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Jp3 reduction box oil seal


sparrowcycles
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Hi again folks. 

 

I am finally rebuilding the reduction box on Prince as all the bearings were rumbling badly. I have it apart now and would like to replace the output shaft oil seals while I'm at it. 

In the manual they are listed as 'weston seals' 

My question is, are there any better seals available now that might be more ideal to fit? And if so does anyone know the part number or codes for them?

 

I can hopefully order standard replacements from sleeman hawken but thought I'd ask here first if any better options existed. 

 

Thanks! 

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We much prefer to fit the old style metal cased leather seals (AKA Weston seals) over modern lip seals. They're a bit more tolerant about dirt, damaged shafts and so on

 

We've probably got them in stock

 

Richard 

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18 minutes ago, RLWP said:

We much prefer to fit the old style metal cased leather seals (AKA Weston seals) over modern lip seals. They're a bit more tolerant about dirt, damaged shafts and so on

 

We've probably got them in stock

 

Richard 

Great, thanks! I will call you today to discuss. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Could I join in on this thread,as I have taken the opportunity of Ribble getting a new bottom to take her reduction gear to bits, to do exactly the same thing?

 

Not only was she rumbling terribly, but was pouring oil out of the reduction box, with a final drive shaft that wobbled  with about 1/4 inch play!

 

I don't know why I didn't think of asking here about spares, and have got a local bearing supplier searching for replacement bearings, and the oil seals.

 

So far, they've found a manufacturer that will make the Weston seals to order for £31 a go. Is this an OK price?

 

Having got the output shaft out, it took a day to get it apart. Here are the bits:

 

IMG_1037.jpg.9cf4d17adcc11ba4135b80312ff96359.jpg

 

I can't show the shaft as I'm not allowed to upload more than 2.93mb,but I think it looks ok.

 

I'd like some advice on putting it all back together. Both bearings, and the large gear were a hellishly tight interference fit, and whilst I got them off,I'm going to need an engineers shop to put them back on. My question is : do they all need to be that tight a fit? If not all, which ones do?

 

 

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Thanks,OptedOut.

They came off with a hammer and a drift. I didn't like to mention it in case I offended anyone with engineering sensibilities - so I was thinking of asking someone with a hydraulic press to put them back on.

But if I can't find a press, I could look out some scaffolding tube and a heavy hammer.

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3 minutes ago, DRP said:

Thanks,OptedOut.

They came off with a hammer and a drift. I didn't like to mention it in case I offended anyone with engineering sensibilities - so I was thinking of asking someone with a hydraulic press to put them back on.

But if I can't find a press, I could look out some scaffolding tube and a heavy hammer.

Ask as your local garages, most need a bearing press.

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Thanks for that suggestion,Tony. Garages hadn't occurred to me.

 

Now that the completion of this job is in sight, I'm just a bit inhibited by the thought of breaking something irreplaceable.

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"But if I can't find a press, I could look out some scaffolding tube and a heavy hammer."

 

Whatever method you use make sure force is only applied to the appropriate race of the bearings, inner race when fitting to shaft, outer race when fitting to housing. i.e. try not to channel any force through balls or rollers.

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3 hours ago, DRP said:

 

So far, they've found a manufacturer that will make the Weston seals to order for £31 a go. Is this an OK price?

If you want to get a few made Id happily buy one or two if they have the leather seal rather than a rubber/nitrile. Just let us know

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I think the £31 is the pre-VAT price. I'm waiting for the supplier to come back to me about the thrust bearing and the roller bearing before I put the order in.

 

They say the lead time on the Weston seals,with leather business end is 2-3 days.I'm happy to order some extra for anyone who wants them (- but not seeking to undermine anyone's trade).

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  • 4 weeks later...

Ribble's reduction gear is now back together and safely re-installed.

At risk of hi-jacking this thread, I thought I might add some notes that might be helpful to anyone doing the same job for the first time.

If anyone more expert disagrees with anything, please feel free to say - and Moderators please delete the lot if you think it's a waste of time.

 

The anatomy of a Short boat means you have to do this job semi-bent-double, under the fuel tank.I took this picture after the job was done, but you get the idea.

IMG_1076.jpg

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If my experience is typical, it's a good idea to clear out all the water, oil and slime in the engine bilge, because if your box is as worn as mine, you get an explosion of bits of bearing and little rollers when it all comes apart. You can fish for them blind in the sludge and slime if you prefer.

I was warned that when it comes apart, the shaft, casting and gear is heavy, so make provision to take the weight.

After draining the oil (not really an issue as the seals had been inoperative for years), and disconnecting prop shaft couplings, the shaft pushed out of the way giving lots of room.

 

IMG_1027.JPG

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12 minutes ago, DRP said:

Ribble's reduction gear is now back together and safely re-installed.

At risk of hi-jacking this thread, I thought I might add some notes that might be helpful to anyone doing the same job for the first time.

If anyone more expert disagrees with anything, please feel free to say - and Moderators please delete the lot if you think it's a waste of time.

 

The anatomy of a Short boat means you have to do this job semi-bent-double, under the fuel tank.I took this picture after the job was done, but you get the idea.

 I for one would welcome any help or notes you have! If you wanted to start a new thread or here would be fine with me....maybe a new thread might be easier for the search facility to find for future reference.

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I think you're right Frangar, but to quote a famous quizmaster,"I've started, so . . ."

 

After undoing the small dome-headed studs, and the large dome nuts, the casting that holds everything loosened easily, and the whole thing pulled out.

 

I must emphasise it really is heavy, and despite the rope on the shaft to take the weight, the whole thing tried to plummet into the bilge, while little rollers flew everywhere.

 

Leaving a view of the empty casing, with assorted sludge, and bits of worn out bearings.

 

IMG_1029.JPG

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The whole heavy lump then went home to be worked on at a bench.

 

Dismantling is described earlier in this thread. All the bearings were taken to George Lodge of Hull, who measured them and supplied replacements.

 

They also obtained "bespoke" leather oil seals from Autospin of Birmingham.

 

After the event, Sparrowcycles kindly let me have the relevant pages from the Lister workshop manual.

 

This shows the inner bearing on the output shaft to be a ball bearing, but mine was a roller bearing so that's what I used.

 

IMG_20201113_192619.jpg.ec32108674fe8cc8705e85041bfa7ad7.jpg

IMG_20201113_192521.jpg.0d116392b02861a353665fa2029c2dc4.jpg

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Whilst waiting for the new bearings, I got Direct Gaskets Limited of Hull to make up a set of new gaskets.

 

Then after cleaning up and re painting the castings, reassembly.

 

The shaft oil seals go in first. A press fit - well, cover with a piece of wood and a gentle hammer tap.

Put the shaft through, and fit the new large (and shockingly expensive) thrust bearing.A hydraulic press would have been nice, but the inside of the old bearing used as a drift, and careful tapping of a length of angle iron placed over this allowed the bearing to be fitted.

Don't forget the gasket before bolting this to the main casting.

The large gear had been the very devil to remove, and a trial fitting suggested it would be a struggle to re-fit.

However 10 minutes on the "cool" plate of the AGA (other ranges are available), and it slipped home with only a couple of gentle taps with a hammer.

The roller bearing went on easily, as did the retaining nut and a new split pin.

IMG_1064.JPG

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Refitting the whole thing was less dramatic than the taking apart.

The unworn new inner roller bearing has a brass cage that stops the rollers falling out, so the outer ring is placed in its housing first.

The gasket was hung on the upper stud and on the four large bolts that go through the gearbox.

The small bearing on the gearbox output shaft is not fitted until the large gear shaft and casting are bolted into place.

I had expert help to do this - it would be a hellish job to do single-handed.

Note that the upper pair of large bolts require you to remove the gearbox cover to tighten them.

If,for any reason, you remove the lower two large bolts, don't lose the thick spacer washers between the gearbox and the reduction gear casing.

After all this, it's a relief to add SAE50 oil, and re-connect the prop shaft.

In Ribble's case, all this has been done whilst she's on the slipway having her bottom done, so the engine alignment will need checking when she goes back in the water.

IMG_1077.jpg

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You did it in a far simpler way than me! 

I took the whole box off to replace the large bearing on the gearbox output shaft, getting that gear off was a nightmare. 

 

I see your reduction box water jacket is connected, mine isn't and I was hoping to to try it and see if it reduces the general gearbox noise. 

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I think I'm going in the opposite direction. The bearings were so terribly worn in mine, that members of the Kennet crew who came to "have a go " on Ribble complained of a harsh grumbling from the gearbox; we hadn't noticed as it hadn't changed since we took it over(!). So I'm looking forward to a quieter life for a different reason.

I haven't heard any of the Lister experts I know say it makes it quieter - in fact most have said things like "you don't really need that for canal use; it never gets hot enough."

Mind you, they said that about the compression ratio knobs, "You're never working it hard enough on the canal; It might be worth trying them on the river".

We did try them on the river. Didn't go any better, but produced vast amounts of smoke - so we closed them again and haven't undone them since!

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1 hour ago, DRP said:

I think I'm going in the opposite direction. The bearings were so terribly worn in mine, that members of the Kennet crew who came to "have a go " on Ribble complained of a harsh grumbling from the gearbox; we hadn't noticed as it hadn't changed since we took it over(!). So I'm looking forward to a quieter life for a different reason.

I haven't heard any of the Lister experts I know say it makes it quieter - in fact most have said things like "you don't really need that for canal use; it never gets hot enough."

Mind you, they said that about the compression ratio knobs, "You're never working it hard enough on the canal; It might be worth trying them on the river".

We did try them on the river. Didn't go any better, but produced vast amounts of smoke - so we closed them again and haven't undone them since!

My reduction box is hooked up to the cooling circuit....I dont think it masks any noise....all the boxes whine when in reverse but should be pretty quiet in ahead. I do use my changeover valves all the time...start on high with them screwed in and screw them out when running...even on the Oxford etc..does smoke a little at tick over but is fine when running....find a good blast on a river helps to keep everything running clean...we do shoot sparks out in tunnels tho!!...and I think I will need to scrape the silencer out this service.

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OK, now the major worries are nearly sorted out (I spared you the frightening tale of the accidental discovery of the failed water intake seacock - AFTER we'd spent a day on the river Aire getting to Knottingley),perhaps I'll have a better look at these valves when the weather improves.

 

If someone commented on this, I think i could post a picture, but at present the site won't let me upload any more.

 

 

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9 hours ago, DRP said:

OK, now the major worries are nearly sorted out (I spared you the frightening tale of the accidental discovery of the failed water intake seacock - AFTER we'd spent a day on the river Aire getting to Knottingley),perhaps I'll have a better look at these valves when the weather improves.

 

If someone commented on this, I think i could post a picture, but at present the site won't let me upload any more.

 

 

Im happy to comment!....Do you know if the gasket company still have the designs for your gasket set on file? Roughly how much was it to get the set made?....Id be interested in a set of those too!

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I don't know if they kept a record, but I'll check with them.

 

Here is the horrible old seacock, and the  dissolved iron coupling flange . 

 

Ever felt you'd just dodged a bullet?

Image 08-12-2020 at 09.50.jpg

Image 08-12-2020 at 09.50 (1).jpg

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