

Just trying to make it clearer to ensure he totally ignored any S spec he sees.

[Steve56]

2 hours ago, Peugeot 106 said:

Hi Steve. My LPWS2 has knackered its mountings in 800 hours. Am I right in saying that the 2 cylinder is worse than the 3 cylinder for vibration please. I could probably fit bearers similar to those you designed?

The 3 cylinder engine was the worst one for vibration issues. The modified engine bearers were only ever available for that model. The 2&4 cylinder models just stuck with the standard feet.

[Steve56]

It always seems to get a good debate going when oils are mentioned. If I was running an Alpha engine (except the turbo model) in a boat this is the oil I would be using. 

[Peugeot 106]

50 minutes ago, Steve56 said:

The 3 cylinder engine was the worst one for vibration issues. The modified engine bearers were only ever available for that model. The 2&4 cylinder models just stuck with the standard feet.

Thank you for that I was worried at a previous posters comments re engine mounts. I assume that your comments may be more from practical experience

The problem is that -- as you say -- there are many modes of resonance as well as the obvious ones.

 

If you want to get technical, a long heavy object like an engine/gearbox suspended on four feet has a potential problem if the mass/stiffness ratio (resonant frequency) is different for the front and rear feet, due to the way the impedance of the resonant circuits change with frequency -- in electrical terms, they're inductive below resonance and capacitive above it. At a point in between the two resonant frequencies (e.g. front and rear feet) these reactances cancel out, and you can get a nasty torsional resonance where the front of the engine swings one way and the rear the other -- which means the tail of the gearbox waggles from side to side or up and down. Needless to say, this is A Bad Thing.

 

This is *especially* bad for a 3-cylinder engine which is statically balanced but torsionally imbalanced, so tends to waggle like this anyway rather than bounce up and down or from side to side -- 4-cyl are better for this.

 

A 2-cylinder engine with the cranks 180 degrees apart (like the LPWS2) has an even bigger problem than 3-cyl since the rocking moment is larger.

 

Whether this is a problem in real life depends on a lot of things including how far apart the feet are and what the mass on each is, but suffice it to say that there can be very good reasons for having different stiffness feet at the two ends... 😉

Edited August 30, 2022 by IanD

 

[Ray T]

2 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

 

"Snip"

Whether this is a problem in real life depends on a lot of things including how far apart the feet are and what the mass on each is, but suffice it to say that there can be very good reasons for having different stiffness feet at the two ends... 😉

Edited August 30, 2022 by IanD

 

 

Which is what we have.

Photo 1 stern end mount.

Photo 2 forrard end mount.

 

[Peugeot 106]

1 minute ago, Ray T said:

 

Which is what we have.

Photo 1 stern end mount.

Photo 2 forrard end mount.

 

I'm not quibbling the different sizes of the mounts. Just the comment that the 2 cylinder (mine) will vibrate more than your 3 cylinder. 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Peugeot 106 said:

Thank you for that I was worried at a previous posters comments re engine mounts. I assume that your comments may be more from practical experience

The problem is that -- as you say -- there are many modes of resonance as well as the obvious ones.

 

If you want to get technical, a long heavy object like an engine/gearbox suspended on four feet has a potential problem if the mass/stiffness ratio (resonant frequency) is different for the front and rear feet, due to the way the impedance of the resonant circuits change with frequency -- in electrical terms, they're inductive below resonance and capacitive above it. At a point in between the two resonant frequencies (e.g. front and rear feet) these reactances cancel out, and you can get a nasty torsional resonance where the front of the engine swings one way and the rear the other -- which means the tail of the gearbox waggles from side to side or up and down. Needless to say, this is A Bad Thing.

 

This is *especially* bad for a 3-cylinder engine which is statically balanced but torsionally imbalanced, so tends to waggle like this anyway rather than bounce up and down or from side to side -- 4-cyl are better for this.

 

A 2-cylinder engine with the cranks 180 degrees apart (like the LPWS2) has an even bigger problem than 3-cyl since the rocking moment is larger.

 

Whether this is a problem in real life depends on a lot of things including how far apart the feet are and what the mass on each is, but suffice it to say that there can be very good reasons for having different stiffness feet at the two ends... 😉

Edited August 30, 2022 by IanD

 

 

 

At a tangent - it is not just boat engines that can shake themselves to pieces.

 

As a supplier to Peugeot, including their Ryton (Coventry) plant I was in almost daily contact with the head of 'problem solving' to develop and supply products to correct and resolve issues that developed in the 'real world' that were never considered when making CAD designs.

 

One issue that was easily resolved with a bit of lateral thinking was on the 405 1.9 Diesel engine.

 

In the real world there was an enormous problems with vibration and actual shaking of the engine - the lead engineer had a brain storming session which resulted in a suggestion that they could use a solution that hotpoint had used on their washing machines,. 

 

A big lump of concrete was bolted onto the side of the engine - a bit of playing around with differing weights and locations and eventually the 'right size, right shape and right location' was found and every Peugeot 405 1.9 diesel left the factory with a lump of concete bolted to the engine.

[Peugeot 106]

14 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

At a tangent - it is not just boat engines that can shake themselves to pieces.

 

As a supplier to Peugeot, including their Ryton (Coventry) plant I was in almost daily contact with the head of 'problem solving' to develop and supply products to correct and resolve issues that developed in the 'real world' that were never considered when making CAD designs.

 

One issue that was easily resolved with a bit of lateral thinking was on the 405 1.9 Diesel engine.

 

In the real world there was an enormous problems with vibration and actual shaking of the engine - the lead engineer had a brain storming session which resulted in a suggestion that they could use a solution that hotpoint had used on their washing machines,. 

 

A big lump of concrete was bolted onto the side of the engine - a bit of playing around with differing weights and locations and eventually the 'right size, right shape and right location' was found and every Peugeot 405 1.9 diesel left the factory with a lump of concete bolted to the engine.

And I spent considerable time at Renault developing carbon fibre laminate boot lids rather than glass fibre laminates. I can’t remember the fuel saving they claimed per 500gms weight saving but it was incredibly important. Weight saving was king Not sure (well I have a good idea) what they would have thought of incorporating concrete in their cars! Interesting.

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

54 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

And I spent considerable time at Renault developing carbon fibre laminate boot lids rather than glass fibre laminates. I can’t remember the fuel saving they claimed per 500gms weight saving but it was incredibly important. Weight saving was king Not sure (well I have a good idea) what they would have thought of incorporating concrete in their cars! Interesting.

 

 

 

 

I was working with Ford and co-ordinating the Engineering HQ in Dearborn (USA) with the UK design and development at Dunton (Essex) and Ford Purchasing in Valencia (Spain) when they reduced their body panel thickness from 0,8mm to 0,6mm - that saved 1000's of tons of steel per annum.

 

The buyer in Spain was a guy called Jesus Gallego - the first time I called on him I asked for 'Jesus' (when the correct Spanish pronunciation is "Hey-zues") much hilarity and embarrassment followed.

 

0.6mm body thickness and Narrowboaters get the jitters if the get a 6mm reading.

[TheBiscuits]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

0.6mm body thickness and Narrowboaters get the jitters if the get a 6mm reading.

 

That's because we have prior experience of Ford bodywork ...

[Tgno3]

Hi,

RCR came out, said it’s the head gasket.

Water is making its way through the oil way and the cylinder, as it’s burning oil and oil is slowly going down consistently. AND or cylinder valves rings/ injector pumps are failing (I think that’s the right terminology he said)

 

Ruled out exhaust manifold gasket as the coolant isn’t going down fast enough/ would be creating lots of steam in engine bay and said the overflowing maybbe the reason why water is making it’s way into exhaust.

 

Said if definitely not be the head gasket it’s the valves but would be advisable (which I will do) to replace the head, as it’s off anyway so might as well.

In mean time until I get it seen to, said to keep an eye on oil and water, check oil 30mins-1hr after use and don’t rev too high. Any other advice let me know, thankyou for all the previous help and advice 

 

T

 

Edited January 4, 2023 by Tgno3

[Alan de Enfield]

54 minutes ago, Tgno3 said:

RCR came out, said it’s the head gasket.

 

 

54 minutes ago, Tgno3 said:

Said if definitely not be the head gasket it’s the valves

 

 

So its definitely the head gasket, but if its not, then its definitely the valves, and if not them its ................................

 

Sounds about par for the course from RCR.

[Tony Brooks]

47 minutes ago, Tgno3 said:

Ruled out exhaust manifold gasket as the coolant isn’t going down fast enough/ would be creating lots of steam in engine bay and said the overflowing would be the reason why water is making its way into exhaust. 

(which has been mentioned as above on thread).

 

Er - me thinks someone did not fully understand what was said about that gasket. If is at fault then the water leakage would be INTO the exhaust where the exhaust gasses would boil it to steam and eject it from the exhaust. Unless the coolant level fell to such a degree the engine overheated there is no way for steam to get into the engine bay.

 

The overflowing water making its way into the exhaust seems impossible to me. The exhaust is a sealed construction apart from the hull skin fitting.

 

 

50 minutes ago, Tgno3 said:

 

Said if definitely not be the head gasket it’s the valves but would be advisable (which I will do) to replace the head, as it’s off anyway so might as well.

 

Since when was one able to give an informed opinion that an engine needs a new head before it has been taken off, cleaned, measured and inspected? In view of reports I wonder if Key Diesels just happen to have a reworked one on the shelf. I could only advise that it MIGHT need a new head.

 

Ditto piston rings.

 

I have seen nothing to suggest the injection pump has any problems but do think the injectors should be tested while the head is off and rectified if required.

 

 

[Tgno3]

obviously I can’t take what he has told me for gospel. I’m not gona count my chickens yet until I have my own engineer come out as a 2nd opinion (well 3rd including everyone’s input as above) 

 

ofc rcr are gona try and cover their ass for any other problems

[Tgno3]

Apologies Tony if I haven’t quite understood exactly your point. I’m just relaying what the engineer told me. 

 

thanks for advice on the rest, i do really appreciate it! 
 

 

31 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Er - me thinks someone did not fully understand what was said about that gasket. If is at fault then the water leakage would be INTO the exhaust where the exhaust gasses would boil it to steam and eject it from the exhaust. Unless the coolant level fell to such a degree the engine overheated there is no way for steam to get into the engine bay.

 

The overflowing water making its way into the exhaust seems impossible to me. The exhaust is a sealed construction apart from the hull skin fitting.

 

 

Edited January 4, 2023 by Tgno3

[Steve56]

One thing to bear in mind when talking about oilways and head gaskets on the Alpha engines is that there are no oil ways in the block or head. 

[Tony Brooks]

34 minutes ago, Steve56 said:

One thing to bear in mind when talking about oilways and head gaskets on the Alpha engines is that there are no oil ways in the block or head. 

 

So unless it is oil down the valve guides or up past the pistons then the oil leaking past the head gasket is another highly questionable statement.