Lithium battery abuse

[Guest]

Just now, IanD said:

 

Well that's interesting, because there is on every insurance policy (e.g. car, house) that I've ever taken out.

 

How is it an insurance scare story when there are instances out there -- though probably not (yet) on the canals -- of people being refused cover, or it being limited to the battery cost, or not covering expensive boats?

 

Nobody on here is proposing to use NMC but I'm certain that one of the electric boat builders was proposing to use ex-EV batteries to reduce costs, I'll see if I can find the reference -- maybe Peter knows, IIRC it was he who pointed it out?

 

How often do I have to keep saying that the problem is not people who understand lithium batteries but the newbies who don't?

 

I get my car insurance through the meerkats and have never ever seen the box you refer to. Never as in not ever.

[IanD]

8 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

'Probably' implies something is more likely to happen than 'possibly'.

 

You over egged it.

 

And "possibly" implies something is much less likely to happen than "probably" 😉

 

Insurance companies are famous for trying to weasel out of paying claims for the most tenuous reasons, and I suspect an NMC battery fire would not be quite so tenuous as many... 😞

5 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

I get my car insurance through the meerkats and have never ever seen the box you refer to. Never as in not ever.

Good for you. Have you read the small print on your actual policy, not what you tell the meerkats? Bet you there's a "failure to disclose" clause there... 😉

Edited February 22, 2022 by IanD

[Tony Brooks]

4 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

I get my car insurance through the meerkats and have never ever seen the box you refer to. Never as in not ever.

 

I bet it is hidden in the reams of small print you get back with your policy from the insurer, not what is effectively an agent. it is my understanding that even if it is not there contract law requires you to disclose anything that will affect the viability f the contract and if you do not the contract is voidable. I am with IanD on this and would be very wary when dealing with insurance companies or their agents.

[Guest]

Just now, IanD said:

Insurance companies are famous for trying to weasel out of paying claims for the most tenuous reasons, and I suspect an NMC battery fire would not be quite so tenuous as many... 😞

 

Yes we know that.

 

Just as social media and internet forums are well known for the generation of scare stories and mis information.

 

By the way, just like my car insurance my caravan insurance doesnt have one of the boxes you refered to either.

6 minutes ago, IanD said:

 😉

Good for you. Have you read the small print on your actual policy, not what you tell the meerkats? Bet you there's a "failure to disclose" clause there... 😉

 

Ah but that is not what you actually said though is it?

 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I bet it is hidden in the reams of small print you get back with your policy from the insurer, not what is effectively an agent. it is my understanding that even if it is not there contract law requires you to disclose anything that will affect the viability f the contract and if you do not the contract is voidable. I am with IanD on this and would be very wary when dealing with insurance companies or their agents.

 

To be clear I am not advocating playing fast and loose with info. you provide to an insrance company. I am pouring scorn on the suggestion every policy application specifically asks you when you apply and provide the facilty to answer.

 

They don't.

 

 

[IanD]

21 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

Yes we know that.

 

Just as social media and internet forums are well known for the generation of scare stories and mis information.

 

By the way, just like my car insurance my caravan insurance doesnt have one of the boxes you refered to either.

 

Ah but that is not what you actually said though is it?

 

Jeez, you really do like dancing on the head of a pin, don't you?

 

The policies I've taken out -- directly with insurers -- did have such a box. If you went through a broker like the meerkats it may well not do, but that doesn't make the "failure to disclose" small print any less valid, in fact it makes it more likely that people will be tripped up by it. Every insurance policy I've ever seen has a clause like this in the small print.

 

Please point out where anything I've said -- about NMC vs. LFP risk, insurance policy "failure to disclose" clauses and refusal to provide cover -- is wrong, or a "scare story".

 

You're very good at nitpicking and "pouring scorn" for the sake of argument, but rather less good on actual facts 😉

Edited February 22, 2022 by IanD

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, The Happy Nomad said:

 

To be clear I am not advocating playing fast and loose with info. you provide to an insrance company. I am pouring scorn on the suggestion every policy application specifically asks you when you apply and provide the facilty to answer.

 

They don't.

 

 

 

Probably not, especially from the commission hungry internet "agents", but what they ask you is irrelevant in this context. The actual contract is between you and this insurance company and ALL the words in the policy is what forms the basis of the contract. I understand insurance contracts are contracts "of upmost good faith" which in reality means you are required to tell the company about anything that may affect the risk, be it explicitly in the contract wording or not. However as I said I have always found such a clause in my home, car and boa insurance hidden in the policy document, the full one, not the simple summary.

[nicknorman]

31 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I bet it is hidden in the reams of small print you get back with your policy from the insurer, not what is effectively an agent. it is my understanding that even if it is not there contract law requires you to disclose anything that will affect the viability f the contract and if you do not the contract is voidable. I am with IanD on this and would be very wary when dealing with insurance companies or their agents.

 

I checked the small print of my policy, it doesn’t say that.

Another thing contract law is keen on is that the terms of a contract have to be reasonable and fair. The insurer is the expert in what they consider to be an increased risk, not a member of the public. Therefore if an insurer has a particular beef about an aspect of a boat which they know is “out there”, such as the type of batteries installed, it is unreasonable of them not to ask the specific question and then later refuse to pay out. A member of the public buying a boat may well not have any idea what type of battery is installed, nor realise the significance of it. That is not a fair grounds to refuse payment unless the question was specifically asked at inception.

Edited February 22, 2022 by nicknorman

[IanD]

22 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Probably not, especially from the commission hungry internet "agents", but what they ask you is irrelevant in this context. The actual contract is between you and this insurance company and ALL the words in the policy is what forms the basis of the contract. I understand insurance contracts are contracts "of upmost good faith" which in reality means you are required to tell the company about anything that may affect the risk, be it explicitly in the contract wording or not. However as I said I have always found such a clause in my home, car and boa insurance hidden in the policy document, the full one, not the simple summary.

 

And therein lies the problem -- even if somebody does succeed in taking out a policy on a boat with an ex-EV NMC battery bank (especially a DIY one), the insurance company can refuse to pay out a claim on the basis that they weren't specifically informed about the risks associated with this, or that the installer did not take stringent enough safety precautions.

 

Marine insurers who cover a lot of boats with lithium batteries -- there are thousands of yachts with them installed -- are well aware of the risks, most won't cover NMC at all, many won't cover LFP DIY installations only professional ones -- or restrict the boat value, some will only cover smaller size LFPs. Insurers who cover the UK inland waterways may not be this savvy yet because there are not many boats here with even LFP banks (and few or none with NMCs), but this still wouldn't stop them refusing to pay out in the event of a battery fire.

 

I'm going to give up on this now, I've said my bit.

7 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

 

I checked the small print of my policy, it doesn’t say that.

Another thing contract law is keen on is that the terms of a contract have to be reasonable and fair. The insurer is the expert in what they consider to be an increased risk, not a member of the public. Therefore if an insurer has a particular beef about an aspect of a boat which they know is “out there”, such as the type of batteries installed, it is unreasonable of them not to ask the specific question and then later refuse to pay out. A member of the public buying a boat may well not have any idea what type of battery is installed, nor realise the significance of it. That is not a fair grounds to refuse payment unless the question was specifically asked at inception.

 

Not true; in law, ignorance is no defence. Just because you weren't specifically asked and perhaps went "la la la I didn't know" (or didn't want to know) doesn't mean you're covered -- it's your boat and your batteries, you should know what you've got. That's the way insurance works, unfortunately 😞

 

Anyway, if you want to be the "canal NMC guinea-pig", feel free to install some nice cheap ex-EV NMC batteries, they're a bargain. It's your funeral -- possibly literally 😉

 

Edited February 22, 2022 by IanD

[Tony1]

So the advice for the newbies, when buying used lithium batteries, is to channel your inner Lawrence Olivier:

 

 

[peterboat]

56 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Well that's interesting, because there is on every insurance policy (e.g. car, house) that I've ever taken out.

 

How is it an insurance scare story when there are instances out there -- though probably not (yet) on the canals -- of people being refused cover, or it being limited to the battery cost, or not covering expensive boats?

 

Nobody on here is proposing to use NMC but I'm certain that one of the electric boat builders was proposing to use ex-EV batteries to reduce costs, I'll see if I can find the reference -- maybe Peter knows, IIRC it was he who pointed it out?

 

How often do I have to keep saying that the problem is not people who understand lithium batteries but the newbies who don't?

Its Finesse actually they were thinking on repurposing Nissan leaf cells with a appropriate control system, it would be at 48 volts so is doable I know of one other boat that has BMW 48 volts packs on it  with BMS etc works well and has done for a couple of years

[nicknorman]

19 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Not true; in law, ignorance is no defence. Just because you weren't specifically asked and perhaps went "la la la I didn't know" (or didn't want to know) doesn't mean you're covered -- it's your boat and your batteries, you should know what you've got. That's the way insurance works, unfortunately 😞

 

Anyway, if you want to be the "canal NMC guinea-pig", feel free to install some nice cheap ex-EV NMC batteries, they're a bargain. It's your funeral -- possibly literally 😉

 

Wow you really are clutching at straws now! And you know it🤣

Ignorance of the law is no defence. But that is not relevant to the terms of a contract, which is not law. It is a contract. Governed by contract law which, amongst other things, says that the terms of a contract must be fair. I am reminded of arguing with an Apple bod who kept saying “but Apple’s legal warranty terms say…” as if the warranty terms had somehow been passed as law by parliament.

Edited February 22, 2022 by nicknorman

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

 

I'm going to give up on this now, I've said my bit.

 

 

 

Thank god for that.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Probably not, especially from the commission hungry internet "agents", but what they ask you is irrelevant in this context. The actual contract is between you and this insurance company and ALL the words in the policy is what forms the basis of the contract. I understand insurance contracts are contracts "of upmost good faith" which in reality means you are required to tell the company about anything that may affect the risk, be it explicitly in the contract wording or not. However as I said I have always found such a clause in my home, car and boa insurance hidden in the policy document, the full one, not the simple summary.

 

But at which point do you stop?

 

I carry flammable BBQ lighting fluid in my caravan and LPG lighter fluid to fill the lighter too.  Do I need to tell my caravan insurer?

 

I presume they already know that caravanners carry significant amounts of LPG in large tanks when they venture out onto the roads, do I need to point this out to them too?

Edited February 22, 2022 by The Happy Nomad

[IanD]

33 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

Thank god for that.

You're the one nitpicking endlessly. Now I remember why I had you on the naughty step -- byeee...

43 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Wow you really are clutching at straws now! And you know it🤣

Ignorance of the law is no defence. But that is not relevant to the terms of a contract, which is not law. It is a contract. Governed by contract law which, amongst other things, says that the terms of a contract must be fair. I am reminded of arguing with an Apple bod who kept saying “but Apple’s legal warranty terms say…” as if the warranty terms had somehow been passed as law by parliament.

 

So you're happy to recommend that people install ex-EV NMCs in their boats then? Really?

44 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Its Finesse actually they were thinking on repurposing Nissan leaf cells with a appropriate control system, it would be at 48 volts so is doable I know of one other boat that has BMW 48 volts packs on it  with BMS etc works well and has done for a couple of years

Yes they were, and now they're not. Of course ex-EV NMC packs will *work* just fine on one boat, like they do in most cars, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea (it's not) or that the boat insurance will be valid.

Edited February 22, 2022 by IanD

[Guest]

Just now, IanD said:

You're the one nitpicking endlessly. Now I remember why I had you on the naughty step -- byeee...

 

I believe this is about the third or fourth time you've 'forgotten'. You need to work on your memory.

 

I am put on and off your pathetic so called 'naughty step' more often than one sees a Red bus on Oxford Street.

 

I really wish you'd make your mind up.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

I'm going to give up on this now, I've said my bit.

 

Clearly you haven't.

 

18 minutes ago, IanD said:

So you're happy to recommend that people install ex-EV NMCs in their boats then? Really?

Yes they were, and now they're not. Of course ex-EV NMC packs will *work* just fine on one boat, like they do in most cars, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea or that the boat insurance will be valid.

 

 

 

Edited February 22, 2022 by The Happy Nomad

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

 

So you're happy to recommend that people install ex-EV NMCs in their boats then? Really?

 

You have definitely lost the argument when you feel the need to misrepresent what I have said, in fact when you have to resort to pretending I said the exact opposite of what I said. Maybe you will say “oh but I put a question mark after it!” But others will not be convinced.

 

Standing by for you to call me “obnoxious” again, but you’d be correct bearing in mind your definition of “obnoxious” is “anyone who has a different opinion from me”.

Edited February 22, 2022 by nicknorman

[Naughty Cal]

1 hour ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

But at which point do you stop?

 

I carry flammable BBQ lighting fluid in my caravan and LPG lighter fluid to fill the lighter too.  Do I need to tell my caravan insurer?

 

I presume they already know that caravanners carry significant amounts of LPG in large tanks when they venture out onto the roads, do I need to point this out to them too?

There was a clause in our Insurance (and our warranty) for the motorhome that meant we had to inform them that we had installed Gaslow refillable LPG bottles.

 

There was no increase in premium for having them though.

[Guest]

50 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

You have definitely lost the argument when you feel the need to misrepresent what I have said, in fact when you have to resort to pretending I said the exact opposite of what I said. Maybe you will say “oh but I put a question mark after it!” But others will not be convinced.

 

Standing by for you to call me “obnoxious” again, but you’d be correct bearing in mind your definition of “obnoxious” is “anyone who has a different opinion from me”.

 

Bang on the money.

 

[IanD]

47 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

You have definitely lost the argument when you feel the need to misrepresent what I have said, in fact when you have to resort to pretending I said the exact opposite of what I said. Maybe you will say “oh but I put a question mark after it!” But others will not be convinced.

 

Standing by for you to call me “obnoxious” again, but you’d be correct bearing in mind your definition of “obnoxious” is “anyone who has a different opinion from me”.

I'm not calling you obnoxious, I'm questioning why you seem to be so against me pointing out the (factual) safety and (possible) insurance issues with using NMC batteries on boats as reasons why people shouldn't use them, even if they're available and seem a bargain.

 

-- Do you think they're safe to use on boats, especially as a DIY solution?

 

-- Do you think there will be no problem with insurance in this case?

 

If your answer to these questions is "yes", then you're effectively recommending their use.

 

If your answer to these questions is "no" then you're agreeing with me -- so why the aggression? 😉

[Guest]

54 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

There was a clause in our Insurance (and our warranty) for the motorhome that meant we had to inform them that we had installed Gaslow refillable LPG bottles.

 

There was no increase in premium for having them though.

 

Similarly we had to inform our car insurers that our car has a tow bar. I would say these are classed as modifications. And in the case of a gaslow system make your 'van more desirable to a thief.

 

Also no increase in premium.

 

 

Edited February 22, 2022 by The Happy Nomad

[nicknorman]

31 minutes ago, IanD said:

I'm not calling you obnoxious, I'm questioning why you seem to be so against me pointing out the (factual) safety and (possible) insurance issues with using NMC batteries on boats as reasons why people shouldn't use them, even if they're available and seem a bargain.

 

-- Do you think they're safe to use on boats, especially as a DIY solution?

 

-- Do you think there will be no problem with insurance in this case?

 

If your answer to these questions is "yes", then you're effectively recommending their use.

 

If your answer to these questions is "no" then you're agreeing with me -- so why the aggression? 😉

Two separate questions.

No I don’t think they are safe to use on boats as a diy solution unless the DIYer is competent in that field, which is unlikely.

Yes I think there will be no problem with insurance provided the installation has passed a BSS check.

 

We are not arguing about the technical aspects of Li batteries, we are arguing about the old chestnut of using insurance fear as a means to justify almost any argument.

 

33 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

Similarly we had to inform our car insurers that our car has a tow bar. I would say these are classed as modifications. And in the case of a gaslow system make your 'van more desirable to a thief.

 

Also no increase in premium.

The tow bar thing is interesting, my car came out of the factory with a tow bar, so it’s presence isn’t a modification. But of course it was an option so lots of other seemingly identical cars don’t have a tow bar. I doubt that the insurance Co. Is aware of the exact specification of each car leaving the factory in terms of factory fitted options.

[Tony Brooks]

Tangential to this there  was quiet a kerfuffle some years ago when an insurance company used, or tried to use the fact the car owner had fitted winter tyres (in winter) without informing them to try to repudiate the claim.  So, try to make the car less ;likely to have an accident and get your insurance voided.

[1st ade]

15 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

I doubt that the insurance Co. Is aware of the exact specification of each car leaving the factory in terms of factory fitted options.

They may well be - we sold our last car through an auction house - the only thing they wanted initially was the index number - within seconds told us which size engine, which gearbox, towbar, that it had the optional front fog-lights etc. I think the days of a "standard build" are gone, every one is built to a particular spec