Waste Disposal Market Research - 2

[David Mack]

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

there must always be at least one bucket  in the 'it does smell' phase of composting.

Is there an 'it does smell' phase of composting, if you are doing it properly?

[Tony Brooks]

33 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Is there an 'it does smell' phase of composting, if you are doing it properly?

 

There should be if the whole body of the compost is decomposing aerobically, that is another ting I have a problem with if it is stored in a container with airtight walls and base and not stirred/turned frequently enough.

[MtB]

 

 

So it appears that "sh!t stirring is something all separating toilet owners do on a regular basis, literally. Lol! 

 

 

[Kate_MM]

56 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

But in your earlier post your said :

 

 

 

If, after 8-10 months it has no smell, that suggests that prior to that period IT DID smell.

 

As you have a continuous 'production line' (in your case, 3 buckets) of 'poo' at different stages of the biological process, there must always be at least one bucket  in the 'it does smell' phase of composting.

 

You cannot have it both ways.

 

Are you asking me a question? Or making a statement that you would like me to agree with? I am beginning to find this discussion surreal, I don't think I've ever been part of a thread where no one has actually asked me a question, where every point has been put to me as a statement. Are you all lawyers? Because all this '... that suggests' and from Tony, 'one presumes...' is starting to feel remarkably like appearing in a witness in a court case. As though all you want to do is prove me wrong, trip me up, show that I have no idea what I am talking about. 

 

Your line of interrogation follows a certain logic, there is an 'after' therefore there must be a 'before' so one of my statements must be a lie. In the full sentence there were three things that happened after 8-10mths: being fully composted, resembling garden soil and there being no smell. I tend to throw them all in together because it suggests a completed and finished process.

 

So yes, you are right. There is more smell at 3 mths than at 8mths. But it's so slight at any stage it's difficult to measure. 

 

Generally speaking no stage of the process smells - as in unpleasant toilet like smells. that's the kind of smell I'm referring to, the problematic sort. It is compost so sometimes there is a slight compost aroma, some have described it as a bit 'farmyardy', but no more. Unless it goes wrong but I've already covered that. I know that it is very hard when you have had no experience of a composting system to grasp the fact that we do not have buckets of poo, we have buckets of composting material. 

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

3 minutes ago, Kate_MM said:

 

Are you asking me a question? Or making a statement that you would like me to agree with? I am beginning to find this discussion surreal, I don't think I've ever been part of a thread where no one has actually asked me a question, where every point has been put to me as a statement. Are you all lawyers? Because all this '... that suggests' and from Tony, 'one presumes...' is starting to feel remarkably like appearing in a witness in a court case. As though all you want to do is prove me wrong, trip me up, show that I have no idea what I am talking about. 

 

 

I think you  may have it

[Kate_MM]

21 hours ago, David Mack said:

Kate,

Thank you for taking the time to set out the way your composting system works. That is a much better explanation than I have seen from other 'compost toilet' users (or the bag and binners). 

Just one question. How do you transport the composted waste from the boat to your friend's garden? I can see that final step being a difficulty for liveaboards who don't have the use of a vehicle.

 

Hi David,

Thank you, I'm glad you found it helpful. Mine is a closed system in that my poo goes into a 25L bucket in the loo and stays in the same bucket until the process is complete  - I do have a car so can generally pop the bucket in there and take it when I'm going to stay or collect my post. I have also made use of Urban Moorings in Wolverhampton who will accept humanure from passing boaters (but not by road - they would get swamped!). 

 

One of things that tends to surprise people is that the material shrinks during the process so a 25L bucket goes to about 18L, still a bit heavy but less than a cassette and much easier to carry because it isn't sloshing around. Other's line the primary bucket with compostable bag and remove and transport it more frequently if there's a compost bin at the other end.

 

And I think we will gradually see community composting facilities because this isn't going to go away; however much the antagonists  talk nonsense on social media!

 

I don't know if you are already a member of the compost loo group, if not there are many useful resources there. I am an admin so of course biased. 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/compostingloos

 

And on Thursday there is an online session 'What really happens to your poo in a compost bin'. I will be talking to two very experienced composters of humanure, John Cosham and Martin Doyle, about the composting process and its application to loos. The details are all here:

https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/what-really-happens-to-your-poo-in-a-compost-bin-tickets-267079119837

 

It is the first in a series of recorded sessions (because we keep getting asked for them) so you need to be aware of that but we will cover setting your screen name and turning your camera off before we hit the red button.

 

Hope that was helpful

 

Best wishes

Kate

[TheBiscuits]

9 minutes ago, Kate_MM said:

As though all you want to do is prove me wrong, trip me up, show that I have no idea what I am talking about. 

 

Yep, that's exactly what they are after.

 

You are discussing responsible use of a composting system via a waterless separating toilet, you are a CC'er and much worse than this you are female.  

 

Skills, experience and actual facts will not sway them on this topic.  They know what they know and it's crucial that anyone who makes them think must be beaten down by sheer volume.

 

It's what's known as the CWDF welcome, despite the fact you've been a member here since 2008 ...

 

Other trivial details like pumpout or cassette probably ends up in the river anyway is not something they care to discuss - once it's gone in the magic "away" pipes it's not their problem, even if they can sometimes wave to their output as it comes out of the storm drain ...

[Tony Brooks]

15 minutes ago, Kate_MM said:

Because all this '... that suggests' and from Tony, 'one presumes...' is starting to feel remarkably like appearing in a witness in a court case. As though all you want to do is prove me wrong, trip me up, show that I have no idea what I am talking about. 

 

As far as I am concerned you are wrong. I have no interest in proving you wrong apart from your initial statement to the effect that boaters' toilet problems have been solved by composting. Your later posts show the problems with composting toilets have not been solved for all and sundry. As I keep saying for you it works most of the time (you did say composting occasionally went wrong for you and needed more attention) and I am sure it does for Peter.

 

If you make a statement such as the one you initially made you should be willing to back that up or withdraw the statement. As you have tried to back it up you have illuminated the shortcomings of the system. As you are an advocate     and evangelist for this type of toilet your assertions have been questioned. It seem that you claim some sort of supreme knowledge but seem reluctant to admit to problems. By over claiming and needing to have the problems dragged out you do your cause no good at all. Just admit you did over claim, clearly state the problems a very wide selections of boaters may have and you will get support but not if you still insist there are no problems.

[Kate_MM]

8 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Yep, that's exactly what they are after.

 

You are discussing responsible use of a composting system via a waterless separating toilet, you are a CC'er and much worse than this you are female.  

 

Skills, experience and actual facts will not sway them on this topic.  They know what they know and it's crucial that anyone who makes them think must be beaten down by sheer volume.

 

It's what's known as the CWDF welcome, despite the fact you've been a member here since 2008 ...

 

Other trivial details like pumpout or cassette probably ends up in the river anyway is not something they care to discuss - once it's gone in the magic "away" pipes it's not their problem, even if they can sometimes wave to their output as it comes out of the storm drain ...

 

Thank you! You have cheered me up no end!

[Tony Brooks]

32 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Yep, that's exactly what they are after.

 

You are discussing responsible use of a composting system via a waterless separating toilet, you are a CC'er and much worse than this you are female.  

 

Skills, experience and actual facts will not sway them on this topic.  They know what they know and it's crucial that anyone who makes them think must be beaten down by sheer volume.

 

It's what's known as the CWDF welcome, despite the fact you've been a member here since 2008 ...

 

Other trivial details like pumpout or cassette probably ends up in the river anyway is not something they care to discuss - once it's gone in the magic "away" pipes it's not their problem, even if they can sometimes wave to their output as it comes out of the storm drain ...

 

No, you are wrong. It is nothing to do with her being a CCer, or a women. It is nothing to do with the responsible use of separating toilets as far as I am concerned. It is to do with her, in my view, making a misleading claim about  these toilets in response to someone looking for the experience across a  wide range or all boaters. I would react in the same way if someone had claimed a cassette type or pump out types had solved the problems related to boat toilets.

 

Whatever toilet one discusses the produce can end up in the canals or rivers, just as partially decomposed separating toilet product can end up in waterways  or spread about the environment. Anyone who tries to claim otherwise can have a very poor grasp of reality. You last paragraph is just deflection from having to disclose and discuss the drawbacks of separating toilets.

 

Edited to add that at least now the OP, Newton have the chance to see what some may see as drawbacks to the system, especially as it is admitted that composting can go wrong. It also shows a couple may need to store six bins of composting spoil while a family of four would need to store - how many?

Edited February 12, 2022 by Tony Brooks

[TheBiscuits]

2 minutes ago, Kate_MM said:

 

Thank you! You have cheered me up no end!

 

You are very welcome Kate. 

 

We bought our Separett 501 seat/separator kit in June 2015 and there is no way we would go to another system.  The box it sits on has been rebuilt three times and moved position twice during refits but the unit itself is still in daily use.

 

My better half is a member of your facebook group(s) too.

 

 

[Kate_MM]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

I think that if another design of toilet overcame the problems of composting toilets that you now admit to then yes we do need another type of toilet. If it did not overcome the composting problems but did overcome the problems for any other main stream boat toilet system then yes, we need another type of toilet.

 

I do not think that you are lying in your own case but as this post has gone on you have detailed and confirmed a fair few problems and that is not what your initial post on this topic  said. You said the problems have been overcome by composting or words to that effect. I am sorry but that is not totally true, in your case most of the time, but not all the time by your own admission it is true, a sit is in Peter's case but I have not said that is untrue. I said your initial statement was untrue in general and eventually you have basically confirmed that fact.

 

I don't recall any information of how you deal with the urine.

 

Don't assume that you are the only one who understands aerobic and anaerobic decomposition. I had to research it about 50 years ago when we were introducing holding tanks and pump outs. It is one reason I have some concerns over storing the composting waste in a sealed container. In my view that container needs a vents to let oxygen in as it is used up by the bacteria. I think if you do not stir it often enough to re-oxygenate the compost  it may well start to smell. But there we have what some/many would see as a disadvantage of composting. A single pump out at 14 day or more intervals that can deal with toilet paper and allow easy cleaning of the bowl etc. verse ongoing compost maintenance and possibly soiled paper disposal.

 

PS I do compost all my soiled kitchen towel, it is a good source of brown waste to mix with the green.

 

Ok, how about we delete the original comment - I apologise if it caused confusion. It was made in a specific context and you have extrapolated it and decided that that I am claiming something that I have never intended. I do not believe or suggest there is one simple solution and that it is composting. There are many complex issues to deal with - hence my working with CRT to attempt to improve things. 

 

To address the specific points you make:

I think it less about the type of toilet than the system. No toilet works on its own.

I accept that what was an initial response in a specific context has caused confusion. I have said several times that I am not claiming to solve all boat bog problems, I would be grateful if you could accept that.

I'm sorry you don't recall my point about disposing of urine, it was part of the whole process. I said elsan if available but that diluted into the ground is an option, It is a very small amount (2-3l at at time) and is a good fertilizer. 

I didn't assume I am the only one who knows about anaerobic/aerobic decomposition, I carefully prefaced it with a comment to the effect that you may already know this.

I agree with your concerns over any attempts to compost in a sealed container - that is why none of us do it. We all use vented containers of some sort.

 

 

[Kate_MM]

35 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

As far as I am concerned you are wrong. I have no interest in proving you wrong apart from your initial statement to the effect that boaters' toilet problems have been solved by composting. Your later posts show the problems with composting toilets have not been solved for all and sundry. As I keep saying for you it works most of the time (you did say composting occasionally went wrong for you and needed more attention) and I am sure it does for Peter.

 

If you make a statement such as the one you initially made you should be willing to back that up or withdraw the statement. As you have tried to back it up you have illuminated the shortcomings of the system. As you are an advocate     and evangelist for this type of toilet your assertions have been questioned. It seem that you claim some sort of supreme knowledge but seem reluctant to admit to problems. By over claiming and needing to have the problems dragged out you do your cause no good at all. Just admit you did over claim, clearly state the problems a very wide selections of boaters may have and you will get support but not if you still insist there are no problems.

 

I feel we have been speaking entirely different languages. I thought I was being as clear and open about the systems and process as I could be. I have always accepted there are challenges and problems - that's what the composting group I am an admin for spend a lot of time working through. I do have challenges for Neuton as their starting point and research question seems to be too vague - I accept I made a huge mistake in making what was a bit of a throwaway line in saying 'we have already got a version of that' (emphasising the 'a' not suggesting 'the'). I think this is the line that you have decided is me over claiming. However, as Rahul and I are arranging a meeting next week, I'm sure we'll be able to move on from that. 

 

I have found your style of interrogation based on what you assumed I have said very hard. I felt you were telling me what I meant or was thinking. You didn't need to drag anything out of me - a few clearly phrased questions, something on the lines of 'I found you comment xxx confusing, what exactly do you mean? Or, 'it sounds as though you think, could you say more?' would have done the trick nicely. I got very baffled and muddled by it and made the mistake of trying to answer what I thought the question was, only to have the very thing I thought I had clarified thrown at me again. You have a very powerful and authoritative voice, and whilst I'm sure you never intend to leave someone feeling confused and belittled, that is how I am feeling now. I thought I was answering your questions, making a positive contribution, making it clear that I am not claiming any magical powers for anything, least of all a toilet system, only to be attacked again...

 

Separating toilets and composting systems aren't going to go away and we need to find ways to work with them and whatever problems they generate to make progress. Merely talking about them in a forum won't achieve anything. I would like to invite you to take part in one of the online workshops I run regularly. I suggest a title on the lines of 'Why composting is wrong' or something similarly provocative.  You can have the floor/screen and present your views of what is wrong, why we need to be concerned and hear from, and challenge,  boaters who are composting - the nature of these things means we are likely to get the more positive ones but I would do my best to ensure that those who are finding it harder are represented, if not in person then via written input. You can be as outspoken as you like, my only condition is that everyone gets a chance to have their say.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[haggis]

Thank you Kate for all the information you have given in this thread and it has answered some of the questions I had about composting on a boat. It is not for me (firmly in the pumpout fan club) but good to know how other systems work. 

Thanks too to Tony for asking some of the questions which puzzled me.

[Kate_MM]

1 hour ago, haggis said:

Thank you Kate for all the information you have given in this thread and it has answered some of the questions I had about composting on a boat. It is not for me (firmly in the pumpout fan club) but good to know how other systems work. 

Thanks too to Tony for asking some of the questions which puzzled me.

 

Thank you! It is a completely different system and a complex one so I quite understand that people have questions and concerns. And it is good that there is now a range of choices - a bog for everyone 🙂 

[Kate_MM]

Further to all the above discussion if anyone is interested in what happens to poo in a compost bin, the FB composting group are hosting an online session tomorrow evening where I'll be introducing two people with about 50 years of humanure composting between them: John Cosham and Martin Doyle who will present the science and discuss their experiences.

 

The event will online via Zoom at 8pm, Thursday Feb 17th. It will last around an hour. The core presentation part will be recorded; however, there will be time for additional questions after we turn recording off. By joining you consent to take part in a recorded session - but we will cover turning your camera off and changing (or removing) your screen name so that you can take part anonymously. 

 

Register for the link here: https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/what-really-happens-to-your-poo-in-a-compost-bin-tickets-267079119837

 

Best wishes

Kate

 

[Slow and Steady]

So, if one is a responsible separating toilet user, urine goes in the elsan. I'm sorry if this comes over as flippant but if that is the case you gain absolutely nothing but the fun of stirring and storing poo compost.

 

Again, apologies, but the only way I can see any convenience advantage in separating toilets is to use them irresponsibly. 

[MtB]

13 minutes ago, Slow and Steady said:

So, if one is a responsible separating toilet user, urine goes in the elsan. I'm sorry if this comes over as flippant but if that is the case you gain absolutely nothing but the fun of stirring and storing poo compost.

 

Again, apologies, but the only way I can see any convenience advantage in separating toilets is to use them irresponsibly. 

 

You little SCAMP! Poking holes in the Wisdom Of The Composting Masses. 

 

Like you, I see hardly any point in disposing of just the urine in the Elsan points. When you might as well dump the poo at the same time and save yourself all the shit stirring. 

 

God, am I gonna be cancelled?