Sailaway or Self fitted Sailaway

[anthony]

People say buying a sailaway is a false economy so I want to narrow this down into pounds and hours to see how much

money is actually saved by doing it yourself.

I will have 4 months to do this pretty much full time.

 

Going off the price for a 55 foot liverpool shell which is advertised at 13K without windows and front and back doors, side doors hatch and engine. Im trying to calculate the saving between buying a £22000. Liverpol sailaway with all the above included ready to go.

I mean how much will ballast actually cost and the materials it sits on for example. Surely the overall saving isnt going to be that substantial?

 

Then there is the engine and gearbox.

Do we buy the 5k Vetus that seems popular or do we buy a remanufactured BMC with gearbox for 3k.

Im told the BMC will be happier with up to 30% cooking oil mixed in with the red diesel is this true.

 

Its going to be difficult but its going to be fun so long as its not expensive fun.

 

Thanks.

[stuart]

I went down the sailaway route (engine fitted but nothing else) with a LB shell. Looking back I probably would now only buy a bare shell as I could then choose what engine I want and stern gear etc. as I did have problems with my Isuzu engine and gear box (see old threads)

 

As you listed, the costs soon mount up...

 

£13k shell

£5k engine

+ prop + stern gear + battery + oil + fuel filter + pipe work to engine + exhaust

 

+ 22mm ply flooring + 2ton of broken slabs

 

and probably the biggest cost... fitting it....

 

If your up for it it will probably be cheaper to buy the shell and fit your own engine just ensure you are happy at doing a full engine install (and have a crane/block+tackle) to lift an engine onto a boat!

[blackrose]

Its going to be difficult but its going to be fun so long as its not expensive fun.

 

It definately WILL be expensive fun.

 

Whether you can do these things yourself cheaper than LB can do them (plus make a bit of profit on them), very much depends on your experience; how skilled you are; how well set up you are in terms of tools, equipment and mates for the heavy jobs; and whether you are being realistic in your budget & timescales.

 

In a very simple example, when I went to visit LB I wasn't satisfied with the 3 recessed brass fender eyes on each side and I wanted an extra 2 on each side. Ian said he'd get it done for an extra £50 which i was happy to pay. Could I have done it myself for £50? Probably. I think they're about £8 each but then you've got he cost of bits and pieces like the hole cutter, but when you include your time it just wouldn't be worth the hassle.

 

A bloke at my marina is fitting out a LB widebeam shell. He's had one skilled bloke working on it full time and occasionally a couple of others. It's getting there now but it must be at least 6 months since they started. I heard how much he'd spent recently and because he's paying wages he'd have been better off buying a fully fitted boat from LB or another builder.

Edited October 16, 2007 by blackrose

[bottle]

Anthony

 

I can only tell you that my builder (professional) says it will take him and his team about four months to fit out my boat.

 

That team will at some time all be working on the boat at the same time.

 

From what I have gleaned from this forum and other places, DIY fit outs take at least three times longer than first estimated (think years) and if you include your man hours (at a reasonable rate) then it is almost cheaper to have the boat built for you.

 

If you have the time and the money and are determined then it is possible.

 

I wish you good luck.

 

I will relate from someone who has been refitting out a boat, they are doing it for the third time as they were not happing with the first two.

[anthony]

Some interesting replies.We simply cant afford a fully built boat.I was at Harrals this weekend and looked inside a fully fitted 50k boat!I wouldnt pay 30k for the quality this boat was at, as its finish quality was beneath my skill level in my opinion.My areas of consearn are the engine fitting which I believe are supplied fitted in with the price so I dont see the point of buying the engine and not have a full warranty.Plus i dont have the lifting gear or tools for the job.Then electrics.Then the labour of ballast.Is it possible to buy a shell with the engine and not the ballast and still get it to my mooring?I think an important question has got to be how finished does it need to be to be livable?

Edited October 16, 2007 by anthony

[bottle]

As to how finished, depends on what luxury and privacy you need.

 

I did see of one boat that was being fitted out by someone, 'camping' in it with a small tent, camping stove, and 'porta potti' in the corner.

 

The stage of the fitout, you buy at, will depend on the builder, they may be flexible you can only ask.

 

Whether a shell un-ballasted is safe to move I will have to leave to someone else

[blackrose]

I think an important question has got to be how finished does it need to be to be livable?

I lived on my lined sailaway "plus" from the day it was put into the water, but most of the electrics were in, the lining was in and the calorifier and plumbing tails was already in. Some others here have done it at a much more basic level and lined out the boat at the same time.

 

It's fine if you are living alone but don't expect dependants to want to do it. You start off camping and it gradually gets more comfortable. I was pouring buckets of river water over myself, soaping up & jumping into the Thames for a wash every couple of days at Reading. It certainly attracted some interested looks from passers by and other boaters, but it was a hot summer and needs must. For 2 months I washed my dishes under a garden waterbutt on the bow deck until i got running water.

 

Since nobody likes camping in the cold, the best time for boat delivery is around May when it's starting to get warmer.

[stuart]

Then the labour of ballast.Is it possible to buy a shell with the engine and not the ballast and still get it to my mooring?

 

Yes it is and I'm sure the boat will "drive" fine if a bit light on the water however what your really talking about is £100-£250 off the price of a sailaway - not worth bothering about. What others have done on this forum is to have the sailaway with ballast and flooring but to fit the flooring themselves (ie. just a pile of 8x4 sheets in the boat ready for you to use)

 

I'm not 100% finished on my sailaway and it definately could do with more craftmanship on some of the woodwork, however what I have created I'm happy with, the layout is perfect for the way I want to cruise and the electrics and shower/water are fine and I know where they all run !

 

Time taken so far - about 2 years and £35,000

[John Orentas]

Hi Anthony.

 

Aren't you floating yet!

 

"A bloke at my marina is fitting out a LB widebeam shell. He's had one skilled bloke working on it full time and occasionally a couple of others. It's getting there now but it must be at least 6 months since they started. I heard how much he'd spent recently and because he's paying wages he'd have been better off buying a fully fitted boat from LB or another builder".

 

This must be the most expensive option of all, I remember a 'DIY fit-out' article written by some silly woman, "The worst part is finding time to meet all the various tradesmen", some people deserve to be ripped off.

 

It is possible to do it all yourself, I have done it twice (sanctimonious) you don't need any particular skills most tasks when broken down are well within the realms of the average practical person.. Don't under estimate the job though, my first boat took me four years and my second boat five years, all your weekends + five nights a week.

 

I have estimated you can do it for half the price of a finished boat but you must have a naturally mean nature, roof vents, pigeon box, exhaust systems, all you can make yourself, sink units from wholesale plumbers and never, never set foot in a chandlers emporium.

 

Before you spend one penny, imprint this into your head, 'There is no going back' half finished boats are worth nothing so if you are the sort that has a half finished bathroom at home - Don't start.

[dor]

The one thing I seriously underestimated when I was preparing costings for my sailaway fitout was the cost of wood. 18mm blockboard oak-faced both sides (good quality) at nearly £50 a pop and the cost of solid oak sections.

 

My boat, bought as a basic lined sailaway, will finish up at about £50K, but it is to a high spec in terms of hull, electrics, engine, heating etc.

 

Is it worth it when a new boat can be had for £55K - ~£60K? I think so as no way would I get the specification I will have without having to pay for a lot of additional "extras". I now have the time, and reckon it will take me six months pretty much full time to get it over 90% done (what boat is ever 'finished'?). Obviously I'm not costing in my labour. Perhaps if I had got a job and used the money earned to buy a finished boat I might have been better off, but how do you cost the satisfaction of doing it yourself? Plus you know where all the wires and pipes go - you know that the water pipe joints are good and won't leak and the wiring isn't going to burst into flames in six months time.

 

A friend who is nearing completion of his boat reckons it has cost him about £30K BUT: he has been working on it for four years, the first three out of the water, it was bought as a bare shell and he was given his engine.

[Guest]

The one thing I seriously underestimated when I was preparing costings for my sailaway fitout was the cost of wood. 18mm blockboard oak-faced both sides (good quality) at nearly £50 a pop and the cost of solid oak sections.

 

My boat, bought as a basic lined sailaway, will finish up at about £50K, but it is to a high spec in terms of hull, electrics, engine, heating etc.

 

Is it worth it when a new boat can be had for £55K - ~£60K? I think so as no way would I get the specification I will have without having to pay for a lot of additional "extras". I now have the time, and reckon it will take me six months pretty much full time to get it over 90% done (what boat is ever 'finished'?). Obviously I'm not costing in my labour. Perhaps if I had got a job and used the money earned to buy a finished boat I might have been better off, but how do you cost the satisfaction of doing it yourself? Plus you know where all the wires and pipes go - you know that the water pipe joints are good and won't leak and the wiring isn't going to burst into flames in six months time.

 

A friend who is nearing completion of his boat reckons it has cost him about £30K BUT: he has been working on it for four years, the first three out of the water, it was bought as a bare shell and he was given his engine.

Most of that,plus we found we could spread the cost out, and things can be added at a later stage should you find you need them(I agree they are never really finished). One of the most enjoyable things I have ever done was fitting out our boat. I would start another tomorrow if SWMBO would let me

[Ray]

We're hopefully on the home run with our fitout - 1 year old on Thursday (if birth is the moment it enters the water). It was a lined sailaway, with flooring, ballast, engine, windows and doors.

 

I've been fortunate to be able to spend a relatively leisurely 12 months working on it, on average about 5 days a week, and six hours a day. That doesn't include all the pondering / thinking in between. You do need to be prepared to dedicate the necessary time, at the expense of virtually any social or family life.

 

If you have all the right tools and the skills you can probably do it faster than I have but you have to get the basics right and be able to think ahead so that you don't have to undo something you've already done in order to do something else. Make sure as much of the boat as possible can be dismantled, especially for servicing. Apart from the engine, walls and the electrics, the whole of our engine room comes to pieces without any tools.

 

Simple things like window positions and bearer / batten locations don't seem much at the start but they can make all the difference later on. We got the position of one window wrong, by just 3 inches and it cost us 5 sheets of veneered plywood.

 

You'll need to pay licence, insurance and moorings as soon as you start and may even need to finance any loan. You'll be buying a lot of stuff retail unless you have the right connections. Our sailaway cost us around £35k and by the time we've "finished" we'll probably have spent about another £25k (including the annual bills) and we haven't gone down the real luxury route (except for the Corian work surfaces). We have had ours painted as we're not that talented and wanted it to look good from the outside (at least). But its another job that needs to be fitted in when the weather is right.

 

I certainly wouldn't bank on getting any significant use out of the boat for around 9 months (if not loner), unless you don't mind sawdust in your bed linen!

 

Read as much as you can, plan for as long as you can and talk to as many people as you can. Better still, find someone who wants some help with theirs and then do your own afterwards!

[blackrose]

I have estimated you can do it for half the price of a finished boat but you must have a naturally mean nature, roof vents, pigeon box, exhaust systems, all you can make yourself, sink units from wholesale plumbers and never, never set foot in a chandlers emporium.

 

So where would one obtain something as simple and essential as a reliable bilge pump without visiting a chandlery, or an online chandlery? They're not all rip off merchants - my chandlery was able to procure my solid fuel stove for about £100 cheaper than anyone else including some online stove specialists.

Edited October 16, 2007 by blackrose

[John Orentas]

So where would one obtain something as simple and essential as a reliable bilge pump without visiting a chandlery, or an online chandlery? They're not all rip off merchants - my chandlery was able to procure my solid fuel stove for about £100 cheaper than anyone else including some online stove specialists.

 

 

Poetic licence ! Perhaps I should have said except as a last resort, as much as anything else because they have such a limited range of products.

[anthony]

fantastic replies many thanks everyone.

Jeez been looking at the cost of inverters and chargers am i right in thinking a grand barely covers it?

Think we may have to run a washing machine from a generator for a bit!

Its like any home though a room at a time but its worth the journey.

[ChrisPy]

When I hear of fully fitted new narrowboats at ~£60K I cannot understand the economics.

My self-fitted wide beam (insulated shell with floor and engine, not painted) will be well over that by the time it's finished, without adding the cost of marina ground rent for ~3 years.

Don't underestimate the savings to be made by a business that buys in bulk from trade sources, that manages the work in the correct sequence in controlled conditions, and that employs tradesmen who don't have to do the same job twice. How many amateurs can claim that on their first fit-out?

............... and no, I don't regret it, but it isn't the cheapest way to get afloat. If you consider it as a hobby project, fine. If you decide to cost in your hours then it doesn't make sense.

[Gary Peacock]

When I hear of fully fitted new narrowboats at ~£60K I cannot understand the economics.

My self-fitted wide beam (insulated shell with floor and engine, not painted) will be well over that by the time it's finished, without adding the cost of marina ground rent for ~3 years.

Don't underestimate the savings to be made by a business that buys in bulk from trade sources, that manages the work in the correct sequence in controlled conditions, and that employs tradesmen who don't have to do the same job twice. How many amateurs can claim that on their first fit-out?

............... and no, I don't regret it, but it isn't the cheapest way to get afloat. If you consider it as a hobby project, fine. If you decide to cost in your hours then it doesn't make sense.

 

 

I think boaters think the profits on full fits are fantastic the reality is not quite so good, we were playing with some "sample" quotes for budget boats last week and believe me what we worked out the possible profit was likely to be wouldn't even pay a one man bands wages!

 

The best DIY boats I see tend to be the ones that are more about the challenge of doing rather than the saving money ones that I find never get fully finished this is especially true of the living on it while building it brigade!

 

Saying that I have seen some nice DIY boats but they have all taken a while to do and in real terms not been a massive saving.

 

We have got one coming back this morning that left in a fully lined with electrics plumbing and heating done form a year ago. Out of interest I will have a look on it and see what it's like now it had about 3 or 4 weeks work from being a full fit when it left us.

[WJM]

Fitting out your own boat; If it is economics that drives you then stick to your day job, do what you do do well and leave the specialist tasks to the experts. That is unless it is a simple challenge to create something of your own and you can afford to spend months and years climbing up a learning curve.

[Gary Peacock]

I think boaters think the profits on full fits are fantastic the reality is not quite so good, we were playing with some "sample" quotes for budget boats last week and believe me what we worked out the possible profit was likely to be wouldn't even pay a one man bands wages!

 

The best DIY boats I see tend to be the ones that are more about the challenge of doing rather than the saving money ones that I find never get fully finished this is especially true of the living on it while building it brigade!

 

Saying that I have seen some nice DIY boats but they have all taken a while to do and in real terms not been a massive saving.

 

We have got one coming back this morning that left in a fully lined with electrics plumbing and heating done form a year ago. Out of interest I will have a look on it and see what it's like now it had about 3 or 4 weeks work from being a full fit when it left us.

 

 

Well I have just been and had a nosey on it and a year on its got the galley fitted but no cooker or hob and a shower enclosure in but not working, so that gives you a real example! The galley is a nice job but it turned out he paid someone to do it.

 

The main saving in a DIY project is you're own labour if you can provide that for free, (And consider very carefully if it is!) the chances of saving much or any money else where in the project are little.

 

You do need to be very realistic with the plan before you jump in.

Edited October 17, 2007 by Gary Peacock

[anthony]

I dont think any young couple in their thirties like ourselves from a working class background can slap down 60 grand and float away with a fully fitted narrowboat.

Even if we could get a boat of good quality built by a so called trades person. This no easy task itself judging from some of the work ive seen recently. So i just wouldnt want to spend money on someone else's effort when i could spend less and have a better quality finish doing a fair bit of it myself.

 

We dont all go out and buy new built homes do we? We dont all get someone to fit our carpets or put in a new bathroom or kitchen units.

 

I dont think in the long term the boat will cheaper but I know from experience no tradesman puts in 100% all the time which results in the customer putting it right themselves anyway.

 

I wonder how many people who bought a full fit boat are 100% happy?

Edited October 17, 2007 by anthony

[bottle]

SNIP>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

I wonder how many people who bought a full fit boat are 100% happy?

 

Anthony

 

If you decide to build your own boat I wish you well, in answer to the above, I wonder how many people that decided to fitout their own boat are 100% happy.

 

There are plenty of abandoned projects for sale.

[stuart]

There are plenty of abandoned projects for sale.

 

 

And you can get yourself a bargain, even if you have to rip out 50% of what they have done - at least you will probably have a box of parts that you can use like a shower, stove and cooker at half the price of new.

[anthony]

And you can get yourself a bargain, even if you have to rip out 50% of what they have done - at least you will probably have a box of parts that you can use like a shower, stove and cooker at half the price of new.

 

Sounds like a good idea where do you suggest i look?

[WJM]

"I dont think any young couple in their thirties-- can slap down 60 grand and float away"

 

Good job steel narrowboats are mortgagable then! You can borrow against their inherent value and your repayments should be an achievable outgoing.

[carlt]

Sounds like a good idea where do you suggest i ook?

Boats & outboards, apollo duck, ebay, all the usual suspects. All the brokers usually have at least one half-baked on the yard.