Calorifier pump?

[Tony Brooks]

25 minutes ago, David Mack said:

The header tank is only there to supply a small quantity of make-up water to cover for any leakage, and to accommodate water pushed out of the main circuit as the engine warms up and the coolant expands.

 

I don't think that is correct for a heat exchnager engine using a skin tank(s) to cool what would normally be raw canal water. I think the header tank is just for the "raw water" circuit and has nothing to do with the normal engine coolant. I think the OP is using the manifold for that duty. Unless that is what you ment.

[Janz]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

I would expect the hose from the bottom of the second tank to go to the top of the first tank - possibly at the opposite end to the header tank and bottom connections. That way you have a complete circuit flowing from top to bottom through both skin tanks, then through the pump and heat exchanger. The header tank is only there to supply a small quantity of make-up water to cover for any leakage, and to accommodate water pushed out of the main circuit as the engine warms up and the coolant expands.

You're absolutely right, I just had a look. It's a bit too late to mess about with the little Jabsco pump now but tomorrow I'll clean it out & repack it. That's where I'm losing water. There are no other internal leaks but I can't see the lower skin tank hoses until it's dry. I shall completely empty the bilge, clean it all up & I'll know a lot more... I dip notice an external leak coming from the prop shaft but that was only a small drip & I'm hoping that turning the grease pump will stop that. All in all I'm pretty happy with my boat for what I paid for it. I've scraped & cleaned out everything under the cabin floor ready for some rust cure & paint. It all needs to dry right out including my 56 paving slabs but once that's done I can start thinking about flooring, wall cladding & a decent bathroom.

It'll be a lot of work but I'm confident that I can have it touring by mid summer.

👍

2 hours ago, Janz said:

I'm there now. Gonna have a look 👍

 

[Tony Brooks]

Re your little drip from the prop shaft and my telling you that your little pump had a gland packing under the big nut behind the pulley. Do you understand about gland packing? If not have a read of those notes.

 

Grease will probably stop the drip until you start to boat but I suspect the gland will need adjusting or possibly repacking but don't do anything until you understand these things.

[Janz]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

The hose clip in the middle of the rubber end cap implies there is a heat exchanger core inside it.

 

I can't make out the pipe run you describe. It needs a return pipe from the second skin tank (the 2" one) back to the header tank or first skin tank, otherwise you can't circulate the liquid.

 

It is very unusual to put the heat exchanger core between the two skin tanks, but it is still using both tanks to cool. Normally the pipework would be something like filler pipe from that header tank to one skin tank. Then ignoring that roughly 1/2" to 5/8" bore pipes/hoses from one skin tank bottom connection to top connection of the other. Then bottom connection of that tank to the Jabsco pump inlet. From Jabsco pump outlet to one rubber end cap of the  manifold and then from the other end cap into the top of the first skin tank.

 

In that way the hotter water enters the top of the tank and then drops as it cools and gets denser, only after it has passed through both tanks does it return to Jabsco pump to be recirculated.

 

I wonder if those totally stupid and poorly designed skin tanks has necessitated the fitting of an external tank or pipe loop to augment the cooling capacity. Skin tanks should be very thin but cover a large area. In your case a bit shy of 9 sq ft but only about half to one inch thick. For just canal work you could get away with a smaller skin tank but it might boil on rivers and tideways. You need to find the way the second tank connects back to the pump.

 

It does go back to the skin tank, I double checked. I have learned a lot today & I'm very grateful for the input I've received. I'm going to look at your website in depth when I get home & then check the calorifier threads for the necessary fittings & perhaps see if I can install a car heater blower which will help me out a lot with comfort whilst doing the work. I have an old Saab 9-5 which has a blown turbo & sludge issues. It needs to be scrapped so I think that would be a great donor vehicle for the heater & stereo system, some hydraulic rams from the boot & bonnet to hold up my solar panels, various hosing, relays, wiring looms & fuse boxes, the battery, nuts, bolts, even the tyres will come in handy...

[MtB]

9 minutes ago, Janz said:

even the tyres will come in handy...

 

Not as fenders, hopefully.

 

Loose tyres in the cut (usually fallen off a boat using them as fenders) are a Really Bad Thing as occasionally one will fit itself over the propeller on a narrowboat. They fit really well and are an utter beach to get off again. Just so you know! 

[Janz]

12 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Re your little drip from the prop shaft and my telling you that your little pump had a gland packing under the big nut behind the pulley. Do you understand about gland packing? If not have a read of those notes.

 

Grease will probably stop the drip until you start to boat but I suspect the gland will need adjusting or possibly repacking but don't do anything until you understand these things.

I shall. I need some down time. It took me the best part of a week to get the boat from Herts back to Brentford, & I've been roughing it all the way, cooking off a camping stove & doing jobs on the move to get everything working like the water, the solar, the lights & the engine. This boat hasn't been in the water since 2012! Forty odd locks might not seem much to experienced boaters but it was pretty tough going for a novice... especially the Hanwell flight which I had to do in the dark. One of the locks there near the old asylum needed a larger size windlass... I had to use four spanners cable tied together..! Last night was the first night I spent in my own bed & the shower this morning was bliss...

[Tacet]

Boats are built and adjusted in all sorts of weird manners depending on what was to hand and what problem was uppermost at the time.

 

But possibly, the engine cooling was, at one stage, achieved by drawing raw, canal water through the Bowman heat exchanger using the Jabsco pump (and retaining the original recirculatory system on the engine).  Then it was changed to a circulatory system on the (formerly raw-side) using the two skin tanks - keeping the engine side the same. 

 

Current practice would usually be to have a single circulatory system passing through the engine and the skin tanks - and driven only by the engine pump.  Quite why this was not done - who knows.  But, if there is no hidden issue preventing this type of system working, it does away with both the Bowman heat exchanger and the Jabsco pump.  I believe the innards of the Bowman can be removed - leaving just the casting to take the necessary connections.

 

On the other hand, if the skin tanks were undersized, it may have been changed to raw-water cooling; and back again or whatever

 

[Janz]

8 minutes ago, Tacet said:

Boats are built and adjusted in all sorts of weird manners depending on what was to hand and what problem was uppermost at the time.

 

But possibly, the engine cooling was, at one stage, achieved by drawing raw, canal water through the Bowman heat exchanger using the Jabsco pump (and retaining the original recirculatory system on the engine).  Then it was changed to a circulatory system on the (formerly raw-side) using the two skin tanks - keeping the engine side the same. 

 

Current practice would usually be to have a single circulatory system passing through the engine and the skin tanks - and driven only by the engine pump.  Quite why this was not done - who knows.  But, if there is no hidden issue preventing this type of system working, it does away with both the Bowman heat exchanger and the Jabsco pump.  I believe the innards of the Bowman can be removed - leaving just the casting to take the necessary connections.

 

On the other hand, if the skin tanks were undersized, it may have been changed to raw-water cooling; and back again or whatever

 

I met a fella at a bike meet a few years ago at the Ace. He'd rocked up in an Austin Mini. The more trad bikers there laughed at him until they saw that he'd put a Yamaha R1 engine in it & converted it to RWD. It would have eaten their lardy cruisers...

Anything goes is the moral I s'pose. All I know about the boat is that it was built in 1981 & last licensed back in 2012. It could have had an engine swap in that time. It had a very expensive paint job & rear canopy fitted at one point because it's in good nick externally, however the interior is terrible. Awful plastic panels, woeful bathroom, even the spray foam has been applied badly.

Nothing about it makes any sense. It looks like it was once a project & somebody turned it into another project.

I'm going to save it because it deserves it & I like messing with old air cooled single cylinder motorbikes, so even though my skills ain't exactly transferable, I can learn, turn it around & because it has been gutted it's pretty much a blank canvas. I think I can get it nice for less that £1000 if I use reclaimed timber & buy some sensible retro appliances from ebay. I've already seen a gas oven I really like, I have a gas/12/240v fridge. It already has a Thetford cassette toilet & crap shower. The rest I can furnish with stuff from my place - loft bed, shelving unit, sink, worktop, table, chairs, telly etc... it's just cool being on the water. My pal bought a 57' 2008 boat from Whilton & I helped him bring it down here last year. That's when I got the yen for one but I could never find anything near my budget until this came along...

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, Janz said:

I have a gas/12/240v fridge.

 

OMG, popcorn time....  

 

 

[Janz]

Haha, are they bad news? It was given to me by someone who told me to turn it upside down to get it working...

Is it a sky hooks/tartan paint thing? Is this some novice initiation right of passage - see how long he lugs the bent fridge down the canal?

😂

Do I have to pass it on to some next noob?

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, Janz said:

Haha, are they bad news? It was given to me by someone who told me to turn it upside down to get it working...

Is it a sky hooks/tartan paint thing? Is this some novice initiation right of passage - see how long he lugs the bent fridge down the canal?

😂

Do I have to pass it on to some next noob?

 

Sort of. 

 

Thing is, they are AWESOMELY brilliant things on gas, IF you can squeeze them through the BSS. (You do have one?) But diabolical battery killers if you use them on the 12V. 

[Janz]

7 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Sort of. 

 

Thing is, they are AWESOMELY brilliant things on gas, IF you can squeeze them through the BSS. (You do have one?) But diabolical battery killers if you use them on the 12V. 

Yeah, I have one 'til mid July. Dunno how or why I have one though. There was nothing on the tub apart from a disconnected Dometic dolls house sink & hob combo whacked into a bit of chip board & a Bowman (or Boatman) stove & flue, with no hole in the roof to put it.

Maybe the last owner bought it on a whim after installing them plastic panels 😂

It's unused.

[Janz]

[TheBiscuits]

2 hours ago, Janz said:

I shall. I need some down time. It took me the best part of a week to get the boat from Herts back to Brentford, & I've been roughing it all the way, cooking off a camping stove & doing jobs on the move to get everything working like the water, the solar, the lights & the engine. This boat hasn't been in the water since 2012! Forty odd locks might not seem much to experienced boaters but it was pretty tough going for a novice... especially the Hanwell flight which I had to do in the dark. One of the locks there near the old asylum needed a larger size windlass... I had to use four spanners cable tied together..! Last night was the first night I spent in my own bed & the shower this morning was bliss...

 

You'd been awarded five biscuit points until the last sentence.  You lost one for needing a comfortable bed and hot running water ...

 

Seriously, good on you.  The initial delivery trip tends to be the one that teaches you the most about your boat - and also about yourself if it's your first one.

 

[David Mack]

4 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I don't think that is correct for a heat exchnager engine using a skin tank(s) to cool what would normally be raw canal water. I think the header tank is just for the "raw water" circuit and has nothing to do with the normal engine coolant. I think the OP is using the manifold for that duty. Unless that is what you ment.

This boat is unusual in having two closed circulations - one around the engine and bowman heat exchanger, and a second between the bowman and the two skin tanks (plumbed in series). Both circulations will need their own header tanks to provide make-up water and to cope with expansion. The bowman is the header tank for the engine circulation, the plastic tank against the hull side above the batteries in @Janz's photos is the header tank for the bowman-skin tank circulation.

[Janz]

8 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

You'd been awarded five biscuit points until the last sentence.  You lost one for needing a comfortable bed and hot running water ...

 

Seriously, good on you.  The initial delivery trip tends to be the one that teaches you the most about your boat - and also about yourself if it's your first one.

 

Loool..!

Thanks 👍

Had to wean myself off the cold bucket & sponge massages.

[Janz]

12 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Re your little drip from the prop shaft and my telling you that your little pump had a gland packing under the big nut behind the pulley. Do you understand about gland packing? If not have a read of those notes.

 

Grease will probably stop the drip until you start to boat but I suspect the gland will need adjusting or possibly repacking but don't do anything until you understand these things.

Thanks, I looked it up. I get the concept but I will probably need to see it in front of me. Looking at the Jabsco pump, I think that would be a good place to start because the gland nut & locking nut are wound tight to their fullest extent.

[Tony Brooks]

11 minutes ago, Janz said:

Thanks, I looked it up. I get the concept but I will probably need to see it in front of me. Looking at the Jabsco pump, I think that would be a good place to start because the gland nut & locking nut are wound tight to their fullest extent.

 

I think that pump uses a pre-formed packing that you might be able to buy from https://www.jabscoshop.com/  but if you can beg a short length of (say) 6mm or 1/4" packing and squash it it will probably make one coil to fit that pump. With the packing out and the drive belt slack try wobbling the shaft in the pump body do you can see how badly worn it is.

 

If buying parts in you would be well advised to get a new impeller, gasket, and a spare cover screw or two. The impellers are service parts and are often changed every year on sea boats.

 

Post a photo of your stern gland (the shaft gland) because it may only need adjusting rather than packing. We can then advise.

[Janz]

Thanks, Tony.

I have read through the notes. Well done for bringing this to my attention. I now see the importance as well as the practical necessity. I'll have a good look & if my pump is salvageable I'll order some bespoke packing along with a new belt. I'll also take some pics of the stern gear.

I have a grease gun for my Stihl gardening tools. I'm going to get a hand pump from Screwfix for the bilge. I was going to use the shower pump that I repaired last night but it's a Whale Gulper & I just saw the price of 'em, so I'll not use that...

[LEO]

Hi,

I had a boat with a pump like the one in the photo, it's a Jabsco unit, with 2 bearings and grease caps, I recall they were designed to drip periodically, over tightening the gland nut to over come this was ruled out in the instructions. I used to catch the drips in a small plastic bucket. It gave good service and was used to circulate raw water in a heat exchanger system on a 1.5 BMC, The pump was purchased from Cleghorn and Waring at Royston.

[Janz]

2 minutes ago, LEO said:

Hi,

I had a boat with a pump like the one in the photo, it's a Jabsco unit, with 2 bearings and grease caps, I recall they were designed to drip periodically, over tightening the gland nut to over come this was ruled out in the instructions. I used to catch the drips in a small plastic bucket. It gave good service and was used to circulate raw water in a heat exchanger system on a 1.5 BMC, The pump was purchased from Cleghorn and Waring at Royston.

Cheers for that. I would definitely like to save mine if I can & refurbish it with new parts. It looks like it isn't running true. The belt is kicked out as if the shaft on the pump is too long. Either that or the engine pulley that drives it is too short or possibly was a double pulley that was replaced with a single one. It's that noticeable. When I bought the boat there was a small plastic bucket underneath it but I just assumed it was for the bilge. I shall replace that first 👍

[LEO]

Cleghorn and Waring may have parts or advice, you can move the Pulley along the shaft to get the optimum drive position, I use to use a Picador ally pulley, a fairly big dia. one as I did not want the pump running too fast. Depending on the liquid pumped these units have to be frost protected by draining down - generally unscrewing the cover screws. Mine came with a comprehensive manual - this may be available on line somewhere (try Jasbsco site) they are good pumps, I have the single bearing unit as a spare.

[Tony Brooks]

9 minutes ago, LEO said:

Depending on the liquid pumped these units have to be frost protected by draining down - generally unscrewing the cover screws.

 

In this particular case the frost protection should be by antifreeze in the skin tank circuit but perfectly true for most of the systems that use these pumps.

[Janz]

12 hours ago, LEO said:

Cleghorn and Waring may have parts or advice, you can move the Pulley along the shaft to get the optimum drive position, I use to use a Picador ally pulley, a fairly big dia. one as I did not want the pump running too fast. Depending on the liquid pumped these units have to be frost protected by draining down - generally unscrewing the cover screws. Mine came with a comprehensive manual - this may be available on line somewhere (try Jasbsco site) they are good pumps, I have the single bearing unit as a spare.

I gave the pump a good looking at today. Fired up the engine & ran it. The shaft seems ok, albeit leaking pretty bad. I reckon I'd get a pint out of the gland bit in five or six minutes. It's also leaking from the gasket & either from one of the caps which won't budge & looks like it has been cross threaded or from where the whole fitting screws to the body. The other one is ok. They are fine threads. One of the screws that holds the two pipe halves together is a bodge so someone's been in there. I'll have to take it off, strip it & rebuild it.

Oh yeah! 😂

I stuffed it full of grease & tightened it all up but no cigar.

The pulley is well out of whack. It's held on what looks like a taper with a grub screw.

I'm gonna do a post-mortem & maybe get the bits to fix it.

I couldn't hear any bearing noise...

 

[Tony Brooks]

6 hours ago, Janz said:

I couldn't hear any bearing noise...

 

You would not, there are no bearings as such. Just the shaft running in the brass/bronze body. In other words plain bearings.