Longest time with the same berth. And how the cost of moorings have increase.

[Higgs]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

I have never been charged an access fee.

I receive my mooring bill but thats all.

 

Just as a matter of interest I don't receive a seperate bill for water, toilets, maintenance of roads or pontoons, staff salaries, etc - they are just the Marinas 'costs of doing business' alongside the NAA.

The NAA cost is exactly the same irrespective of the marina being full or empty - if it was paid as a seperate amount, & I was the only one in the marina, I could end up paying £100,000 per annum.

 

But you know, and I know, a licence is not valid on private property. The access fee is understandable. 

 

 

[kalees]

Again not long term morning but in 1991 for my 23ft Norman, I was moored alongside a farmers field, £20 a year CASH!

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Higgs said:

 

But you know, and I know, a licence is not valid on private property. The access fee is understandable. 

 

 

 

"A licence is not required on private property" - should that be amended to  " .............. unless the land owner requires it)

 

Do you have the same feelings about marinas that insist that any cars using their car park facilities must be 

Insure

Taxed

MOT'd

 

Surely non of those are (legally) 'required on private property'

[Higgs]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

"A licence is not required on private property" 

 

That's just a fact. 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

That's just a fact. 

 

 

 

And it is a FACT that if the landowner requires it, it is required.

[Higgs]

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

And it is a FACT that if the landowner requires it, it is required.

 

They are not the licensing or issuing authority. Small difference.

 

 

Edited February 23, 2021 by Higgs

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Higgs said:

 

They are not the licensing issuing authority. Small difference.

 

 

 

Are the marina the licensing authority for your car ?

[Higgs]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Are the marina the licensing authority for your car ?

 

Are marinas charged extra, to access the road, and add it to the mooring fee. 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

Are marinas charged extra, to access the road, and add it to the mooring fee. 

 

 

 

 

Yes.

They pay rates which includes the provision of roads, and, maintenance.

[Higgs]

12 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Yes.

They pay rates which includes the provision of roads, and, maintenance.

 

You don't need a car to have a mooring, or a car licence, etc.. If you have a car, it might only be a requirement of the marina insurance company, for a vehicle to have a licence, etc. Maintenance of roads in a marina are not the responsibility of councils. Maintenance of a marina is not an issue for CRT responsibility. And if it is all down to the marina, there is no need for the licence requirement to be specified in the NAA. It is obviously not taken as read, that the marina is responsible for making a licence a compulsory requirement. 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 23, 2021 by Higgs

[Alan de Enfield]

11 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

You don't need a car to have a mooring, or a car licence, etc.. If you have a car, it might only be a requirement of the marina insurance company, for a vehicle to have a licence, etc. Maintenance of roads in a marina are not the responsibility of councils. Maintenance of a marina is not an issue for CRT responsibility. And if it is all down to the marina, there is no need for the licence requirement to be specified in the NAA. It is obviously not taken as read, that the marina is responsible for making a licence a compulsory requirement. 

 

 

 

 

 

I think you are trying to extrapolate too many factors.

 

You don't need to own a boat to have a mooring - in which case you wouldn't need to have a licence either.

 

Much as it is all very interesting, I've a toilet to go and clean.

 

TTFN

[Higgs]

19 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

You don't need to own a boat to have a mooring - in which case you wouldn't need to have a licence either.

 

Basic truth: no boat, no mooring required. Access fee, to get access rights into another specific area. Accessed area requires licence. The idea is there of two separate areas and jurisdictions; of ownership and management. 

 

The only access fee required by the marina business is payment of a mooring fee. CRT do not stipulate that a boat needs a mooring. That was cleared up years ago. Of course, if we went back to the need to have a home mooring, the imposition of the requirement to have a licence on private property might be better appreciated. The removal of the freedom to choose - not to need the use of the canal and not being liable to pay for that non use. 

 

I leave you to your toilet cleaning. 

 

 

Edited February 23, 2021 by Higgs

[Arthur Marshall]

I think my first mooring was £300 a year on the farm. Back then there were no BW mooring charges, so that was it. Current farm mooring (no facilities)  is about £400 and another £600 to CRT, the latter which is still in my opinion a rip-off. If it's supposed to be based at half the local rates, it should be £200...

[Mike Todd]

2 hours ago, Higgs said:

 

But you know, and I know, a licence is not valid on private property. The access fee is understandable. 

 

 

It is up to every business to decide whether they bundle charges or separate out into a menu of options. In some contexts it can get quite complicated with the latter (see other thread about multiple licences in the East Anglia region). As with general taxation there will always be those who think that they can win out by not having to pay for specific services (eg not paying for schools if no children). However, they usually forget that the consequence will be that they then have to pay more for those which they do use.

 

I think that countries differ in their attitudes to this - the US seems to tend more towards the menu way of life (they are frequently allergic to anything that feels like community) whilst here I guess we tend to see it as sharp practice (aka hidden costs).

 

For me, I think that a marina that passed on its access charges as an extra to mooring feels like somewhere that will always be seeking to make unplanned extras out of its customers and thus to be avoided like the plague.

[Higgs]

8 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

For me, I think that a marina that passed on its access charges as an extra to mooring feels like somewhere that will always be seeking to make unplanned extras out of its customers and thus to be avoided like the plague.

 

How would you feel about an access fee into every marina being imposed on each licence fee payer, on any particular stretch of canal authority. ??

 

 

Edited February 23, 2021 by Higgs

[Midnight]

On 22/02/2021 at 11:34, Mac of Cygnet said:

 

Of course as moorings officer you can charge yourself what you like!  (That was a joke, BTW.  I'm sure everything is absolutely above board).  Makes me wish I'd taken up your invitation to moor there a few years ago.

It's still on offer as membership is still open despite covid and there's no short boats on the waiting list just now.

Edited February 23, 2021 by Midnight

[Ex Brummie]

5 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I think my first mooring was £300 a year on the farm. Back then there were no BW mooring charges, so that was it. Current farm mooring (no facilities)  is about £400 and another £600 to CRT, the latter which is still in my opinion a rip-off. If it's supposed to be based at half the local rates, it should be £200...

But Arthur, they base it on their local mooring fee, not what people pay to private owners. If CaRT have no local on or off line moorings, then they can make up a theoretical charge. Either way, you have no right of appeal to their demand.

ETA. Our Club rents a mooring 'ransom strip' from CaRT, which forms the basis of the Club charges. Fortunately the lease, like for many Clubs, is well protected in terms of increases.

Edited February 23, 2021 by Ex Brummie

[Arthur Marshall]

22 minutes ago, Ex Brummie said:

But Arthur, they base it on their local mooring fee, not what people pay to private owners. If CaRT have no local on or off line moorings, then they can make up a theoretical charge. Either way, you have no right of appeal to their demand.

ETA. Our Club rents a mooring 'ransom strip' from CaRT, which forms the basis of the Club charges. Fortunately the lease, like for many Clubs, is well protected in terms of increases.

I know. It's still a con! It's supposed to be based on the local going rate, which, assuming market forces apply (as we all know they do) should converge to the mean. Their calculation reckons thry could charge, for a towpath mooring with no facilities, £1200 a year in sn area where they are available for a third of that. 

I don't argue - we all know it was always a way to up their income while not increasing license fees by the same amount.

[Mike Todd]

19 hours ago, Higgs said:

 

How would you feel about an access fee into every marina being imposed on each licence fee payer, on any particular stretch of canal authority. ??

 

 

That is nowhere near what I was talking about. You are in danger of re awakening your hobby horse!

[Higgs]

Just now, Mike Todd said:

That is nowhere near what I was talking about. You are in danger of re awakening your hobby horse!

 

It's always awake, I just let it be, until I feel like resurrecting it. 

 

 

[Mike Todd]

13 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I know. It's still a con! It's supposed to be based on the local going rate, which, assuming market forces apply (as we all know they do) should converge to the mean. Their calculation reckons thry could charge, for a towpath mooring with no facilities, £1200 a year in sn area where they are available for a third of that. 

I don't argue - we all know it was always a way to up their income while not increasing license fees by the same amount.

Median?