Are my Trojans knackered?

[Momac]

1 minute ago, blackrose said:

Ok thanks but what exactly has your 40 amp charger failed to do that the Aldi charger was capable of doing?

It does not pulse charge .  Once the batteries are charged  it just sits there at 13.5V indefinitely  and does not put the batteries to any exercise.

It also doesn't disconnect the batteries and charge them individually.

 

[BruceinSanity]

21 minutes ago, MartynG said:

It does not pulse charge .  Once the batteries are charged  it just sits there at 13.5V indefinitely  and does not put the batteries to any exercise.

It also doesn't disconnect the batteries and charge them individually.

 

If you switch the marine charger off and on again, does it go back into absorption mode?

[Momac]

1 hour ago, BruceinSanity said:

If you switch the marine charger off and on again, does it go back into absorption mode?

Possibly. But only for a moment. 

It will need to be replaced with something more modern in due course. 

[blackrose]

2 hours ago, MartynG said:

It does not pulse charge .  Once the batteries are charged  it just sits there at 13.5V indefinitely  and does not put the batteries to any exercise.

It also doesn't disconnect the batteries and charge them individually.

 

But disconnecting the batteries and charging them individually can be done with any charger, can't it? 

[Momac]

2 minutes ago, blackrose said:

But disconnecting the batteries and charging them individually can be done with any charger, can't it? 

Yes

 

 

[blackrose]

2 hours ago, BruceinSanity said:

If you switch the marine charger off and on again, does it go back into absorption mode?

Yes, mine goes back into absorption mode and not just for a moment - it will stay in absorption for quite a while.

 

The other thing my charger does is if it senses no activity then after 7 days it will go through a full charging cycle.

Just now, MartynG said:

Yes

 

 

 

2 hours ago, MartynG said:

 

It also doesn't disconnect the batteries and charge them individually.

 

But it could do if you wanted it to.

Edited March 2, 2019 by blackrose

[Momac]

12 minutes ago, blackrose said:

But it could do if you wanted it to.

Do that then.

I think it's worth a go.

You may end up buying new batteries but unless you try to revive the old batteries you will never know if it might have been worth the trouble.

 

 

[blackrose]

21 hours ago, MartynG said:

Do that then.

I think it's worth a go.

You may end up buying new batteries but unless you try to revive the old batteries you will never know if it might have been worth the trouble.

 

 

Yes I'll try to revive them, but I'm not really sure if charging each battery individually works any better then charging them all connected as a bank? I guess if one battery is especially bad then it will be drawing the other two down when off charge so it might be worth separating them and doing as you suggest.

[OldGoat]

I don't want to be a misery - but I've just bought a Hancook battery (for my garden tractor) and it came with a stark warning that if I let the voltage drop below xx.xx OR charged at 14 point something (how the .... would they know either voltage had been reached) then they'd walk away from any warranty issue. I've never seen that on any battery before- so I'm making a note here while I remember.

It's tissing with rain here as  I write and it's dark, thus excuse me for not going outside to confirm... If you think I'm talking rubbish - say so, otherwise I'll pop out in the morning to get the exact message and report back.

[blackrose]

Perhaps it was just a warning on that particular battery? There was no such warning on the Hancook batteries I bought for my BT.

 

Also, I think if you let any battery fall below a certain voltage for long enough it would probably void the warranty. Hancook is not alone there.

Edited March 3, 2019 by blackrose

[Momac]

15 hours ago, blackrose said:

I'm not really sure if charging each battery individually works any better then charging them all connected as a bank

It's not certain but might 

When the batteries are in a bank they are never perfectly equal due to different resistances in cables , connections and internal resistance. This means some batteries will receive more charge than others . Giving each battery a good thrashing individually may may them closer to being equal.  

 

[Momac]

9 hours ago, blackrose said:

Perhaps it was just a warning on that particular battery? There was no such warning on the Hancook batteries I bought for my BT.

 

Also, I think if you let any battery fall below a certain voltage for long enough it would probably void the warranty. Hancook is not alone there.

Battery warranties are not worth the paper they are written on . If fact lucky if you get a written warranty .

I tried to return a UK made battery within 2 years that I am pretty sure that was a bit of dud from new and received an abrupt refusal.  The other of the pair I bought at the same time is still in service 4+ years old

I did not buy the replacement for the dud from that particular supplier but bought a fresh pair of Hankook batteries for the bank  and  changed to a cheaper supplier and consider the warranty to be worthless.

On the basis of my observation of performance  Hankook seem to be as good as any.

[Sea Dog]

4 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Battery warranties are not worth the paper they are written on . If fact lucky if you get a written warranty .

I tried to return a UK made battery within 2 years that I am pretty sure that was a bit of dud from new and received an abrupt refusal. 

This appears to be the norm, however, my son took a car battery back to Eurocarparts at almost 2 years old and received a replacement no questions asked.   Visually perfect but not holding charge - I thought he had no chance!

9 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

Also, I think if you let any battery fall below a certain voltage for long enough it would probably void the warranty. 

This, I think, is the difficulty. How do you prove this hasn't happened when it's such a common cause of failure.

[cuthound]

5 hours ago, Sea Dog said:

How do you prove this hasn't happened when it's such a common cause of failure.

 

Charge fully and then measure capacity by discharging at C20. However very few battery retailers do this, preferring to stick a "tester" on it which put a huge load (almost short circuit) on the battery to show it can produce enough current to start an engine.

[Sea Dog]

1 hour ago, cuthound said:

 

Charge fully and then measure capacity by discharging at C20. However very few battery retailers do this, preferring to stick a "tester" on it which put a huge load (almost short circuit) on the battery to show it can produce enough current to start an engine.

I was thinking rather of how does the customer prove to the battery merchant that they have been supplied with a duffer which deserves a replacement under warranty rather than the more likely scenario that the customer has been a chimp and discharged the battery and left it to die thus voiding the warranty.   

[cuthound]

12 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

I was thinking rather of how does the customer prove to the battery merchant that they have been supplied with a duffer which deserves a replacement under warranty rather than the more likely scenario that the customer has been a chimp and discharged the battery and left it to die thus voiding the warranty.   

 

It's very difficult, in fact almost impossible. 

 

The only time I ever managed to get a replacement car battery out of a supplier was when the "battery technician" put a drop tester on my faulty (low voltage caused by a duff cell as evidenced by the sg readings) and as he went to remove the tester, I held his hands so he couldn't take the drop tester off. Within seconds the acid from the faulty cell erupted over the bench. He couldnt explain away why it had only happened to that one cell and thus was forced to give me a new battery.

[blackrose]

I sent an email to Trojan in the US and this was their response:

 

"When float charging for long periods of time, you still need to check specific gravity to see what is going on in the batteries. When batteries are not gassing much on float, the electrolyte can stratify and the bottom of the cells can become overly sulfated. This is where equalization comes into play."

 

This is all well and good, but like most average users my charger doesn't have any high voltage equalisation function, and how come my last set of Hi-Faze batteries lasted 10 years using exactly the same charging regimen? In the end they'd lost a good deal of their capacity but still held a good charge (unlike these Trojans). So are they saying that Trojans are more susceptible to stratification than other brands? I don't think I'll be buying expensive batteries again. I think I paid just under £500 for the 3 x 130 a/h but it's not worth it if they only last a few years. They never really performed as well as the last set even when they were new.

[BruceinSanity]

9 hours ago, blackrose said:

I sent an email to Trojan in the US and this was their response:

 

"When float charging for long periods of time, you still need to check specific gravity to see what is going on in the batteries. When batteries are not gassing much on float, the electrolyte can stratify and the bottom of the cells can become overly sulfated. This is where equalization comes into play."

 

This is all well and good, but like most average users my charger doesn't have any high voltage equalisation function, and how come my last set of Hi-Faze batteries lasted 10 years using exactly the same charging regimen? In the end they'd lost a good deal of their capacity but still held a good charge (unlike these Trojans). So are they saying that Trojans are more susceptible to stratification than other brands? I don't think I'll be buying expensive batteries again. I think I paid just under £500 for the 3 x 130 a/h but it's not worth it if they only last a few years. They never really performed as well as the last set even when they were new.

The guy from Pb Batteries used to say “Trojans need to be gassed off [ie equalised] at least every two weeks”. I reckon you should only buy them if you are prepared to take a lot of trouble looking after them.

[Naughty Cal]

On 04/03/2019 at 08:09, MartynG said:

Battery warranties are not worth the paper they are written on . If fact lucky if you get a written warranty .

I tried to return a UK made battery within 2 years that I am pretty sure that was a bit of dud from new and received an abrupt refusal.  The other of the pair I bought at the same time is still in service 4+ years old

I did not buy the replacement for the dud from that particular supplier but bought a fresh pair of Hankook batteries for the bank  and  changed to a cheaper supplier and consider the warranty to be worthless.

On the basis of my observation of performance  Hankook seem to be as good as any.

That is where having a proper local battery supplier comes into play. We have had batteries replaced under manufacturers warranty on the cars.

 

Our domestic batteries on the boat have always lasted until just after their warranty has run out.

 

 

[WotEver]

15 hours ago, blackrose said:

I don't think I'll be buying expensive batteries again. I think I paid just under £500 for the 3 x 130 a/h but it's not worth it if they only last a few years.

I think you’d be wise to avoid Trojans or their like for your usage. If a user doesn’t have the equipment/ability/inclination to charge them exactly as advised by the manufacturer then they’re likely to perform more poorly than other, cheaper makes. 

15 hours ago, blackrose said:

This is all well and good, but like most average users my charger doesn't have any high voltage equalisation function

Most (many? some?) boaters with Trojans achieve the equalisation with Solar which, with a decent controller, can give the 15.5V as and when required.