Juno - time for refurbishment

[magpie patrick]

Like many of my clients, I'm taking lockdown as an opportunity to do some long term planning. Having sold Lutine Bell last year (to someone who had a plan to do her up properly) the only boat I currently have is Juno (If you exclude Purpley, the kayak currently awaiting collection and Oakdene, the 8 foot car top dinghy in dad's garage...) - Juno is a Viking 23 approx 30 years old.

 

I've owned Juno for over ten years, but ill health and the Lutine adventure means she hasn't done much for the last 8 other than act as a (very much loved) summer house in a beautiful location. No obvious funds for a good quality narrowboat on the horizon the plan for the next five years is to refurbish Juno - this isn't so much an internal refurb, although that could do with attention, it's to get her capable of trouble free travel.

 

Two things - engine and gas - the scale of Juno makes these more manageable than a narrow boat and also I don't have other issues to contend with, no rotting bulkheads or leaking roof for example (yes the window seals leak, but that's a weekend job). 

 

Existing engine is a Yamaha 9.9 long-leg. The engine that came with Juno was the same one but short-leg, and had a major backfire problem I just couldn't fix - that was sold for spares and replaced with this, second hand on ebay in a private sale from a guy in Havant.

 

Basic issues, the long-leg is not clever on the canals, although my five year plan involves more river than canal, and the start button is on the engine, which is six feet from the steering wheel, nuisance if it stalls for any reason. That's before we come to reliability. The last long run was several years ago going to Crofton and back, since which she hasn't been through a lock. The water cooling is unreliable (as has been discussed on these pages) and advice from the guy in Stroud who refurbished the engine last time was that early years in salt water had caused some corrosion. The engine is about 35 years old, and the first guy to service it in Bath commented "not used much", the guy in Stroud reckons "used a lot, not much serviced" and suggested I don't push my luck with anything too adventurous - since then she's pottered along the Dundas pound but not left it, and the cooling has always been a bit of a concern.

 

So if I want five years trouble free boating a new outboard is in order. What do the team suggest? Likely cruising ground is Thames, Broads, possibly Yorkshire Waterways - Leeds and Liverpool, (Juno is trailable) very unlikely to attempt anything like the Solent or the Humber, although I guess the Ribble Link is a possibility. New or nearly-new second hand with warranty preferred. I don't want something I can fix, I want something that won't need fixing. What should I budget? 

 

Second - no gas system. In her current role not a problem - eat out, have a bankside BBQ, go home or to the local swimming baths for a shower. This won't cut it for a 2-3 week voyage though, so water heater and small cooker required. The only part of the gas system on board is the locker! I removed the rest as it was non-compliant for BSS purposes - the pipes were embedded in the fibreglass...

 

Again, what should I budget? 

Nothing is going to happen much until later this year or early next, but I'd welcome thoughts, especially on how many pieces of silver I need to spend.

Thanks all!

[Alan de Enfield]

OB Leg length is critical to boat handling and performance, you cannot just 'swap' a short for a long and expect the boat to handle.

 

Do you know if the original 'short' was correct, or, maybe it had replaced a 'long'  because the 'long' was broken and the 'short' was on ebay and cheap.

 

Before going out to buy make sure you know which length you need, there are now Xtra short, Vlong  and Xtra long in addition to 'short' and 'long'.

 

Your cavitation plate should be +/- 1" of the bottom of the transom (ideally exactly level)

 

 

 

 

£1500+ will get you a brand spanking new 9.8hp with a 'high charge' (12 amps) alternator.

 

https://www.findafishingboat.com/tohatsu-mfs9-8-high-thrust-outboard-motor/ad-69738

 

Or

 

https://www.findafishingboat.com/tohatsu-4-stroke-engines-2-5hp-250hp/ad-109031

 

 

 

With a standard 3-4amp alternator you may (will) struggle to get much charge into your domestic batteries - not a problem on a day-boat, but if cruising for a few weeks you will need to have lights on, charge phone, computer, water pumps, TV etc etc 

 

 

Edited May 22, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[magpie patrick]

41 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

OB Leg length is critical to boat handling and performance, you cannot just 'swap' a short for a long and expect the boat to handle.

 

Good info thanks - next time I get to the boat I shall measure the depth of the transom - I have little doubt that the current engine has too long a leg, although it has never been on the river so handling has tended to be constrained by other factors anyway (like the skeg dragging the bottom, which also contributes to the cooling problem

 

44 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

£1500+ will get you a brand spanking new 9.8hp with a 'high charge' (12 amps) alternator.

 

https://www.findafishingboat.com/tohatsu-mfs9-8-high-thrust-outboard-motor/ad-69738

 

Or

 

https://www.findafishingboat.com/tohatsu-4-stroke-engines-2-5hp-250hp/ad-109031

 

That's impressive, and between half and two thirds what I thought I might have to pay

 

Battery charging is an issue up to a point, but most cruising is likely to be in long summer days and I'm an early bird at both ends of the day - I almost literally never turn the lights on at home in summer. Main thing will be recharging the phone and running the water pump, and I guess the latter is much the most power-hungry. Juno's fridge works but I don't run it, I just use it as a cool box. 

[Mad Harold]

I bought my present boat,a Norman mainly because it had a new Tohatsu

outboard and a new canopy (the two most expensive items on a yoghurtpot)

The bill the previous owner showed me for the outboard was for £2000 but included new morse control cables and a new fuel tank.

The last outboard boat I had was powered by a Yamaha 9.9 but was the permanantly locked down type and although the boat would float over obstructions,the outboard leg and prop was prone to damage.

My present Tohatsu has features that are very desirable on canals, ie,the outboard leg is free to click up into three or four shallow water positions as it has some sort of ratchet mechanism when in fwd gear,and locks in the down position when in reverse or neutral.Very necessary on our lovely "deep"canals.

I would suspect you will need the longshaft model outboard as most cruisers over 20ft do,but you will need to check this.

The Tohatsu is a peach of an engine,smooth,and whisper quiet and as they have through the prop exhaust,extra thrust is generated.

Mine is the 8hp model and although I havn't yet given it full power on a river yet,opening it up on a wide bit of canal very briefly,I saw 10kts on the Sumlog before throttling back to a sensible speed.I think there was more speed to come but that will have to wait untill I get onto a river.

If you can get the model with a pull start as well as electric,then a flat battery is no problem.

 

[magpie patrick]

Sounds like Tohatsu then... I'll be researching them

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

Sounds like Tohatsu then... I'll be researching them

That's why I gave you the links - we have a Tohatsu for the tender on the "Big-Cat", its an old 2T but has proved to be very reliable.

The trick with all OBs is that if you are not using it for a couple of days turn off the fuel and allow it to run dry. Evaporating fuel in the carb bowl can cause 'varnish like stuff' to block jets.

 

The most expensive to repair, and most unreliable are Suzuki.

Never had a small Yamaha but in 50hp+ they have always been good.

Johnson & Evinrude, 'agricultural' clunky but reliable.

 

Had a pair of twin Evinrude 50's on a Sea fishing boat, great engines, the only problem was when one caught fire - the lifting eye broke off and fell down onto the starter motor cable giving a lovely short straight to the battery. Managed to limp back about 10 miles on one engine.

 

 

Edited May 22, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[magpie patrick]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

That's why I gave you the links

Thanks Alan, I've been looking at them - trying to rein my enthusiasm in as they look just the job but purchase is a few months off yet. 

Next spring, when a Tohatsu is pushing Juno along the river Avon, I shall raise a glass to you 

 

All the other info much appreciated as well, like running the carburetor dry - once I've got a decent reliable outboard then keeping it on good order will be a priority!

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

Thanks Alan, I've been looking at them - trying to rein my enthusiasm in as they look just the job but purchase is a few months off yet. 

Next spring, when a Tohatsu is pushing Juno along the river Avon, I shall raise a glass to you 

 

All the other info much appreciated as well, like running the carburetor dry - once I've got a decent reliable outboard then keeping it on good order will be a priority!

Try asking the dealer for a PX price (I notice on one of the links I gave that they take PX)

You maybe won't get as much as you would with a private sale, but its a lot less hassle, and, you don't feel guilty about selling an unreliable engine to some poor 'sucker'.

[WotEver]

3 hours ago, magpie patrick said:

once I've got a decent reliable outboard then keeping it on good order will be a priority!

Preventing it from being nicked being the main priority

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Preventing it from being nicked being the main priority

 

https://www.force4.co.uk/department/engines-inboard-outboard/engine-locks

[Mad Harold]

1 hour ago, WotEver said:

Preventing it from being nicked being the main priority

A plain outboard cover helps so that scrotes can't see what sort it is.

Regardless of what thiefproofing stuff you fit,some use a 12v angle grinder to cut the engine out of the transom.

Get a really evil dog?

A tip from someone on this forum was to paint the outboard in some garish colour to make it harder for thieves to sell.

I couldn't do that to a brand new outboard!!!

Edited May 22, 2020 by Mad Harold

[magpie patrick]

1 hour ago, Mad Harold said:

A tip from someone on this forum was to paint the outboard in some garish colour to make it harder for thieves to sell.

I couldn't do that to a brand new outboard!!!

I have two god sons and their mum who would delight in painting my outboard - it's end up army camouflage (the boys) and with big hippy flowers (mum)....

 

Will it invalidate the warranty I wonder.... 

[ditchcrawler]

3 hours ago, WotEver said:

Preventing it from being nicked being the main priority

https://www.norfolk.police.uk/sites/norfolk/files/outboard_engine_cover_poster.pdf

[Mad Harold]

2 hours ago, magpie patrick said:

I have two god sons and their mum who would delight in painting my outboard - it's end up army camouflage (the boys) and with big hippy flowers (mum)....

 

Will it invalidate the warranty I wonder.... 

You have just reminded me,I have most of a 2ltr tin of British army olive drab matt paint in the garage from when I had an Armstrong MT motorbike.

Perhaps painting the  outboard with this plus the boat name and reg in white may deter thieves.

[1st ade]

13 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

https://www.norfolk.police.uk/sites/norfolk/files/outboard_engine_cover_poster.pdf

I worked with Essex police on a similar scheme - again, very successful.

 

There's quite a deterrence to scrotes in knowing that they will have to source a new cover. And, while they can run the engine without a cover it's an easy spot for the police "Excuse me Sir, notice you're cruising with the engine cover off. Have you broken down, can we assist? can we look at the serial number while we're here?"

[BilgePump]

Small Yamaha outboards have always been decent for me, touch wood. Currently just using a forty year old 5hp on the canal but have had a 1980s 30hp, a 1990 8hp and bought a 25 (four stroke) and 5 brand new early 2000s on the sea, treated those two with less than suitable respect for years and they were superb engines. Have had others (old Mariner, Tomos, Seagull, Johnson, Mercury, new Honda) only ones really jinxed by were two Suzukis, one an immaculate 2007ish 4 stroke 15hp a few years ago that couldn't be fixed for love nor money. Its failure had been the reason for the previous owners selling boat package. Selling it to someone more mechanically minded for spares gave enough cash back for me to get an older but running Mariner and some other boaty bits. Never had a Tohatsu but friends who have had the big ones are ardent fans and they seem like excellent quality motors.

 

Do check and double check your transom height before buying an engine, new or secondhand, as the leg length is crucial as shown in AdE's post. Long leg smallish engines seem a lot harder to come by used as many will have been for dinghies and short leg. Both the Shetland 536 and 570 needed long leg engines. A short leg small engine thrown hard to port or starboard could actually clip the transom with the prop, not an inspiring sound.

 

Sadly, as pointed out by others, the ease of nicking an outboard is trivial. Saw that Aldi have their cordless range back in stock so that's about £75 for a cordless angle grinder. Not suggesting that you push your luck with something old and unreliable on say the Ribble link but wouldn't instantly dismiss a good quality, well maintained, slightly older and less valuable engine along with a smaller similar quality backup.

[Alan de Enfield]

13 minutes ago, BilgePump said:

Sadly, as pointed out by others, the ease of nicking an outboard is trivial

Sad to say these days it is easy to break into any boat.

 

Whilst it doesn't recompense for the anger, annoyance and inconvenience your insurance policy will cover you IF you have secured it to the transom by an approved security device.

It they cut out your transom then your insurance will cover the rebuild or right-off your boat.

 

From my insurance :

 

What is not covered:
• Loss or damage due to wear and tear, depreciation, gradual deterioration, or mildew.
• Theft from the interior of “Sea Wolf” or place of storage ashore unless following forcible and violent entry, or theft of gear and equipment from the exterior of the
boat unless violence and force are used.
• Loss or damage resulting from electrolysis, osmosis or similar conditions.
• Loss or damage to motors, electrics, batteries and their connections unless directly caused by “Sea Wolf” grounding or sinking (provided not due to a cause
excluded within this policy), or by fire, contact with an external substance (other than water), malicious damage, theft, sudden accidental incursion of water
following an identifiable and unexpected occurrence, dropping off or falling overboard of outboard motors, or by frost (providing all manufacturer’s
recommendations have been followed).
• Theft of outboard motors whilst attached to “Sea Wolf” or her tender(s) unless securely locked by an anti-theft device which prevents retaining bolts or clamps
being undone, and unless you can supply the engine serial number.
• Loss of or damage to consumable stores or moorings.
• Protective covers more than 3 years old split by the wind or blown away.
• The cost of making good any defect in repair or maintenance, or replacing or renewing any defective part, or making good any fault or error in design or
construction.
• Claims for loss of use of “Sea Wolf”.
• Where “Sea Wolf” (or her tender) is fitted with a kill cord, we will not pay for any loss or damage caused by loss of control where a kill cord is fitted but has not
been used.

[ditchcrawler]

3 hours ago, 1st ade said:

I worked with Essex police on a similar scheme - again, very successful.

 

There's quite a deterrence to scrotes in knowing that they will have to source a new cover. And, while they can run the engine without a cover it's an easy spot for the police "Excuse me Sir, notice you're cruising with the engine cover off. Have you broken down, can we assist? can we look at the serial number while we're here?"

Talking to one of the Broad Beat officers, they were of the opinion that outboards were mainly stolen and exported, not for own use. So to sell on they would need to buy a new engine cover. They were not interested in flogging them on the street corners. From intelligence they had and what they had fond was that they were all stashed in a container somewhere until they had a load and then shipped out. 

13 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Sad to say these days it is easy to break into any boat.

 

Whilst it doesn't recompense for the anger, annoyance and inconvenience your insurance policy will cover you IF you have secured it to the transom by an approved security device.

It they cut out your transom then your insurance will cover the rebuild or right-off your boat.

 

Like the poor bugger on the Nene where they just chopped his transom out and let the boat sink

[Alan de Enfield]

The policy for the Cat states :

 

Your Insurers will not pay for:
1.4 theft or attempted theft:
1.4.1 the theft or attempted theft of gear, equipment, Personal
Effects, Specified Equipment or Machinery from
Your Craft or from a locked storage place Ashore
where:
i) there are no visible signs of forcible and violent
entry to or exit from Your Craft, a locked cabin or
locker or locked storage place; or
ii) the item was not securely fastened to Your Craft
and the removal of this has not caused visible
damage to Your Craft; or
iii) the item has not been physically unscrewed from
Your Craft, leaving its fixings, or evidence of its
fixings, visibly in place; or
iv) violence is not threatened or used against You or
any other person associated with Your Craft or
other Insured Property;
1.4.2 the theft or attempted theft of Your outboard motors if
they are stolen from Your Craft, and any resultant
damage to Your Craft where the outboard motors were
not securely fastened to Your Craft by an outboard
motor lock as well as their normal fitting device. An
outboard motor lock is a device specifically designed,
marketed and sold as a secure method to prevent theft of
Your outboard motors;
1.4.3 the theft or attempted theft of Your outboard motors if
they are stolen from Your Craft where the only method
of security is a padlock and chain;
1.4.4 the theft of Your outboard motor where the serial
number and outboard details have not been prior
provided to Your Insurers.

[magpie patrick]

My insurance stipulates an outboard lock, I have one, if I have a new engine I might get a better one, at the moment anyone pinching the engine would solve a problem (what to do with the old engine) 

 

I had wondered if there were reliable outboard alarms that would sound if AND ONLY IF the outboard is interfered with

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, magpie patrick said:

My insurance stipulates an outboard lock, I have one, if I have a new engine I might get a better one, at the moment anyone pinching the engine would solve a problem (what to do with the old engine) 

 

I had wondered if there were reliable outboard alarms that would sound if AND ONLY IF the outboard is interfered with

I had an alarm for a roof rack on the car, if it was cut it sounded the car's horn. But if you have an alarm will anyone hear it or do anything

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, magpie patrick said:

My insurance stipulates an outboard lock, I have one, if I have a new engine I might get a better one, at the moment anyone pinching the engine would solve a problem (what to do with the old engine) 

 

I had wondered if there were reliable outboard alarms that would sound if AND ONLY IF the outboard is interfered with

 

Could you modify a "Rape Alarm" or a can of "Pepper Spray" ?

[magpie patrick]

1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

I had an alarm for a roof rack on the car, if it was cut it sounded the car's horn. But if you have an alarm will anyone hear it or do anything

At Juno's normal mooring (private water on the Coal Canal) there are enough people around, even in the middle of the night, to make someone think twice about trying to get off the boat, with outboard, with an alarm sounding. Juno is also moored nose in which makes getting the outboard off without moving the boat almost impossible, although I suppose a getaway dinghy is an option. 

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

Maybe this would do the job if you could attach the sensors between the engine and the hull https://www.tiiwee.com/collections/home-alarm-kits/products/tiiwee-a1-home-alarm-system-wireless-kit-1-siren-2-window-door-sensors-and-1-remote-control

[BilgePump]

On 23/05/2020 at 10:19, Alan de Enfield said:

Sad to say these days it is easy to break into any boat.

 

Whilst it doesn't recompense for the anger, annoyance and inconvenience your insurance policy will cover you IF you have secured it to the transom by an approved security device.

It they cut out your transom then your insurance will cover the rebuild or right-off your boat.

That's what my dad thought when they cut the Johnson 40 off our little 16' cabin boat in the early eighties. Insurance were fine and paid out for engine theft and boat written off. Problem was my mum spent it on on a video recorder and stereo!