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Diesel prices

Nine of Hearts

By Nine of Hearts
in General Boating

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T.A Collaborator

T.A

Posted
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I was reading in november waterways world about equipment for making bio fuel. Would it be possible for groups of boaters to get together in the same area, one can store the equipment and everyone else chips in to the cost of the equipment say with the person storing not being charged. Then everyone can take upto 2500 litres per year before buying regular diesel?

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Eastern Engager

Eastern

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I wrote to John Healey the Government Minister concerned with the Red Diesel situation and his bottom line was that he isn't allowed, under the derogation principles, to charge a different rate of duty for the same product based on user groups.

 

However, I have just written to the Chancellor pointing out that red diesel is a "lower quality" product as compared to white diesel and that, under the derogation principles, he IS allowed to charge a different rate of duty for a lower quality product (cf: cetane rating and sulphur content).

 

If it were held that red diesel is a "lower quality" product under EU rules, then the Chancellor is only obliged, under those rules, to add 21p to the price and is not obliged to bring the rate of duty in line with white diesel.

 

I await a response.

 

Chris

 

Interesting point, Chris.

I expect those 'legitimate' users of red diesel (commercial shipping, farmers etc) will raise a howl of pain if the price of RD is raised?

Anyway, please keep us posted on your reply from Alastair!

 

Eastern

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JohnO Community Regular

JohnO

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Posted
I wrote to John Healey the Government Minister concerned with the Red Diesel situation and his bottom line was that he isn't allowed, under the derogation principles, to charge a different rate of duty for the same product based on user groups.

 

However, I have just written to the Chancellor pointing out that red diesel is a "lower quality" product as compared to white diesel and that, under the derogation principles, he IS allowed to charge a different rate of duty for a lower quality product (cf: cetane rating and sulphur content).

 

If it were held that red diesel is a "lower quality" product under EU rules, then the Chancellor is only obliged, under those rules, to add 21p to the price and is not obliged to bring the rate of duty in line with white diesel.

 

I await a response.

 

Chris

 

Nice one Chris credit where due, sounds like a good plan to me. If you can pull that one off we may well have two Saint Christopher's

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jeb Collaborator

jeb

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And might I ask where you are located?

Hi Blackrose

Sorry couldnt resist it. I'm building my boat at a friends farm and had the engine fitted so filled the boat from his diesel tank. That is the price he would have paid per litre and I realise things are going to be much different once afloat.That said marinas would also get it for that sort of cost per litre and even cheaper if they have large holding tanks.

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moggyjo Proficient

moggyjo

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Interesting point, Chris.

I expect those 'legitimate' users of red diesel (commercial shipping, farmers etc) will raise a howl of pain if the price of RD is raised?

Anyway, please keep us posted on your reply from Alastair!

 

Eastern

I think contractors working on the canals will still be allowed to use red diesel

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Eastern Engager

Eastern

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We are ALL going to be allowed to continue to use red diesel - the duty will be recoverable (in whole or part) for commercial users.

 

Chris

 

And I hope, recoverable - or not even payable in the first instance- for pleasure boat users who have seperate tanks for non-propulsion use (such as electrical generation and heating).

 

BTW Chris, did you respond to EPD? I did (by email) and I've heard nothing - not even an acknowledgement.

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pearley Veteran

pearley

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Why don't we have a page on the forum listing diesel prices and dates so we know where to go. After all, there is nothing more galling than to to fill up then find the next yard is cheaper.

 

Just to start it off, I've just paid 54p litre at Caggys yard at Tipton.

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tomsk Experienced

tomsk

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Any word from your ol' mucker The Chancellor yet Chrissy Babes? I'm agog at your contacts within the highest levels of goverment. Have you ever met Peter Mandleperson and his little gay dog, Will you be my friend?

Edited by tomsk
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  • 3 weeks later...
chris w Veteran II

chris w

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Any word from your ol' mucker The Chancellor yet Chrissy Babes? I'm agog at your contacts within the highest levels of goverment. Have you ever met Peter Mandleperson and his little gay dog, Will you be my friend?

 

Oh ye of little faith. Have had a response back from Hon Chancellor - well actually the Minister responsible if truth be told(3 weeks - got to be a record) but it's too late tonight to précis it now. So will do so some time tomorrow.

 

Chris

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GUMPY Veteran II

GUMPYDonate to Canal World

Posted
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Can Father Christmas bring me one of these?

http://biofuelssolutions.co.uk/docs/BFS%20-%20FuelPod.pdf

 

When I switched the car to Biodiesel I costed it all up and decided that at 80pL it was easier and cheaper to buy it ready made.

Just ordered some more yesterday and its still 80pL so feeling very smug here not only getting cheap diesel but recycling used veg oil as well so almost carbon neutral.

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chris w Veteran II

chris w

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Response received by me from the Treasury Dept from Angela Eagle MP who is the Government Minister now responsible for the ending of the derogation on red diesel.

 

It was a long reply but the nuts of it are as follows:

 

1. She confirms the Government's preferred option is for boaters to continue to be able to use red diesel but paying the full unrebated rate of duty for the fuel.

 

2. She confirms that the European Product Directive (EPD) does indeed allow for different rates of duty on similar products of different quality (eg: white diesel vs red diesel.)

 

3. She states that most red diesel is gas-oil to which a red dye has been added to help prevent illegal use.

 

4. She further states that the rate of duty for red diesel is currently set at 56.94 pence/litre when it is not rebated for non-road use and goes on to say that this rate is the rate that will apply from November 2008 if the preferred option is adopted. (Question to the Forum: Does anyone in the public-at-large currently use red diesel at the full rate??)

 

5. The unrebated rate for red diesel is therefore currently HIGHER than that for white diesel, the latter's rate being 50.33 pence/litre for both ULSD & SFD varieties (Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel & Sulphur-free Diesel). So, we shall end up paying MORE than the current cost of white diesel for an inferior product.

 

6. The Minister states that to reverse this position (ie: to have red diesel cheaper than, or equal in price to, white diesel) "would send out the wrong environmental signals".

 

7. She also states that while she agrees most red diesel is not ULSD nor SFD, in some remote areas to overcome logistical problems, red diesel is just white diesel laced with the red dye. So she contends that not all red diesel is of inferior quality.

 

8. She closed by saying that HMRC are currently reviewing the answers to the consultation which closed on 31/10/07. She writes, "The views expressed will help to inform the decisions we ultimately make to ensure the new regime presents the best solution for all concerned from November 2008."

 

Chris

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blackrose Veteran II

blackrose

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6. The Minister states that to reverse this position (ie: to have red diesel cheaper than, or equal in price to, white diesel) "would send out the wrong environmental signals".

 

Thanks for the update. I don't understand point 6.

 

Why, if red were the same price as white, would it be any worse for th environment?

 

Also does anyone know what the situation is for someone who can show that they have a separate tank for the purposes of heating? Will they be able to claim the tax back?

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chris w Veteran II

chris w

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Posted (edited)
Thanks for the update. I don't understand point 6.

 

Why, if red were the same price as white, would it be any worse for th environment?

 

Because red diesel is 2000ppm of sulphur whereas white diesel is 50ppm.

 

Chris

Edited by chris w
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onthecut Proficient

onthecut

Posted
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Goodness me --- they're so bright our 'leaders' it's frightening.

 

So --- if I have one tank and (perish the thought) I happen to have access to rebated red, they actually won't then have a clue whether I've stumped up or not, since the fuel is all the same ??!! Likewise, since you will legitmately be able to fill up with red in the Channel Islands (obviously depending on your craft) and then potter up some of our inland waters on the same fuel, there isn't going to be the same absolute offence there is for road vehicles of simply having it in the tank.

 

I'm afraid the only signals I would send out to this bunch would involve the use of one, or two adjacent fingers at most. Still, since by November next they will probably have mislaid the discs conatining the rules they thought they might use, let's wait and see.

 

Mike.

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