Battery Charging 2

[Maverick]

Didnt want to hijack Sarah's thread and this situation is different anyhow. I do not have shore power but am looking at the possibility of living aboard on a temp basis. Other than running the engine for 2-3 hrs per day or buying a £1000 quiet honda genny or solar panels are there any other options open to me for keeping my batts charged on a daily basis?

 

2 110s to run 240v tele and few lights is all I need.

 

If these are the only three options, I dont fancy running the engine 3 hrs a day if I can help it, so would solars charge 2 batts in a day or is the genny my best option?

[Ernie]

If it is only needed on a short term basis, I would go for an el cheapo generator and just not expect too many years out of it.

[onthecut]

Hi Maverick.

 

Just an off chance idea --- do you have a car which you are able to park adjacent ? If so, you could rig a second battery / batteries with a suitable split charger on the vehicle (assuming you use it regularly !) and simply plug in when you get back to the boat.

 

Mike.

[anhar]

Didnt want to hijack Sarah's thread and this situation is different anyhow. I do not have shore power but am looking at the possibility of living aboard on a temp basis. Other than running the engine for 2-3 hrs per day or buying a £1000 quiet honda genny or solar panels are there any other options open to me for keeping my batts charged on a daily basis?

 

2 110s to run 240v tele and few lights is all I need.

 

If these are the only three options, I dont fancy running the engine 3 hrs a day if I can help it, so would solars charge 2 batts in a day or is the genny my best option?

The only reliable option is the generator. The smaller Honda "suitcase", the EU10i which makes 900w doesn't cost £1,000, more like about £600. The next one up, the EU20i which does 1,600w costs around £900 but it is considerably heavier.

 

You can get cheap generators for a fraction of that, under £100, but they will be massively noisier and won't have the mains quality output of the Honda EU series.

 

Have a look at this site which is probably one of the cheapest and most well known for Honda:

 

http://www.hondagenerator.co.uk/pages/Honda_Portable.htm

 

regards

Steve

Edited November 6, 2007 by anhar

[Jason Day - Sheffield]

ditch the telly mate - buy a battery powered radio. Can't tell you how much better life will be, you'd have to try it to find out!

 

JD

[Guest]

ditch the telly mate - buy a battery powered radio. Can't tell you how much better life will be, you'd have to try it to find out!JD

Or one that you wind up.

Hi Maverick.Just an off chance idea --- do you have a car which you are able to park adjacent ? If so, you could rig a second battery / batteries with a suitable split charger on the vehicle (assuming you use it regularly !) and simply plug in when you get back to the boat.Mike.

Iv'e seen people do this before. One option is to make up some long jump leads (welding cable) and clamp 'em on the boat batteries, leaving the car at a fast idle. That's all cars are fit for really, 'orrible bloody things.

Edited November 6, 2007 by Guest

[charles123]

There must be lots of options, one is add a couple more big capacity batteries and change the alternator for a 200 amp one and upgrade intallation if needed for the biggr alternator, then run the engine for an hour per day which should be enough and still have change from £500

 

Charles

[Maverick]

Thanks for the suggestions guys. Think the genny is looking favourite but as I'm on a marina and not wanting to pee anyone off, think its goin have to be the small honda for around £600. Hadnt looked at the price of those for ages they were about £900 originally I think. Did buy a cheap £50 2 stroke from B&Q 12 months ago but returned it to em due to the noise levelsIs the 900 watts quoted a pretty good estimate for continuous power?Should more than do the job for wot I need. Got a cruiser stern with a cover over so hoping it will not emit too much noise from there. .

The only reliable option is the generator. The smaller Honda "suitcase", the EU10i which makes 900w doesn't cost £1,000, more like about £600. The next one up, the EU20i which does 1,600w costs around £900 but it is considerably heavier.You can get cheap generators for a fraction of that, under £100, but they will be massively noisier and won't have the mains quality output of the Honda EU series.Have a look at this site which is probably one of the cheapest and most well known for Honda:http://www.hondagenerator.co.uk/pages/Honda_Portable.htmregardsSteve

Thanks for the link to the honda site Steve. Has anyone had any dealings with these folk and are they ok?

[anhar]

...Is the 900 watts quoted a pretty good estimate for continuous power?...

Yes, in fact it is rated at 1,000w maximum. Here are further details from Honda UK's site.

 

http://www.honda.co.uk/energy/ProductDetai...?productIndex=0

 

Steve

[chris w]

There must be lots of options, one is add a couple more big capacity batteries and change the alternator for a 200 amp one and upgrade intallation if needed for the biggr alternator, then run the engine for an hour per day which should be enough and still have change from £500

 

Charles

 

Running the engine for one hour or even 3 hours per day will not be enough for a liveaboard. It may appear to be OK but it will be killing the batteries as they will not be getting a full charge in that time. You will probably be using close to 100AH per day and 3 hours will NOT put this back. Remember also that charging is only about 70% effcient so to replace 100AH needs a charge regime that will deliver around 150AH to replace the used capacity.

 

Additionally, an alternator will only deliver around 60% of its nominal current at narrowboat revs. So an 80A alternator will only give out around 50A max unless you are running the engine at extremely high revs. Further, it will only give out the 50A for a short while because, once the battery voltage starts to rise, the current will decrease. This is like filling a lock - it takes a disproportionately longer time to fill, the fuller it is.

 

I would advovcate the generator and using it to run a good multistage mains charger. You still won't do it in 3 hours though.

 

Chris

[David Schweizer]

Running the engine for one hour or even 3 hours per day will not be enough for a liveaboard. It may appear to be OK but it will be killing the batteries as they will not be getting a full charge in that time. You will probably be using close to 100AH per day and 3 hours will NOT put this back. Remember also that charging is only about 70% effcient so to replace 100AH needs a charge regime that will deliver around 150AH to replace the used capacity.

 

Additionally, an alternator will only deliver around 60% of its nominal current at narrowboat revs. So an 80A alternator will only give out around 50A max unless you are running the engine at extremely high revs. Further, it will only give out the 50A for a short while because, once the battery voltage starts to rise, the current will decrease. This is like filling a lock - it takes a disproportionately longer time to fill, the fuller it is.

 

I would advovcate the generator and using it to run a good multistage mains charger. You still won't do it in 3 hours though.

 

Chris

Could I ask for some clarification Chris. I have a 55amp alternator on my boat coupled with a Sterling Digital Alternator Regulator. When cruising, this regime seems to keep the batteries fully charged, however if we remain tied up for a day, the batteries need re-charging so I run the engine at a (very) fast tickover. The reading on the charge ammeter is usually about 50/55amps for the first half hour or so, and then gradually drops back to about 20/25 amps, where it remains for up to another half an hour or so (At this stage I can reduce the engine speed to fast tick over). Then it starts to tail off to a steady trickle of about 12amps, and over the next half an hour the rate usually falls back to almost nothing. These times are often shorter than those quoted if we have not used much power overnight.

 

Are you saying that the 50amp reading is not what the batteries are receiving, or am I managing to fully re-charge the batteries ? I have not had to top up the electrolyte in my batteries since I installed them three years ago, and when I return to the boat after a couple of weeks absence the Batteries are still reading well above 12 volts. To me this suggests that they are being fully charged, but I would welcome further advice.

 

For information I do not have normal Leisure batteries, but a pair of 6volt 230amp Ultra Deep Cycle batteries (disigned to run Golf Carts) The Alternator is a lucas A127 and the pulley ratio is 3 to 1 . A power audit suggest that we would normally use about 50/60 amps in a 24 hour period (or less if we don't watch the TV)

Edited November 7, 2007 by David Schweizer

[chris w]

Firstly, you're getting 50A out of a 55A alternator at just fast tickover due to the 3:1 pulley ratio instead of the more normal 2:1 ratio (envy!). However, that's great if you are getting that.

 

Can you clarify...... are you saying that once the current drops to say 20A or lower that speeding up or slowing the engine makes no difference to the current? This is important to know in judging whether the Alternator/Sterling combination are working at optimum effectiveness. If your batteries are wet lead-acid type, ensure your Sterling device is set to 14.8v and not 14.4v. This will also allow a significantly higher charging rate. If they are the sealed type leave it at 14.4v

 

The acid test (excuse the pun) of whether the batteries are charged is to measure the battery voltage with an accurate (better than +/- 0.5%) multimeter and if the battery voltage is at least 12.6 to 12.7v (for wet lead acid types) with all circuits switched OFF, say 24 hours after charging, then indeed the batteries are fully charged. Every 0.1v less than this is about a 10% reduction in charge. eg: if the batteries read 12.4v then they are about 70% charged. Hence the need for an accurate meter. A good one like this need not be expensive - £25 will get you a great accurate multimeter. £10 is unlikely to and the latter typically have an accuracy of 1-2%, which will give a meaninless reading when we are considering tenths of a volt.

 

Now to the power audit. If you are using say 50AH per night, then to replace this wil take around 75AH as charging is only 70% efficient. You state that you get 50A for 1/2 an hour and then 25A for another 1/2 hour and then some lower figure tailing off for the remainder of the time. So let's estimate that you are putting in around 50AH total. Due to charging efficiency, this will put about 35AH (70%) back into the batteries.

 

Since you believe you are using 50-60AH per night, either this latter figure is an overestimate or, and I would suspect this, the batteries are not getting a full charge. Measuring the terminal voltage will tell you but do leave them to rest for several hours because the improperly mixed acid and water after charging will give a false (high) reading. Also make sure there is no current drain - all systems OFF. If you can't wait that long before measuring, then switch on your tunnel light for 20-30 minutes which will help mix the acid and water quickly. It won't affect the reading as the AH's taken by the light in that time period will only be about 1.5AH.

 

Chris

Edited November 7, 2007 by chris w

[Maverick]

ditch the telly mate - buy a battery powered radio. Can't tell you how much better life will be, you'd have to try it to find out!

 

JD

 

Can you still get The Jimmy Clitheroe Show on em?

[David Schweizer]

Firstly, you're getting 50A out of a 55A alternator at just fast tickover due to the 3:1 pulley ratio instead of the more normal 2:1 ratio (envy!). However, that's great if you are getting that.

 

Can you clarify...... are you saying that once the current drops to say 20A or lower that speeding up or slowing the engine makes no difference to the current? This is important to know in judging whether the Alternator/Sterling combination are working at optimum effectiveness. If your batteries are wet lead-acid type, ensure your Sterling device is set to 14.8v and not 14.4v. This will also allow a significantly higher charging rate. If they are the sealed type leave it at 14.4v

 

The acid test (excuse the pun) of whether the batteries are charged is to measure the battery voltage with an accurate (better than +/- 0.5%) multimeter and if the battery voltage is at least 12.6 to 12.7v (for wet lead acid types) with all circuits switched OFF, say 24 hours after charging, then indeed the batteries are fully charged. Every 0.1v less than this is about a 10% reduction in charge. eg: if the batteries read 12.4v then they are about 70% charged. Hence the need for an accurate meter. A good one like this need not be expensive - £25 will get you a great accurate multimeter. £10 is unlikely to and the latter typically have an accuracy of 1-2%, which will give a meaninless reading when we are considering tenths of a volt.

 

Now to the power audit. If you are using say 50AH per night, then to replace this wil take around 75AH as charging is only 70% efficient. You state that you get 50A for 1/2 an hour and then 25A for another 1/2 hour and then some lower figure tailing off for the remainder of the time. So let's estimate that you are putting in around 50AH total. Due to charging efficiency, this will put about 35AH (70%) back into the batteries.

 

Since you believe you are using 50-60AH per night, either this latter figure is an overestimate or, and I would suspect this, the batteries are not getting a full charge. Measuring the terminal voltage will tell you but do leave them to rest for several hours because the improperly mixed acid and water after charging will give a false (high) reading. Also make sure there is no current drain - all systems OFF. If you can't wait that long before measuring, then switch on your tunnel light for 20-30 minutes which will help mix the acid and water quickly. It won't affect the reading as the AH's taken by the light in that time period will only be about 1.5AH.

 

Chris

God there's a lot there to clarify, but I will try.

 

The (very) fast tickover is probably a bit of an understatement about 1500 rpm would be more accurate.

 

When the charge rate drops to about 20 amps increasing the engine revs makes no difference, and reducing them back to tickover does reduce the ammeter reading very slightly, but the needle bounces so I keep the revs up a bit (Charles Sterling told me that this has something to do with Pulsing - a problem with A127 alternators, apparently)

 

The Sterling Alternator Regulator is set for 14.8 (lead acid batteries)

 

I have a high quality Panel Analogue Voltmeter fitted which I bought second hand and tested from our local Specialist Radio/Electronics shop (yes we still have one in Bath) and the reading after leaving the boat for several weeks is usually about 12.5 volts. (I have never checked it after 24 hours with nothin switched on)

 

The Power Audit is probably an over estimate. Normally I would run the engine in the morning to recover over night loss (30/40 amps) and then again in the evening before it gets dark.

 

One other point, the Half hour or so at 50 amps can sometimes be longer but is usually about normal, I do recall oe occassion when it stayed at 50 amops for nearly an hour after a longer period of not re-charging, but that was with my old batteries which were beginning to die.

 

Would rgular Hydrometer readings be worth doing, I never seem to find them very reliable, perhaps I need to get a new hydrometer.

Edited November 7, 2007 by David Schweizer

[Keeping Up]

David the pattern you describe is similar to my experience (although I use an Adverc regulator and conventional 12v leisure batteries) except that the times I observe are always at least three times as long as you are seeing. Admittedly our power audit shows our consumption to be more like 80-100 Amp-hours per day (Debbie loves to watch TV) but I am surprised that you can fully recharge so much more quickly.

 

One thing I have observed, is that when the charge level drops to a very low figure (just 5 or 10 amps) it makes a significant difference to keep the engine running for at least another hour. The amount of energy deliverd to the batteries may be small (less than 10 Ah, although of course any other power cinsumed during this charging period is effectively a freebie too) but I am guessing that maintaining the high terminal volage helps the battery to convert its surface charge into bulk charge or some such effect, because the benefit appears to far outweigh the small percentage of extra charge which I have delivered. Or maybe I'm imagining it?

 

I too envy your pulley setup. I have a 70 Amp alternator but I have to run at nearly twice my tickover speed (ie at 1600rpm) to get its full output. If I'm not cruising I usually choose to run at about 1400rpm where the engine is particularly quiet, and settle for 50 Amps

 

Allan

[Sir Nibble]

(Charles Sterling told me that this has something to do with Pulsing - a problem with A127 alternators, apparently)

Total, complete, utter rot! But then the same bloke told me that alternators are only single phase devices. A pulsing meter is most likely due to speed variations at tickover, failing that it's a regulator problem, who did you say made the regulator?

You're lucky too that 1500 rpm is a "fast tickover" for me it's a breaking wash.

Edited November 7, 2007 by snibble

[GUMPY]

When the charge rate drops to about 20 amps increasing the engine revs makes no difference, and reducing them back to tickover does reduce the ammeter reading very slightly, but the needle bounces so I keep the revs up a bit (Charles Sterling told me that this has something to do with Pulsing - a problem with A127 alternators, apparently)

 

The Sterling Alternator Regulator is set for 14.8 (lead acid batteries)

 

I assume its not one of the latest sterling boxes.

If its a blue one about 8 years old then I had a similar problem, What was happening was that the sterling box was switching into float mode then back into charge mode its causing the current to jump up and down. As the engine was only a 2cyl Kabota it also caused the engine revs to die and pick up a bit.

This only happened after about 3hrs boating when the engine was at or near tickover and the unit should have switched its self into float mode. Worth checking the LED just to see what its doing.

 

If its a yellow one ignore the above.

 

Julian

[David Schweizer]

Total, complete, utter rot! But then the same bloke told me that alternators are only single phase devices. A pulsing meter is most likely due to speed variations at tickover, failing that it's a regulator problem, who did you say made the regulator?You're lucky too that 1500 rpm is a "fast tickover" for me it's a breaking wash.

 

I know almost nothing about electronics so I can only repeat what others tell me, this ( as you already know) sometimes causes differences of opinion.

 

Well I suppose it could have been a faulty regulator (an earlier Sterling) but the ammeter needle was bouncing violently, backwards and forwards between zero and 50. whilst charging at quite high engine speeds (not tickover) I had recently upgraded to a 55amp A127 but his had not been happening with the original 35 amp alternator. We tried all the usual stuff, improving the size of wiring, reducing the lengths of wiring, all to no avail. Charles Sterling told me that this problem had been reported by other people but only with some A127 Alternators, and that he had not been able to reproduce the symptoms on the test bench, he said it was caused by pulsing.

 

Anyway to cut a long story short, he asked me to try out the new Advanced Digital Alternator controller(they were not on the market at the time) and it solved the problem. He let me keep the new controller and suggested I give the old one to a friend. I actually did that and he had no problems with it.

 

You clearly have a more traditional engine than the one in my boat, I have a BMC 1.5 which does not like ticking over at anything much less than 1100 rpm. It also has a larger crankshaft pulley and a reduced size Alternator pulley, recently opened out on the lathe to take a 13 mm belt rather than the O.E. 9.5mm belt.

 

I assume its not one of the latest sterling boxes.If its a blue one about 8 years old then I had a similar problem, What was happening was that the sterling box was switching into float mode then back into charge mode its causing the current to jump up and down. As the engine was only a 2cyl Kabota it also caused the engine revs to die and pick up a bit.This only happened after about 3hrs boating when the engine was at or near tickover and the unit should have switched its self into float mode. Worth checking the LED just to see what its doing.If its a yellow one ignore the above.Julian

 

I cannot rember what colour the old one was, but it was not yellow, I bought it in 2001. The replacement one (the Advanced Digitat Alternator controller) is blue but it was only introduced five years ago, so yours must have been the same as the first one I had.

Edited November 7, 2007 by David Schweizer

[Sir Nibble]

I know almost nothing about electronics so I can only repeat what others tell me, this ( as you already know) sometimes causes differences of opinion.

 

Well I suppose it could have been a faulty regulator (an earlier Sterling) but the ammeter needle was bouncing violently, backwards and forwards between zero and 50. whilst charging at quite high engine speeds (not tickover) I had recently upgraded to a 55amp A127 but his had not been happening with the original 35 amp alternator. We tried all the usual stuff, improving the size of wiring, reducing the lengths of wiring, all to no avail. Charles Sterling told me that this problem had been reported by other people but only with some A127 Alternators, and that he had not been able to reproduce the symptoms on the test bench, he said it was caused by pulsing.

 

Anyway to cut a long story short, he asked me to try out the new Advanced Digital Alternator controller(they were not on the market at the time) and it solved the problem. He let me keep the new controller and suggested I give the old one to a friend. I actually did that and he had no problems with it.

 

You clearly have a more traditional engine than the one in my boat, I have a BMC 1.5 which does not like ticking over at anything much less than 1100 rpm. It also has a larger crankshaft pulley and a reduced size Alternator pulley, recently opened out on the lathe to take a 13 mm belt rather than the O.E. 9.5mm belt.

Had a pulsing problem, changed the reg, problem went away, reg was the problem QED. Caused by pulsing? That's like saying illness is caused by being ill! Let you into a secret, paris rhone a13 series alternators have a stator interchangable with that from an A127, therefore the rotor geometry is the same, A13's don't pulse.

I speak from experience of tens of thousands of alternator rebuilds and I do take an interest in their design and make it my business to understand them.

I have a bmc 1.8.

[Tony Brooks]

Had a pulsing problem, changed the reg, problem went away, reg was the problem QED. Caused by pulsing? That's like saying illness is caused by being ill! Let you into a secret, paris rhone a13 series alternators have a stator interchangable with that from an A127, therefore the rotor geometry is the same, A13's don't pulse.

I speak from experience of tens of thousands of alternator rebuilds and I do take an interest in their design and make it my business to understand them.

I have a bmc 1.8.

 

 

I will add that with the AC series of aternators (external regulator) and no extra regulators we had bpast that after an intial high, bur=t syeady charge stated pulsing the moving iron ammeters almost from below zero to maximum and they woudl do this for hours. Ihave also seen other types of Lucas alternator and other makes do this.

 

I cann not explain why or how but cleaning all terminals (including the batteries), upgrading the wire to/from the ammeter (this is why I always now use a shunted ammeter) and sometimes uprating the main charging cable(sd) seesm to have improvennd things. I do not know sufficient about how capacitenmce or resistance in external cables would affect the regulators, but I suspect the problem is along those lines - somtimes a new/different batteerry stopped it as well.

 

Battery sensing or machine sensing did not seem to make any difference.

[magnetman]

When set to 900w output (they have two settings) the Honda EU10i is not at all quiet. The publicised noise level is at 1/4 load. Horrible generators imo, i used one for a while they are just too tinny for me, i'd go for the eu20 specially if wanting to use 900w regularly.

[Maverick]

The only reliable option is the generator. The smaller Honda "suitcase", the EU10i which makes 900w doesn't cost £1,000, more like about £600. The next one up, the EU20i which does 1,600w costs around £900 but it is considerably heavier.

 

You can get cheap generators for a fraction of that, under £100, but they will be massively noisier and won't have the mains quality output of the Honda EU series.

 

Have a look at this site which is probably one of the cheapest and most well known for Honda:

 

http://www.hondagenerator.co.uk/pages/Honda_Portable.htm

 

regards

Steve

 

Notice the advertising guff to this genny state inverter technology. how do the cheap jobbies from B&Q generate their 240v then? Obviously a big difference on price so guess they work differently do they?

[Guest]

Notice the advertising guff to this genny state inverter technology. how do the cheap jobbies from B&Q generate their 240v then? Obviously a big difference on price so guess they work differently do they?

Iwill stand corrected, but seem to recall that the inverter sets generate at a lower voltage then step it up through an inverter, thus they are able to generate a smoother waveform and a more reliable voltage/frequency. I stand by for incoming.

[John Orentas]

Notice the advertising guff to this genny state inverter technology. how do the cheap jobbies from B&Q generate their 240v then? Obviously a big difference on price so guess they work differently do they?

 

 

 

 

Been covered many times, a traditional generator regulates it's 50Hz by regulating it's speed just like the big ones in the power station.. An inverter type can operate and regulate itself regardless of the speed, it sort of pulls it's output apart and puts it all back together using an imposed time base and artificial sine wave, sounds very complicated and it probably is.

Edited November 10, 2007 by John Orentas

[Maverick]

Been covered many times, a traditional generator regulates it's 50Hz by regulating it's speed just like the big ones in the power station.. An inverter type can operate and regulate itself regardless of the speed, it sort of pulls it's output apart and puts it all back together using an imposed time base and artificial sine wave, sounds very complicated and it probably is.

 

But leaving the quieter operation to one side is it £550 better than a B&Q cheapy?