Hybrid inverter

[pgrange]

Hello everyone 

 

First time poster and first time boat owner. I should state that I'm an electrician by trade, commercial work but have little or no experience on 12v dc systems. 

 

The original 13 year old sterling power and batteries on my 57 foot wide beam are knackered and I'm looking to replace and add at least 1000w of solar. 

 

I'm looking to buy 2000w hybrid inverter which incorporates a mppt solar controller and battery charger. I like the look of the iconica 24v hybrid controller as it has some rather nifty programming features like selecting prefferd power source ie. Batteries, shore power, generator etc and the price seems reasonable. 

 

My plan is to replace the aging batteries with 4 x 12v 220ah arranged in a series and parallel configuration to provide 440ah at 24v.  I also plan to add a 24v to 12v step down to run my 12v systems. I have a second alternator on the beta marine engine that I plan to swap out to 24v so my batteries can be charged whilst cruising. 

 

My question is am I over complicating things going 24v or should I stick with 12v inverter. The only inverters that offer the features I need all appear to be 24 or 48v and I cannot find a feature rich 12v 2000w inverter with mppt at a reasonable cost. I've seen Victron units but I'm not willing to fork out over a grand just on the inverter. 

 

Any advice and guidance will be gratefully received. 

 

Many thanks Peter 

 

[WotEver]

Hi Peter and welcome

 

My first thought is that most boaters on here seem to be moving away from multi-function devices, preferring separates for the redundancy they bring. If your spiffy new inverter breaks down then you’ve also lost your solar and vice-versa. 

 

24V electrics have a lot going for them, but also some disadvantages when sourcing equipment. What functionality are you needing to achieve with the boat electrical systems?

[Alan de Enfield]

36 minutes ago, pgrange said:

I'm looking to buy 2000w hybrid inverter which incorporates a mppt solar controller and battery charger.

Agree with @WotEver

 

having had a combi that failed on the battery charger and had to be sent away for repair I then 'lost' for a month,not only the battery charger but the Inverter as well.

I now have 'separates' (as do many, many folks on the forum)

 

Combining your 

Solar

Battery charger &
Inverter

is a recipe for 'disaster'.

 

DON'T DO IT.

 

Get 3 individual units of either 24v or 12v (whatever takes your fancy)

 

Edit to add :

If you think that the Victron is expensive just for 'single' item, imagine the quality of the product that offers you all 3 functions for £340

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2000W-24V-Iconica-hybrid-pure-sine-inverter-with-solar-MPPT-and-AC-mains-charger-/123542442458?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10

 

If it is this type of unit you are thinking about do you think that a 25a battery charger is sufficient for a 440Ah battery bank ?

 

With 1000w of solar you should be looking at an MPPT of around 100amp at 12v, (50amps at 24v), the 'hybrids' I have looked at seem to be 25-40amps at 24v

Edited February 6, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[Dr Bob]

I agree with Tony and Alan.

We changed our system last year to 'separates' after our victron combi decided not to turn on again after a loss of shore power, so left the boat without shore power for a week in very cold weather. Yes I have lost some control over the combi cutting in and keeping a 240V supply to the boat in the event of shore power failure (when we are on the boat).....but it is more important to me to have the 240V supply direct to the boat and not via the combi.

I now have separate

Alternator charging

Battery charger

Victron combi for inverter duty only

2 separate solar chargers fed by their own panels.

[rusty69]

Agree with the above. I would add, 1000W of solar is a lot of roof space. We have 4 x 250W.

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Agree with the above. I would add, 1000W of solar is a lot of roof space. We have 4 x 250W.

He's got a 57 foot

 

FAT BOAT !!!!

 

May the Lord have mercy on his soul.

Edited February 6, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[rusty69]

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

He's got a 57 foot

 

FAT BOAT !!!!

Oh yeah. Doh!

[Dr Bob]

22 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

@WotEver

 

 

If it is this type of unit you are thinking about do you think that a 25a battery charger is sufficient for a 440Ah battery bank ?

 

With 1000w of solar you should be looking at an MPPT of around 100amp at 12v, (50amps at 24v), the 'hybrids' I have looked at seem to be 25-40amps at 24v

The capacity of your battery charger will depend on how you 'run' the boat.

We have 660Ahr of lead acid capacity and are now using a Victron IP22 30A charger.

We only use the charger when returning to shore power ....and in that case our engine will have been running while motoring back to the marina so likely the battery will be 90%+ SoC. Also we tend to keep our batteries at >80% full so never more than 150Ahr to put back in. If on shore power - you then dont need big battery chargers.

Of course it is totally different if you use a portable generator then you do need the oooomph to get the amps in so a bigger charger.

In our system we retained the victron combi and use it only as an invertor, but we can configure the plugs so it works as a battery charger with much bigger amps than the IP22 but in the last year we have never needed that extra power.

[WotEver]

27 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

If you think that the Victron is expensive just for 'single' item, imagine the quality of the product that offers you all 3 functions for £340

Probably a bit too in-depth for most, but this makes very interesting reading:

https://ludens.cl/Electron/chinverter/chinverter.html

[pgrange]

Thank you everybody for your replies! 

 

I take your point about seperates and yes on reflection makes perfect sense. If I understand right by using seperates would I lose the functionality of my inverter auto changing from say battery power, to direct solar, generator etc. 

 

At the moment I have shore power but maybe moving to a mooring where I'll be predominantly off grid so I need a versatile system. 

 

Would everyone agree that at 2 or even 3kw a 24v inverter is the better choice?

 

BTW isn't the fatter the better? ?

 

Peter 

Edited February 6, 2019 by pgrange

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, pgrange said:

Would everyone agree that at 2 or even 3kw a 24v inverter is the better choice?

Do a full power audit of the boat 230v equipment do you really need 3Kw, and remember that if you are using that much you will be drawing 300 amps from the batteries - they won't last long.

 

You are now the 'powerstation' and whatever you use YOU will need to replace (probably +20% or so) 

The hardest thing for a new boater to get their 'heads around' is that a boat is not a floating flat and resources are limited - particularly electricity. You have the advantage that you understand electricity but 12v and having 'to make and store your own' takes some getting used to.

 

Batteries should (ideally) be returned to fully charged each day to minimise sulphation and a common shout for help is

 

"I spent £500 & fitted new batteries 4 - 6 - 8 ……. weeks ago and they are now as dead as the old ones - Why ?"

 

Apologies if you are aware, but you do say you do not have much experience with 12v, but it can take many, many hours to recharge batteries, just because you have a 100 amp alternator does not mean that you can 'put 100 amps back in the battery' in one hour.

It can take 6 or 8 hours to get from (say) 60% SoC to 100% SoC.

 

What equipment do you have (or intend to have) to monitor your batteries usage and SoC ?

[pgrange]

@alan de Enfield

 

Thanks for the reply. 

 

I'll need to do a full power audit before speccing the system. 

 

I know a bit about batteries and in the ideal world I'd go lithium beacuse of thier fast charging capabilities and consistent discharge delivery but funds won't allow so lead acid it is. Off the top of my head my 230v requirement will be a daily 1kw immersion heater, 700w coffee grinder and a weekly 2kw washing machine quick cycle.  Everything else is 12v. My washing machine cycle alone would be in the region of 160A. Therfore a 50A charger would take I guess around 4 to 5 hours to replenish that usage alone. 

 

Clearly I need to do an audit and more research.  A quick side note would you good chaps recommend charging the battery bank direct from a 24v alternator whilst cruising or is there a better solution? 

 

Peter 

 

[WotEver]

A few things spring to mind for off-grid usage. 

 

Hot water - Don’t use an immersion, run the engine. Not only will you get hot water but you’ll be charging the batteries at the same time. You could even go somewhere!

 

Washing Machine - Select a cold wash cycle and arrange for it to fill from the aforementioned hot water (mixed with cold via a thermostatic valve). 

 

Charging to 100% from 50% DoD takes up to 12 hours. 

 

Charging whilst cruising is the best way, it’s almost free. 

[pgrange]

@Wotever 

 

Thanks for the tip re : washing machine! Very useful.

 

Heating the hot water at the moment is a sore subject. The original eberspacher I have, even after chucking a few hundred quid at it is proving to be very unreliable. So I'm in the process of swapping that out for a webasto unit. I also need to improve the lagging on my cylinder and pipe work which sits in the engine bay out back. I've noticed that in this recent cold snap that the water doesn't stay hot for very long. It thought that the immersion was a more efficient way to heat water rather than running the engine. In an off grid situation its interesting to note that the engine will be more efficient. Thanks! 

 

Peter 

[WotEver]

10 minutes ago, pgrange said:

my cylinder and pipe work which sits in the engine bay out back. I've noticed that in this recent cold snap that the water doesn't stay hot for very long.

Have you looked at how you could move the calorifier into the boat?

[pgrange]

3 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Have you looked at how you could move the calorifier into the boat?

There is space in the bathroom beside the shower. Once I get to grips with the electrics I'll then try and figure out how the calorifier is plumbed in and how I can alter that without massive amounts of work. That's a job for another day me thinks ??

[Phil Ambrose]

2 hours ago, pgrange said:

Thank you everybody for your replies! 

 

I take your point about seperates and yes on reflection makes perfect sense. If I understand right by using seperates would I lose the functionality of my inverter auto changing from say battery power, to direct solar, generator etc. 

 

At the moment I have shore power but maybe moving to a mooring where I'll be predominantly off grid so I need a versatile system. 

 

Would everyone agree that at 2 or even 3kw a 24v inverter is the better choice?

 

BTW isn't the fatter the better? ?

 

Peter 

Which ever inverter you go for make sure it's PSW , pure sine wave, many leccy items won't run on a dirty modified sinewave .

Phil

[pgrange]

Thanks Phil! Already on the list.

 

Trying to source a dual mains charger that will allow the simultaneous charing of both my 24v and 12v battery banks when on a shore line. Any recommendations greatly appreciated ?

 

Many thanks

Peter 

[matty40s]

6 minutes ago, pgrange said:

Thanks Phil! Already on the list.

 

Trying to source a dual mains charger that will allow the simultaneous charing of both my 24v and 12v battery banks when on a shore line. Any recommendations greatly appreciated ?

 

Many thanks

Peter 

The 12V battery bank is presumably your starter battery? If so, running your engine will charge this back up in a short timespan - no need for 12V charger.

[OldGoat]

4 hours ago, pgrange said:

Hello everyone 

 

First time poster and first time boat owner. I should state that I'm an electrician by trade, commercial work but have little or no experience on 12v dc systems. 

 

The original 13 year old sterling power and batteries on my 57 foot wide beam are knackered and I'm looking to replace and add at least 1000w of solar. 

 

I'm looking to buy 2000w hybrid inverter which incorporates a mppt solar controller and battery charger. I like the look of the iconica 24v hybrid controller as it has some rather nifty programming features like selecting prefferd power source ie. Batteries, shore power, generator etc and the price seems reasonable. 

 

My plan is to replace the aging batteries with 4 x 12v 220ah arranged in a series and parallel configuration to provide 440ah at 24v.  I also plan to add a 24v to 12v step down to run my 12v systems. I have a second alternator on the beta marine engine that I plan to swap out to 24v so my batteries can be charged whilst cruising. 

 

My question is am I over complicating things going 24v or should I stick with 12v inverter. The only inverters that offer the features I need all appear to be 24 or 48v and I cannot find a feature rich 12v 2000w inverter with mppt at a reasonable cost. I've seen Victron units but I'm not willing to fork out over a grand just on the inverter.  

 

Any advice and guidance will be gratefully received. 

 

Many thanks Peter 

 

Yes, yes yes.

12v is really daft if you're going to have power hungry devices. "Modern electronics" just don't like high currents, thus 24v is the next sensible - 48v even better - that's why land based self sufficiency runs at higher DC voltages.

Have a look a Bimble solar, they do a lot of used panels and HV inverters.

I have a couple of 24v combis from Sterling which cost very little. If needed I can run the battery charging from one and 24v from the other.

 

You were doing well until you said you didn't want spend any money.......

 

https://www.bimblesolar.com/offgrid/inverters/3000w-high-freqency-inverter-24v

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sterling-Power-Pure-Sine-Inverter-24V-3000W-SIB243000/273503537566?epid=19024763550&hash=item3fae14c99e:g:RbMAAOSw7D1cU1gq

 

 

Edited February 6, 2019 by OldGoat

[pgrange]

49 minutes ago, matty40s said:

The 12V battery bank is presumably your starter battery? If so, running your engine will charge this back up in a short timespan - no need for 12V charger.

@matty40s

 

Yep the 12v is the starter battery. Not worth it for when hooked to shore line, redundancy? 

[matty40s]

5 minutes ago, pgrange said:

@matty40s

 

Yep the 12v is the starter battery. Not worth it for when hooked to shore line, redundancy? 

I would just use a small trickle solar panel when moored up and concentrate on getting the 24V charging system as good as you can.

[pgrange]

8 minutes ago, matty40s said:

I would just use a small trickle solar panel when moored up and concentrate on getting the 24V charging system as good as you can.

Thanks again. I already have a small charger that will do that job ?

[Phil Ambrose]

8 hours ago, pgrange said:

@matty40s

 

Yep the 12v is the starter battery. Not worth it for when hooked to shore line, redundancy? 

I fitted a dedicated 20w PV panel to charge the starter, never had a problem with it, just used a cheapo controller and added a diode as the £20-00 panel lacked one

Phil

[pgrange]

7 hours ago, Phil Ambrose said:

I fitted a dedicated 20w PV panel to charge the starter, never had a problem with it, just used a cheapo controller and added a diode as the £20-00 panel lacked one

Phil

Presumably the diode prevents anything going back to the panel? 

 

Peter