Derek R.

So many questions on so many subjects Nick - are they all out of personal interest, or is there a goal to personal gain? I have no objection to the latter, just so long as folk know and are informed.

Replacing paid jobs with volunteers. I wonder how many high ranking politicians and Ministers would offer their services voluntarily (might get rid of some fraudsters). Would the many canal working groups ever have achieved their successes in opening up old navigations without volunteers, or wildlife rescue centres and WRVS exist at all. Not everything or everyone has the means to pay - such work is done out of genuine concern for the subject. Canal and Riverboat magazine carried a cover picture of me steering my boat into Shrewley tunnel in January 1989. I recall seeing a photographer up on the towpath and gave him a nod, after which he must have taken his shot. Doesn't bother me at all, and I certainly would not expect to be 'paid' for having been in that public place no more than I would expect to be paid for walking to the shops. The copyright position is adequately explained in Peter Scott's links. Google Streetview has been the subject of much annoyance to many. There are situations and images where peoples property has been 'invaded' by their cameras - through open doors and room contents through windows. Some properties have been 'fuzzed out' by request of the owners, and Google have complied to those requests. Streetview has been great for finding places and for seeing in advance a road layout and lane layout in advance of actually going to that place, but being able to see what is parked or placed on private property is indeed contentious. If you take your boat into a public place such as a rally of some sort, you expect to have it photographed - looked at, and people want some evidence of a craft to keep or show their friends. It's perfectly natural, and to be expected. But if such an image were to be used specifically for advertising some product or service, then permission of the subject is required. It's all adequately explained in Peter's link.

My Great Great Grandfather-in-Law would not have his photograph taken, as he considered it would prevent him from entering the after-life. But photography back then, and in Rural France was not an affordable past-time for the majority. People have their images taken every day. Whether it is by coincidence by being in the frame of some tourist shot or a scene recorded for posterity - does it matter? But having someone say "can I take a picture of you" is a bit different - you can agree or not. How many images exist of people steering boats, whether at events or just boats moving along somewhere. Tim Lewis's images are taken of many boats and people at events and are put on public display, I see no 'crime' of copyright infringement in that. In fact it's nice to see old faces and the latest condition of their relative craft. All this palava about having images stored and distributed does change somewhat when such images can be transmitted to the World and it's wife - and therein lay a fear for some of abuse. But isn't this a World we have created for ourselves? Do the Guards on sentry duty in full red and bearskin get asked if they can have their photo taken by the hundreds who do so? It gets silly when this 'copyright' business is taken that far. How many images exist of people doing things from a lifetime ago that appear in published journals - from magazines to club newsletters. Some are reproduced with permission of the family - some are not - though their inclusion may be there for historic documentation. But where does that leave the passer by when taking photo's of new developments? There has been quite a bit of contention (and worse) over security guards intervening in such instances. 'Security' - that's a joke! Travel the length of the Holloway Road and you will appear on over 300 cameras, but ask for them to be admitted as evidence in an action and you won't get far. This subject does have some merit in preventing unwanted distribution of personal images whether under copyright or not, but we have to remember that all of us have our images taken unwillingly a thousand times a day from CCTV and satellite. Just as we like to be seen and recognised - see and record, it is a multifaceted issue that is only slightly understood and even less under our control. Smile - you're on camera. Like it or not.

At risk of raising surveyors hackles the following is quite non-descript: Thickness readings were taken over most of the hull surface and the least thicknesses were found to be 5.1mm. The bottom plate is somewhat variable in thickness but it is reasonable to assume that the plate was originally approximately 8.0mm thick. Therefore some loss of plate mass was noted. "Most of the hull surface" Well, one would hardly expect 'all' of the surface to have been tested, though the most suspect in terms of thickness should and possibly would have been targeted. The lastmiddle sentence gives no indication at all other than an assumption. 5mm thickness is nothing to worry about, less than 3 is. And it is in the pits that the thinnest will be found. The sign-writer Nick Hardey was on the Waterways Craft list, but currently I cannot find a contact. Try Jim Shead's page of boat painters and sign-writers here.

I cannot say as I do not know, but if there is no conclusive evidence that the boat was built in 1988, there may be a possibility that memory has inadvertently thought '88 when it may have been '78. There may be many craft called Dragonfly, and I know Nick Hardey the signwriter lived aboard one such at Harefield in 2000something, and seem to recall him mentioning Hancock & Lane. Memory has no more details - not even the length, though I'm sure it was more than 40'. What on Earth is that in your avatar - it looks like red hot porridge from a wooden tub??? Curious!

What stand out at first read are: "I’ve worked at the Canal & River Trust for over three years now and amazingly before last week I’d never been out on a narrowboat before. . . . I’d never actually stepped foot on a boat." and: "The idea of the day was to give us a tour of part of the BCN so that we get to experience what it’s like to be out and about on the water, rather than watching the action from the towpath (or writing about what we imagine it would be like from an office)." ​It might seem a little unkind to pick up on what might appear negative comments, but all power to Laurence's action in getting those involved in management out of their cocoons, and very glad to hear Odette's interest has been ignited. Of course, not all CRT staff will be so open nor will some be so inexperienced about boating, but to have gotten involved in work of historical importance as well as leisure does raise the question what made Odette apply for the job, and what were the job interviewers interests in her involvement? Long gone are the days when management got to their positions through working their way up, and much has been lost along the way - involvement is everything. I'm glad Odette has widened her experiences and grateful to Laurence for providing the incentive.

The first and last links are recorded over clips from the films; 'Inland Waterways' and 'There Go The Boats'. Both available through Beulah films and a search on you tube and with their own descriptive narrative. I'm sure Laurence Hogg will also be able to supply similar information. More links and comments in THIS THREAD. (Not shouting, just emphasizing a live link!)

I would take a guess at the customer wanted 'headroom' in his back cabin, and was not fussy over details. Same can be said of many vehicle restorations, though in other fields some changes are seen as improvements on the original. The restoration of historic narrow boats has become something of a rivet counters paradise. It doesn't look 'right', because we're most likely all channeled into 'original is best'. Even so, boats and their proportions are a very subjective thing, and if it doesn't 'look' right, the ship is spoilt for a h'aporth of tar, but in this case it's several squillion quids worth of steel. An idea backed by lots of money doesn't necessarily produce the goods. Someone will love it though.

Well it may be the conversion in image resizing that makes it look 'pinched', but if not that's an unfortunate result. It doesn't follow as a true small Woolwich motor copy either way. But if that's what the punter ordered . . .

A combination of skill, persistence, focus, and art. Some people are amazing . . . but they won't admit it.

I don't suppose 100 years ago the commercial business of fleet management had much thought to those who followed 100 years hence! I wonder how many people today are cataloging their actions with a view to future historians ability to decipher ways and means?

TYCHO's counter is a new one, but slavishly copied from the original by Graeme Pearce and crew at Stockton in 2002. The rivets may not be quite exact replicas of those used by Yarwoods, but they are in the correct places as are the rubbing bands.

Is access to the River Dee a desirable thing for cruising boaters? Does it connect with extra miles of attractive waterways? If it is not, then it is likely it will not be used, and it will - especially being tidal - get silted up again very quickly without ongoing dredging. What then, would a campaigning rally to de-silt and make good the locks to gain access to the Dee when apart from a few bold spirits wishing to say 'they did it' - really achieve? This is rather like a copy-cat desire to see a full size working Foxton inclined plane. Sincere desire to re-instate something lost, but where are the benefits in a day and age where cruising is about backwater places in safe waters where amenities are on tap, or secure mooring are available. Does the Dee offer any of these things? Is this not just another White Elephant idea when other places could benefit from cash input and return fresh miles and destinations? Some sleeping dogs are best left as they are.

Absolutely. Dippers can be bought from agricultural merchants. Sometimes called corn scoops (though they come in differing shapes) and sometimes manure scoops. It's easy to see why the term 'dipper' came into being used, as a handbowl was dipped into the cut for water. But they were truly a bowl, capable of standing flat on its circular tin base, with a handle for ease of use - that's a hand bowl. Calling them dippers is like calling boatmen bargees, or water cans watering cans. Maybe no difference to many, but the devil is always in the detail.

Anderton lift was the only connection to and from the Weaver to the Trent & Mersey Canal, and as well as being the first of its kind in the World, I think justifies the cost though some will disagree. The Foxton Inclined Plane is not the only connection from top to bottom, and so the value of access is directly affected. How many would wait in a queue to use the locks instead of paying a fee to use the Plane? It's a big outlay for a fragile return. The boat scales at Stoke top are never used but do show what was in use at one time, but they have not been 'reconstructed' from raw materials - they're the real deal. Which makes a non-working replica Plane a bit of a White Elephant - even if it would be at lower cost to a working one. The bottom line must be who pays for its ongoing maintenance and a keeper to oversee operations. A large sum of money to get something built might be an obstacle that could be overcome by raffles, rallies and donations. But to maintain for years to come when it might see little actual traffic other than those wanting to say they'd been on it - and possibly only once? Best left a green sward and the plaques and information boards such as exist.

HNBC published a booklet entitled 'Our Disappearing Heritage' a few years back showing all too often new infrastructure that impairs and impedes, often in the name of 'safety'. Yet such structures - especially new railings - can add to danger in boarding and alighting from craft.

A friend posted me a short Vimeo video of London by Claude Friese-Greene. It's beautifully filmed, and the colour is most appealing. Shots of the Thames around the Pool, but mostly London as it was in the 1920's. http://vimeo.com/7638752 Amongst the comments was another link to a whole trip from Land's End to John O'Groats. Canals do feature albeit briefly, but one shot shows a loaded boat coming out of a lock on the Glamorgan Canal, loaded with what looks like moulded bricks. http://beta.bfi.org.uk/4ce2b6a1cd5c1 Notable points may be; 18m 11s Cardiff Docks; 19m 50s Glamorgan Canal; 23m 44s Narrow boats 'ELIZABETH' and two others plus shots inside Wedgewoods decorating room; 34m 49s Oban, fishing and gutting; 45m 30s Ballahulish Ferry; & 54m 00s London, with a little more than the former Vimeo. Overall, a fascinating insight to life in the British Isles in the mid 1920's, with a depth and detail I have not seen before.

Just so. It's a 'turnover' bridge taking the towpath from one side to another. Often there was iron work placed that also helped prevent towing lines from snagging. On some sharp bends on the BCN, vertical rollers were fitted on the inside of bends for the same reasons. Most are gone by now, though there might be some somewhere.

Only place they are not so dense is in the desire to be seen to be actively engaged in developing their ability to climb corporate ladders and in personal salaries and pensions. Cynical but true.

Fascinating stuff. Love all this historic sleuthing! Well done.

Thanks Nick, I've missed out on much not being local, and the 'Cap'n' has certainly done some research! Much to discover just perusing his 'Lost Canals' section.

I don't have any maps, but do have a cruising guide by the Birmingham branch of the IWA. It doesn't mention any of the wharves along the Toll End Communication canal, but the entrance can still be seen here: http://goo.gl/maps/t829d Not the basin, but the smaller bridged to the left of the basin. This dove under the railway and the rest is largely speculation as to where Eli's boat dock might have been. You can almost trace the course to Great Bridge with a bit of imagination. You can follow the course through the industrial area North of the railway and across Alexander Road and alongside 'Brooks Meadow' (there's a shallow ditch that marks the likely course). There was a lock along that stretch, and an inlet/basin to the North. Just before you reach Upper Church Lane there seems to be a sharp turn to the right, with a short stump/basin dead ahead. On some old maps there is shown "Old Canal" extending beyond Church Lane possibly to Cotterill Farm Colliery. The cut having turned abruptly right, goes through another lock just before Upper Church Lane then dives beneath just North of the Zebra Crossing, continuing along the back of the Fire Station. It then crosses what is now a playing field and skirts the top of the Cemetery where there was a lock. There was another lock just before passing beneath Bridge Road. Now the canal line is taken up by the road within the industrial estate until it reaches Toll End Road where it goes beneath - the bridge abutments are visible. The line now goes through the parking area of the big warehouse and joins the Walsall Canal. At the junction now obliterated, is a pipe bridge parallel to the towpath where the Toll End Communication Canal ended. Don't get mixed up with Tipton Brook. This ran alongside on first one side then the other. I think I've got that about right. I'm not local, and only going on what can be seen from aerial shots compared to old maps.

An interesting explanation, but appears to be based upon the lack of a wider perspective in the education systems at large. It was obscure, and remains so. I learned of some Shakespeare plays at school (in England) and learned to avoid any such if possible preferring a railway embankment to cop numbers (steam engine numbers). I had heard of Zulus, but knew nothing of them not having been taught of them at school. Most of a persons education is gained from after school is left - and it never stops. Should we blame the education system - or ourselves? If CRT are at fault, we have yet to see that fault, as most of their inherited problems are from the previous custodians (some might say vandals). But like our railway and road networks, much has changed along the wayside. Only the privatised branch lines and transport museums hold keys to our historical past. It is not to the private boater one should aim a desire to consider the canals as historic artefacts - most are well aware of this already. It is to the property developer and Council alike - but your chance of any sway in that direction is close to nil. Interesting to learn that the Zulu word for the short spear came from the sound it made when pulled from the body - Ikwla. Not unlike the sound of shopping trolleys pulled from the mud. (I suppose there had to be relevance somewhere).

Can you explain the relevance of Shaka's spear and Shakespeare to canal infrastructure, its boats, and history please.

To consider that historic boats are NOT a tourist attraction comes as a surprise to me. I have always considered them to be part of the history of canals, and whenever and wherever I have cruised, people have shown an interest in the boat, and I have always responded with some potted history of not just the boat but also of the cargoes and destinations available. Quite often this has been met with surprise: - "I thought it only went a few miles" is a comment not infrequently heard. But for linear moorings, I fear we are our own worst enemy. Let alone the marinas full of mostly modern craft, are we not in an ironic situation that 'Waterways' were in over seventy years ago - Too Many Boats? In some ways we are not, as not all are likely to be on the move at any one time save Bank Holidays whereas 'Waterways' (and I mean that not in any specific, but carrying companies in general) were short of crew. cargoes, and facilities - and faced with road competition. Today it seems to be moorings, and getting ahead becomes difficult when there are lines of moored craft where once there was clear towpath, no generators, no clutter. It's 'society' that has changed. The history is there, but it's been lost in the main through development demands and the smudging of former evidence of their purpose. Perhaps that's the problem. Most of history is in the archives bar a few remnants, as history alone does not turn sufficient coin. We read the books, watch the films, and regret its passing - or do we? The camaraderie was in part created by common hardships and a desire to outshine your peers, but it was all graft, graft, graft. Those buildings and boats echo it, but those tuned in to hear are a minority, and seldom wealthy. The rest - do they care?