Is there a simpler way...

[Doodlebug]

Hi all,

 

We are on a very small boat and when the stove is lit it becomes unbearably hot. Then by morning it is far too cold.

 

Is there a way around this. I am currently pursuing the idea of a thermal store using a water tank to store the excess heat but wonder if there is a simpler way. I am known for overcomplicating things!

 

Will a back boiler and radiators help buffer it slightly? Or even just heating the calorifier?

 

It must be a problem others face

 

Cheers

 

Doodlebug

[MtB]

Yes.

 

Your stove is burning fuel too fast. It needs slowing down by letting less air into it, but without letting it go out.

 

Check the rope seals around the ashpan cover and try closing whatever air vents you have on it fully. If the rope seals are good, the fire will go out from oxygen starvation. Once to know the rope seals are good, you can experiment with cracking open the air vent overnight the smallest amount consistent with it staying alight.

 

Another method is to reduce the volume of the firebox so less coal fits in, by putting a housebrick or two in either side. This will reduce the heat output of the stove quite well, although the reduced volume of fuel will also make it stay alight for a shorter time. Might still stay in overnight. My squirrel will stay in for 24 hrs easily with no attention whatever. I also have a tiny little stove called a Hot Pot which stays in overnight (just) too with barely a shovelful of smokeless fuel.

 

MtB

[Doodlebug]

Thanks for the reply

 

I have already reduced the internal area, and can keep it in overnight but in the first hour of lighting the stove it burns too hot if I close the vents it goes out. After an hour it's fine but by then the boats too hot.

[Doodlebug]

I also tend to find that when I have shut the vents down by the morning the fire is too cool to be doing any proper heating. I wonder if because of the reduced area I should be using different coal, i.e. small lumps?

 

The ropes round the door are fine - there are no ropes around the ash door and vent but I open the bottom one by half a millimetre and it keeps it ticking over.

 

It doesn't help that lighting the stove coincides with cooking which also heats up the boat.

[MtB]

I also tend to find that when I have shut the vents down by the morning the fire is too cool to be doing any proper heating. I wonder if because of the reduced area I should be using different coal, i.e. small lumps?

 

The ropes round the door are fine - there are no ropes around the ash door and vent but I open the bottom one by half a millimetre and it keeps it ticking over.

 

It doesn't help that lighting the stove coincides with cooking which also heats up the boat.

 

How about lighting the stove AFTER cooking then? This seems rather obvious from over here!

 

MtB

[bottle]

Thanks for the reply

 

I have already reduced the internal area, and can keep it in overnight but in the first hour of lighting the stove it burns too hot if I close the vents it goes out. After an hour it's fine but by then the boats too hot.

 

Vents on stoves are not just open and shut, they are infinitely variable.

 

When stove is first lit, vents fully open as soon as the fuel is alight the vent can be closed (but still open) to control the rate of burning (heat).

 

The setting of the vents is a fine art and will vary from stove to stove even of the same make.

 

The rate of burn (heat) will also be affected by outside weather conditions, cold, wind etc all have an effect.

 

So a vent setting that works one night may not the next.

 

My MorsØ Squirrel runs day and night with the bottom vent closed and the top (rear) vent at the halfway position.

 

I do open the vents fully just after refuelling but only for about 1 minute, just to get it going.

 

The saloon stays at about 20° C continuously.

 

I have checked all seals etc. and they are OK.

[Doodlebug]

 

How about lighting the stove AFTER cooking then? This seems rather obvious from over here!

 

MtB

 

That would seem quite obvious but if we get back late and the stove needs an hour to get going it tends to clash with the cooking. Having said that we cook, then light the stove but the heat left over from cooking is still there.

 

Maybe I need to try shutting the vents sooner. Thanks for the advice though, think its going to need some experimenting.

[MtB]

 

My MorsØ Squirrel runs day and night with the bottom vent closed and the top (rear) vent at the halfway position.

 

I'd agree with everything Bottle said.

 

But I'm puzzled. My Squirrel only has a top vent in the front, in the top of the door as far as I know. Although I must admit, I've never looked for one at the rear. I'll have a close look around the back next time I'm on Alderbaran.

 

Doodlebug, what make and model of stove do you have?

 

MtB

[Doodlebug]

 

I'd agree with everything Bottle said.

 

But I'm puzzled. My Squirrel only has a top vent in the front, in the top of the door as far as I know. Although I must admit, I've never looked for one at the rear. I'll have a close look around the back next time I'm on Alderbaran.

 

Doodlebug, what make and model of stove do you have?

 

MtB

 

I'll brace myself for the words 'thats your problem right there' but its a clarke barrel stove.

 

That said it is heavily modified using firebricks. The internal area is smaller than a hobbit stove. It has a baffle which I made and firerope around the door so thats air tight.

 

The base vent has no rope but as I say, if its done up fully the fire goes out so it must be pretty air tight.

[bottle]

Depends on the model Mike, the 1410 has vents top and bottom at the front.

 

Mine 1430, has vent at bottom (ash pan door) and a rear vent, controlled by a lever under the very bottom of the stove.

[nb Innisfree]

Our Villager Puffin is capable of running for more than three days on a full load of Excel, overnight is a doddle.

[bottle]

Doodlebug

 

I am guessing that this stove only has one control, at the bottom, if so then it is just a matter of finding the right degree of 'open', to suit the fuel being used and the heat required.

 

There are so many variables that settings cannot be exact, it becomes a 'suck it and see'.

[Phil Ambrose]

I have pot belly stove and as has been said before they are hard to control but I have it down to a fine art and apart from air control via the vent I use what I call Ash Control. This means not entirely raking all the ash out or on occasion chucking some on. And yes all fires differ but once you get to know your fire you'll be fine.

Phil

[MtB]

I have pot belly stove and as has been said before they are hard to control but I have it down to a fine art and apart from air control via the vent I use what I call Ash Control. This means not entirely raking all the ash out or on occasion chucking some on. And yes all fires differ but once you get to know your fire you'll be fine.

Phil

 

 

I'll brace myself for the words 'thats your problem right there' but its a clarke barrel stove.

 

That said it is heavily modified using firebricks. The internal area is smaller than a hobbit stove. It has a baffle which I made and firerope around the door so thats air tight.

 

The base vent has no rope but as I say, if its done up fully the fire goes out so it must be pretty air tight.

 

Gosh that's a cute little stove and only 225 squids!

 

http://www.tool-net.co.uk/p-348042/clarke-barrel.html?gclid=CJjVodz6wbsCFUbKtAod8VcAQg

 

Phil makes a good point, the amount of ash you rake out, or leave in, is another way to moderate the airflow through it. Have you tried keeping it in 24/7 on a really low setting rather than lighting it once a day. It could be a good solution if you use smokeless fuel.

 

MtB

[Doodlebug]

Wow - I was expecting the 'you get what you pay for' comment As for as I am concerned a stove is a stove. As long as you have one with firebricks and can control airflow I can't see how I can justify 800 on a stove when I can get the same for a quarter of the price.

 

That said I do wish the barrel stove had a riddler and a top air vent. Also I have been meaning to make a new system for the ash door because I worry if our boat was knocked the door could unlatch itself.

 

 

 

Gosh that's a cute little stove and only 225 squids!

 

http://www.tool-net.co.uk/p-348042/clarke-barrel.html?gclid=CJjVodz6wbsCFUbKtAod8VcAQg

 

Phil makes a good point, the amount of ash you rake out, or leave in, is another way to moderate the airflow through it. Have you tried keeping it in 24/7 on a really low setting rather than lighting it once a day. It could be a good solution if you use smokeless fuel.

 

MtB

 

Its funny that was mentioned, I was about to say that I remember someone saying about putting some ash over the top. I will give it a try.

 

Does a top vent help much - because I was thinking about taking out the little window (which blacks up anyway) and fabricating a little steel top vent for the stove. Do you think its worth doing?

 

Thanks again

 

Doodlebug

[MtB]

Wow - I was expecting the 'you get what you pay for' comment As for as I am concerned a stove is a stove. As long as you have one with firebricks and can control airflow I can't see how I can justify 800 on a stove when I can get the same for a quarter of the price.

 

That said I do wish the barrel stove had a riddler and a top air vent. Also I have been meaning to make a new system for the ash door because I worry if our boat was knocked the door could unlatch itself.

 

 

Its funny that was mentioned, I was about to say that I remember someone saying about putting some ash over the top. I will give it a try.

 

Does a top vent help much - because I was thinking about taking out the little window (which blacks up anyway) and fabricating a little steel top vent for the stove. Do you think its worth doing?

 

Thanks again

 

Doodlebug

 

As I understand it, a top vent is for use when burning wood as wood likes to sit on a bed of ash so one burns wood with the bottom vent fully closed and the top vent open. Do I understand anyway, I never burn wood.

 

Coal and smokeless fuel is different in that it needs a supply of air from underneath instead, so one closes the top vent and uses the bottom vent to regulate the burn rate.

 

So the answer to your question depends on the fuel you use. If you are using wood I'm not surprised it is cool by morning. Smokeless fuel has about ten to twenty times the staying-in power of wood.

 

MtB

[Doodlebug]

Sorry, I should have said I use smokeless. Never use wood other than logs ontop of the coal but not often.

 

And when I say coal I always mean smokeless. .

 

What you said about the top vent and wood was what I thought too, but bottle was saying about how he has the top one open and bottom closed so thats what made me doubt myself.

 

Surely coal needs air from underneath.

[MtB]

Sorry, I should have said I use smokeless. Never use wood other than logs ontop of the coal but not often.

 

And when I say coal I always mean smokeless. .

 

What you said about the top vent and wood was what I thought too, but bottle was saying about how he has the top one open and bottom closed so thats what made me doubt myself.

Ok thanks for the fuel clarification. You may have said before but I was too lazy to read back over the whole thread

 

Surely coal needs air from underneath.

I thought so too. I always have the top vent fully closed on my Squirrel, but then I've never tried opening it as it works brilliantly with it closed!

[PaulJ]

My Little Wenlock only has a bottom vent and that has no gasket either-thats the way it was made. It is,IMO, a brilliant stove,stays in for ever and Ive had it for years. Point I am tryin to make is that you dont always need a top vent. In the mornings I usually riddle and then chuck the ash over whatever is left from night before.I use no more fuel that way and it will stay in all day. It really does work.

[bottle]

Mine is a little different, the top vent, at the back as mentioned, supplies air over the top of the stove (under the top plate) and down the door, the 'technical' description is an 'airwash', it is supposed to aid in keeping the glass clean.

 

It also, allegedly, does a 'second burn' of the gasses that come from the burning of the solid fuel.

 

So to sum up, the air enters at the back, goes across the top of the stove, down the door and supplies air to the bottom front of the fuel, it also supplies air the exhaust gasses, for a 'second burn'.

 

Now whether this is all true or not I do not know but it does work.

[smileypete]

Sounds like there are two issues; stove lighting technique then the stove itself isn't sealing well enough to tick over at a low level.

 

So, how do you light it in the evenings? One way that used to work well for me when lighting from cold was to make a 'mini roll' of waste cotton then dip in paraffin and place a a layer of coals around and above it. Once the lighter had gone out and the surrounding coals lit the stove could be turned down no problem or left open to heat up.

 

Secondly it sounds like the stove isn't sealing very well and there are gaps letting air in even when all the vents are closed. Something you could try is put a load of smouldering kitchen paper or smoke matches in the stove, then close the stove fully and blow DOWN the chimney with a small electric fan. Where the smoke comes out is where the gaps are!

 

Tell us what results you get, but there should be NO leaks in the joints between castings. If the ash door can't take a rope gasket it might need finding out where the 'high spots' are between the door edge and the stove and then careful filing down so it seals better.

 

Having said it looks like the stove is an 11.8kW one, which is big enough for a dutch barge let alone a small NB! Getting it to tick over on 0.5 to 1kW may require some skilled fettling. A 'boatman' stove could be had for not much more £££ on the retail price over the clarke one - that is the 'simpler way'....

 

Last but not least be sure to have 2 CO alarms, one with a LCD display of CO level.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited December 22, 2013 by smileypete

[Mac of Cygnet]

 

 

Does a top vent help much - because I was thinking about taking out the little window (which blacks up anyway) and fabricating a little steel top vent for the stove. Do you think its worth doing?

 

Thanks again

 

Doodlebug

 

It's generally not a good idea to add a top vent to a stove which wasn't designed to have one. After all, what you're doing is put a hole in the stove where there wasn't meant to be one, right? While it would almost certainly be OK while the stove was drawing well (flue hot), it could allow combustion gases out in cooler conditions.

 

Having said that, I am less than sanguine about the ability and experience of some stove manufacturers - some designs just don't seem to work well, and users shouldn't always blame themselves if they are difficult to manage. The trouble is that 'try before you buy' is a bit difficult. Reputation counts for a lot, and although I agree with Mike that yours looks a dinky little stove, looks aren't the thing.

[Doodlebug]

Thanks for the advice, the throwing ash over seemed to be working well.

 

It may be 11.6 kw when we bought it but as I say its been modified! I installed 20m of copper piping in the top of the stove to heat water with (I know I need to be careful of the water boiling but i've built in safety things to stop that) so the top 15cm of the stove is pipes, and the inside is mainly firebricks.

 

I managed to connect the pipes to our heating system and its now working perfectly. Even without throwing ash on top heating the radiators is enough of a buffer to allow me to get it all lit and then damped down to 'tickover'.

 

As for firelighting I use one firelighter, a few bits of kindling and then coal on top - ash door open until its glowing red underneath then close it all down.

 

I'm sat here feeling nice and toasty but not too hot - the whole room is a consistent temperature because of the radiators all over the place. And the stove has heated our shower water! That should reduce gas usage.

 

I just hope I can get it worked out so it ticks over 24/7 until the sun next comes out in a few months time!

Thanks smileypete for that - i'll give it a try.

 

The wind was causing problems yesterday and it turns out the stove door (with the firerope) leaks. Not too sure about the casting joints so ill give it a go.

 

Could that be causing the problems?

[smileypete]

If you can shut the vents and have a roaring fire die out then it's well sealed.

 

Fire rope may not be that gas tight, compressing it a goodly amount helps. Some rope has a removable core or there's flat 'tapes' around.

 

'I know I need to be careful of the water boiling but i've built in safety things to stop that' - hmm doesn't that sound promising I have to say. With a decent, simple, vented design with header tank it should be able to boil away quite happily with no safety consequences whatsoever.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited December 22, 2013 by smileypete

[Doodlebug]

If you can shut the vents and have a roaring fire die out then it's well sealed.

 

Fire rope may not be that gas tight, compressing it a goodly amount helps. Some rope has a removable core or there's flat 'tapes' around.

 

'I know I need to be careful of the water boiling but i've built in safety things to stop that' - hmm doesn't that sound promising I have to say. With a decent, simple, vented design with header tank it should be able to boil away quite happily with no safety consequences whatsoever.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

 

Cool - the ash tray isn't very well sealed but as you say it goes out if done up so must be adequate enough. I really need to design something better though. I'm not happy with the catch.

 

Well the header tank is one of the safety devices. Its not a sealed system so it should just cause the header tank to overflow at worst. There are two pumps as well in the system - both are adequate but I wanted the water circulating a bit faster so if one fails the other will keep plodding away.

 

Plus I intend to fit a little circuit to monitor the water temperature to increase efficiency. I'm thinking about feeding a thermistor into the pipes in the fire then using a picaxe chip to monitor the temperature and control the speed of the pump effectively. At the moment the water is traveling full speed round the system but the fire is not giving out much heat. The pipes coming out the fire are therefore lukewarm.

 

Lets see how warm we are in the morning!

 

Cheers

 

Doodlebug