private mooring fees?

[Higgs]

3 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

Yes, that's what everybody - including you it seems - agree on.

 

And that's where your argument falls down.  The boaters DO have several other options, as has been explained to you at length over the years.

 

And that's the other bit where you are wrong.  The marina can ask what they like of the boaters.  If the boaters don't like the terms offered then they are free not to moor in that particular marina.

 

Ok, it's a business deal. Nothing to with a boat licence legality. It can't do, there is no legality in the marina.

 

I'm not asking for a list of marinas. Assume I don't have a boat.

 

The marina can ask what it wants. Who's arguing that they can't? I'm not. I'm just saying, they don't have the legal authority to do anything but write their terms and conditions. I suppose they could ask everyone to have a driving licence, and a picture of Donald Trump. None of those, however, would have help them get a business. That is the difference. If I raid your bank account, and can get away with it, give it to CRT - it's a no brainer. It means I have a business.

 

 

 

[tree monkey]

Just now, Higgs said:

 

Ok, it's a business deal. Nothing to with a boat licence legality. It can't do, there is no legality in the marina.

 

I'm not asking for a list of marinas. Assume I don't have a boat.

 

The marina can ask what it wants. Who's arguing that they can't? I'm not. I'm just saying, they don't have the legal authority to do anything but write their terms and conditions. I suppose they could ask everyone to have a driving licence, and a picture of Donald Trump. None of those, however, would have help them get a business. That is the difference. If I raid your bank account, and can get away with it, give it to CRT - it's a no brainer. It means I have a business.

 

 

 

But in this case it does, without it it's just a pond in a field

[Higgs]

Just now, tree monkey said:

But in this case it does, without it it's just a pond in a field

 

£12.50

[tree monkey]

Just now, Higgs said:

 

£12.50

Still too rich for me

[Higgs]

1 minute ago, tree monkey said:

Still too rich for me

 

Work hard, you'll get there.

 

 

[tree monkey]

Just now, Higgs said:

 

Work hard, you'll get there.

 

 

I have all my life, problem Is i work in an undervalued industry 

[Higgs]

1 minute ago, tree monkey said:

I have all my life, problem Is i work in an undervalued industry 

 

Craftwork?

 

 

[TheBiscuits]

9 minutes ago, Higgs said:

The marina can ask what it wants. Who's arguing that they can't? I'm not. I'm just saying, they don't have the legal authority to do anything but write their terms and conditions. I suppose they could ask everyone to have a driving licence, and a picture of Donald Trump. 

Correct.  They may have spotted a valuable gap in the moorings market for Trump fans that like to drive, and therefore set their T&C's to restrict customers to people of a like mind.

 

9 minutes ago, Higgs said:

None of those, however, would have help them get a business. That is the difference. 

You've skipped a bit again.   If their USP is to be the preferred moorings of the "Drivers For Donald" fan club, then their T&Cs form a crucial part of their business model. 

 

How is this different to deciding that their customers would prefer to have access to the canal?  How is this different to deciding to build such a marina somewhere that does not join CRT waters - along the Bridgewater Canal for instance, or on the coast?

 

 

[Higgs]

10 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

You've skipped a bit again.   If their USP is to be the preferred moorings of the "Drivers For Donald" fan club, then their T&Cs form a crucial part of their business model. 

 

How is this different to deciding that their customers would prefer to have access to the canal?  How is this different to deciding to build such a marina somewhere that does not join CRT waters - along the Bridgewater Canal for instance, or on the coast?

 

 

 

The point was to the illustrate what we all know the marinas can do. So we can dispense with the pursuance of the Donald theme. We all know that boaters use marinas because boats float - somewhere. There's one main route to the marina and it is CRT's natural monopoly. Not much point having cars, if there are no roads.  The chicken and egg road. An industrial beginning and reason for the canals to exist, and not because CRT exists as an entity.

 

There is no reason that boats should not be afforded the provision of what is a SORN for cars. If you come back to the business reason, the only thing that could be concluded is - business is the aim, and what has to be done to gain that opportunity. Don't forget, CRT are not giving anything away for free. Even dispensing with the licence fee, in a marina, CRT are still making money from moorers. 9% .   Profit, not any essentially moral or ethical compulsion. We know that the licence is not legally necessary, in a marina. And don't start batting around the marina's T&Cs. The licence is not a marina's invention.

 

So, why not a Standard Offline Notification? A SON. A canal is a road, and the marina is as private as anyone's driveway. Offline.

 

 

Edited March 18, 2020 by Higgs

[MtB]

2 hours ago, Higgs said:

So, why not a Standard Offline Notification? A SON. A canal is a road, and the marina is as private as anyone's driveway. Offline.

 

An excellent suggestion, illustrating you accept there is a need for a SON scheme to be introduced.

 

And given you accept the need for a SON scheme to be introduced, you must accept that a licence is currently necessary or a SON would not be needed.

 

I suspect we have reached a consensus! 

 

 

 

 

[Higgs]

4 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

An excellent suggestion, illustrating you accept there is a need for a SON scheme to be introduced.

 

And given you accept the need for a SON scheme to be introduced, you must accept that a licence is currently necessary or a SON would not be needed.

 

I suspect we have reached a consensus! 

 

 

No. You accept that the marina is private.

 

 

 

Edited March 18, 2020 by Higgs

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

No. You accept that the marina is private.

 

 

 

 

Which marina?

 

 

[Higgs]

2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Which marina?

 

 

Any not associated with CRT. Like those of BWML, if that's correct, and they still exist.

 

 

Edited March 18, 2020 by Higgs

[Mike Todd]

4 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

An excellent suggestion, illustrating you accept there is a need for a SON scheme to be introduced.

 

And given you accept the need for a SON scheme to be introduced, you must accept that a licence is currently necessary or a SON would not be needed.

 

I suspect we have reached a consensus! 

 

 

 

 

Look at the Middle Level thread. You will see that MLC have adopted a rebate scheme. in such n case However, it does involve you in accepting the principle that you currently reject!

[Jim Riley]

10 hours ago, Higgs said:

 

The point was to the illustrate what we all know the marinas can do. So we can dispense with the pursuance of the Donald theme. We all know that boaters use marinas because boats float - somewhere. There's one main route to the marina and it is CRT's natural monopoly. Not much point having cars, if there are no roads.  The chicken and egg road. An industrial beginning and reason for the canals to exist, and not because CRT exists as an entity.

 

There is no reason that boats should not be afforded the provision of what is a SORN for cars. If you come back to the business reason, the only thing that could be concluded is - business is the aim, and what has to be done to gain that opportunity. Don't forget, CRT are not giving anything away for free. Even dispensing with the licence fee, in a marina, CRT are still making money from moorers. 9% .   Profit, not any essentially moral or ethical compulsion. We know that the licence is not legally necessary, in a marina. And don't start batting around the marina's T&Cs. The licence is not a marina's invention.

 

So, why not a Standard Offline Notification? A SON. A canal is a road, and the marina is as private as anyone's driveway. Offline.

 

 

There already is such  a scheme, it's called "out on the hard". I did it cheaply with my first little boat, on a trailer. I see you posted around dawn. I hope you haven't been up all night worrying about this. It's really not worth all this fuss.

[Higgs]

22 minutes ago, Jim Riley said:

There already is such  a scheme, it's called "out on the hard". I did it cheaply with my first little boat, on a trailer. I see you posted around dawn. I hope you haven't been up all night worrying about this. It's really not worth all this fuss.

 

Sugar!  I almost got away from the forum then, 

 

But, to reply, you can assume I don't have a boat. And, I was up early, to get to the supermarket. I need some yeast, for baking bread. Thought I'd take it up. In the event, lots of people were there, at the supermarket. Didn't get the yeast. ☺️

 

 

Edited March 18, 2020 by Higgs

[Jim Riley]

Well well, I was presuming you had a boat, skin in the game, as it were. 

[Higgs]

39 minutes ago, Jim Riley said:

Well well, I was presuming you had a boat, skin in the game, as it were. 

 

I ask you only to assume. A boat is immaterial, not relevant to the argument.

 

 

Edited March 18, 2020 by Higgs

[Jim Riley]

2 hours ago, Higgs said:

 

I ask you only to assume. A boat is immaterial, not relevant to the argument.

 

 

I find it best to assume nowt. 

[MtB]

5 hours ago, Higgs said:

 

Sugar!  I almost got away from the forum then, 

 

But, to reply, you can assume I don't have a boat. And, I was up early, to get to the supermarket. I need some yeast, for baking bread. Thought I'd take it up. In the event, lots of people were there, at the supermarket. Didn't get the yeast. ☺️

 

 

 

Why you not eat CAKE instead?! 

 

 

 

 

[Arthur Marshall]

On 17/03/2020 at 10:23, Higgs said:

 

You just can't decide which legal position to follow. I understand that laws are created in parliament, not the marina. / Do you prefer to choose the laws that suit you?

But you can, and in fact everyone does. Try driving down the motorway at 70mph if you don't believe me, and that's just the most obvious example.

[Higgs]

6 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

But you can, and in fact everyone does. Try driving down the motorway at 70mph if you don't believe me, and that's just the most obvious example.

 

Yes, but if I do it on a race track?

 

 

[mayalld]

35 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

Yes, but if I do it on a race track?

 

Well, there is an interesting one.

 

We can, I think agree that most race tracks are NOT public roads?

 

As they are not public roads, the law does not require anybody to hold a driving licence to drive there, and indeed some tracks are used for young driver experiences where people who are too young to hold a licence drive cars.

 

Are you with me so far?

 

Yet, if I wish to race in Formula 1, I must purchase a (very expensive) "FIA Super Licence". It isn't strictly speaking a licence, because it isn't a statutory thing. It is more akin to a club membership, but nothing in the argument rests upon that point.

 

In order to obtain my membership that allows me to drive F1 cars, I must hold a valid ordinary driving licence, and not be banned.

 

So, there we have it. The FIA requires its drivers to hold a driving licence that there is no legal requirement for or they won't let you drive. How is this different to the case in point?

[Higgs]

11 hours ago, mayalld said:

We can, I think agree that most race tracks are NOT public roads?

 

As they are not public roads, the law does not require anybody to hold a driving licence to drive there, and indeed some tracks are used for young driver experiences where people who are too young to hold a licence drive cars.

 

 

Yes, safe to say, those are the points I am continually trying to express. But, obviously, not for the road.

 

Go on.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 19, 2020 by Higgs

[mayalld]

35 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

Yes, safe to say, those are the points I am continually trying to express. But, obviously, not for the road.

 

Go on.

 

Perhaps you should read the rest of the post?