Hifi

[wiltshirewonderer]

I've not yet moved bought onto a boat but for the second time in my life I'm trying to migrate my life to efficient 12v DC appliances ahead of the big day (First time was to a 'van BTW. Three winters before I was pulled away but didn't think I was going to go back again... wish I never gave everything away!).

 

I have always been a big music person. Crap at creating, good at listening! Anyhoo... I bought a 12v DC powered amp with a DAC input (USB). It is a Topping TP32 based on a Tripath chip. So.. very efficient (Knew that), sounds good (Had been told, read the reviews...). cheap (Boom blaster pricing).

 

But wow! The sound is fantastic. Even though it is combined with a pair of compact and cheap Gale speakers the sound field and separation is brilliant. It doesn't offer a massive SPL (Bass!) but I am awestruck by the quality of the money. Maybe I'm just out of date with the progress made in the last 10 years but if not, this is what I now have:

 

This is the setup:

1 x amplifier

1 x speakers

 

Does anybody else have a class T / Tripath based amp? Any downsides I haven't considered?

 

I can imagine it will get upset with the voltage when charging is taking place. Especially the more modern chargers that use high voltage pulses to de-sulphate. What is the best way (These days) to regulate the voltage and clean the supply?

 

If anyone has any questions about the amp please fire away and I will do my best to answer.

 

 

[DHutch]

Interesting product, shame its not half the price, but having spent a while wondering what to do HiFi wise on the boat if it sounds well it might be a good option, I guess you could always combine it with a suitable subwoofer.

 

Daniel

[Chalky]

See if you can get any of the high end automotive OEM amplifiers that will work with your system rather than any esoteric parts. If a company supplies the vehicle manufacturers they will be used to delivering part that meet some very tight specifications for electrical noise and interference. Many hi-fi companies don't always design to these standards (they're far more extreme than for domestic).

The de-sulphate pulses in modern chargers are significantly lower in amplitude than the typical transients in a car electrical system and any decent OEM kit will be tested to work in a far more extreme environment than a boat will throw at it. (I've worked for 4 different OEMs in the electrical departments).

 

Many high end vehicle audio amplifiers use internal switch mode power supplies to generate high voltage rails to run the output stages of the amplifier off - there's only so much power you can get from 12V amplifiers. Most (60%) of the work in developing a good sounding audio installation goes into the development of the system equalisation - the amplifiers and signal sources are only responsible for part of it.

[Paul C]

Is that 30W peak music power, or RMS, or something else? I've always been happy with Alpine equipment, we have an Alpine head unit which has 4x50W (probably peak) amp built in, which has been more than adequate so far. The speakers are car stereo speakers in the interior, but it also has a speaker selection switch and 2x outdoor speakers at the back. If it ever needs upgrading, I have a 500W and 300W amplifier, a bunch more speakers, and a sub-bass box (Alpine 12" woofer in there) but there's been no need so far for them. After all, the focus tends to be on the peace and quiet of the canalside, etc.

[Taslim]

Thank's for that info. bookmarked.

 

Now how to put vinal/tapes/cd onto digital thingmybob.

[wiltshirewonderer]

Interesting product, shame its not half the price, but having spent a while wondering what to do HiFi wise on the boat if it sounds well it might be a good option, I guess you could always combine it with a suitable subwoofer.

 

Daniel

It can be half the price if you are willing to lose the remote and USB.

[GUMPY]

Interesting product, shame its not half the price, but having spent a while wondering what to do HiFi wise on the boat if it sounds well it might be a good option, I guess you could always combine it with a suitable subwoofer.

 

Daniel

I ran a pair of gale 3020 with a gale sub on the barge great sound the sub makes all the difference.

Did I mention since I moved onto the narrowboat they are for sale?

[wiltshirewonderer]

Is that 30W peak music power, or RMS, or something else? I've always been happy with Alpine equipment, we have an Alpine head unit which has 4x50W (probably peak) amp built in, which has been more than adequate so far. The speakers are car stereo speakers in the interior, but it also has a speaker selection switch and 2x outdoor speakers at the back. If it ever needs upgrading, I have a 500W and 300W amplifier, a bunch more speakers, and a sub-bass box (Alpine 12" woofer in there) but there's been no need so far for them. After all, the focus tends to be on the peace and quiet of the canalside, etc.

RMS. Looks like you can get up to 50w per side without the price getting silly. Impressed how cold it runs, my previous hifi (and car stereo's) tended to waste a fair bit of leccy as heat.

See if you can get any of the high end automotive OEM amplifiers that will work with your system rather than any esoteric parts. If a company supplies the vehicle manufacturers they will be used to delivering part that meet some very tight specifications for electrical noise and interference. Many hi-fi companies don't always design to these standards (they're far more extreme than for domestic).

The de-sulphate pulses in modern chargers are significantly lower in amplitude than the typical transients in a car electrical system and any decent OEM kit will be tested to work in a far more extreme environment than a boat will throw at it. (I've worked for 4 different OEMs in the electrical departments).

 

Many high end vehicle audio amplifiers use internal switch mode power supplies to generate high voltage rails to run the output stages of the amplifier off - there's only so much power you can get from 12V amplifiers. Most (60%) of the work in developing a good sounding audio installation goes into the development of the system equalisation - the amplifiers and signal sources are only responsible for part of it.

[nicknorman]

Running mains stuff from a modern inverter doesn't really add much inefficiency, in fact as chalky mentions trying to get decent HiFi from 12v without previously stepping the voltage up, means you are battling ohmic losses all the way. We run our inverter pretty much all the time we are on the boat and don't notice the battery consumption when its idling. If I were a HiFi fan, I would run domestic kit from 240v.

[wiltshirewonderer]

Running mains stuff from a modern inverter doesn't really add much inefficiency, in fact as chalky mentions trying to get decent HiFi from 12v without previously stepping the voltage up, means you are battling ohmic losses all the way. We run our inverter pretty much all the time we are on the boat and don't notice the battery consumption when its idling. If I were a HiFi fan, I would run domestic kit from 240v.

I understand and agree with what you are saying to a point. However, these tripath (digital amplifiers) are extremely energy efficient, sound great and just happen to have a 12v dc input. If I had my old amp plugged in via an inverter it would be using 30w just to keep itself warm. This thing sounds great from cold and runs that way as well.

[Chalky]

The difference is that the class T amplifier is basically a PWM switch mode power supply that drives the output stage. It relies on the inductances and filtering in the stage to generate the sound. Lots of scope for distortion.

 

Many / all high end hi-fi quality amps use a pair of transistors (or valves) biased into their linear regions. Not so energy efficient (class A is horrendous) however with matched devices they will be significantly more linear.

 

Looking at the circuit board in the ebay advert for automotive grade (i.e. used on a boat / car 12V power supply) I'd expect a different power connector, large inductors on the input to provide filtering and transient suppression, greater separation between input and output circuitry etc. It looks like the power track runs round the edge of the board to a 330uF 25V electrolytic. If this is the main supply capacitor the voltage rating is far too low - needs to be 63V at the minimum, ideally 100V.

The impression is that it's designed to work off it's own regulated 12V power supply. A boat supply can vary between 10V - 14.6V (if everything is ok), 60V under load dump (loose battery connection allowing alternator to dump its max output), reverse battery and then there are the electrical transients produced by other electrical devices switching. If you have a joint started / domestic battery then the range will be from 3v (cold cranking) to 14.6V. Very different from the 12V supply that comes with it.

[wiltshirewonderer]

The difference is that the class T amplifier is basically a PWM switch mode power supply that drives the output stage. It relies on the inductances and filtering in the stage to generate the sound. Lots of scope for distortion.

 

Many / all high end hi-fi quality amps use a pair of transistors (or valves) biased into their linear regions. Not so energy efficient (class A is horrendous) however with matched devices they will be significantly more linear.

 

Looking at the circuit board in the ebay advert for automotive grade (i.e. used on a boat / car 12V power supply) I'd expect a different power connector, large inductors on the input to provide filtering and transient suppression, greater separation between input and output circuitry etc. It looks like the power track runs round the edge of the board to a 330uF 25V electrolytic. If this is the main supply capacitor the voltage rating is far too low - needs to be 63V at the minimum, ideally 100V.

The impression is that it's designed to work off it's own regulated 12V power supply. A boat supply can vary between 10V - 14.6V (if everything is ok), 60V under load dump (loose battery connection allowing alternator to dump its max output), reverse battery and then there are the electrical transients produced by other electrical devices switching. If you have a joint started / domestic battery then the range will be from 3v (cold cranking) to 14.6V. Very different from the 12V supply that comes with it.

Okay. I (think?) I understand the first couple of paragraphs and believe I understand the rest. Your comments make me believe you know a great amount about sound generation via electrikery. What would you recomend to someone that wants efficiency with a decent level of quality?

[Chalky]

Unfortunately all of my experience is in the OEM domain. On the last infotainment system I worked on I was systems architect. We specified the amplifiers, data transports and control classes (last ones I did were MOST based www.mostcooperation.com), control and error management strategies, power management etc.

 

The main point is that the unit isn't designed to be connected to the boat 12V supply. It will work however you will be over stressing it and there is a high probability that it will fail prematurely.

[George94]

I use a Lepai T-Class amp, similar to the Topping but cheaper. Because the digital-analogue converters on most computers are dire, I use an inexpensive Behringer UCA 202 to provide a better signal to the amp. It has USB in and phono out.

 

The amp feeds a couple of old but good B&W bookshelf speakers which were highly regarded in their day. The results are excellent, given the price of the amp and DAC, and I am gradually digitising my entire CD collection, augmented by Radio 3 broadcasts using the splendid Radio Downloader program, which quietly downloads whatever programmes you ask it to, week in, week out.

 

This year is the bi-centenary of both Wagner and Verdi, and thanks to Radio 3 and Downloader I will have free high-quality copies of all their operas by year's end.

 

As I am usually attached to the mains, I have not tried connecting boat supply to the amp. It sounds as though perhaps I should try to smooth the supply, although I never try to listen to music while the engine is starting or running. Thanks for the tip, Chalky.

[DHutch]

It can be half the price if you are willing to lose the remote and USB.

Interesting. The remote is a bit naff looking, and the review say you can press an hold to go though the 99 volume settings, so yes, interesting indeed. Two inputs is always nice, as said below I dont think I would noticed the difference between the onboard DAC and that within my laptop or Mp3 player (an ageing but excellent iRiver HP140).

 

Ulitamtly its not a bad price as it is, even compairing it to second hand hifi amps (which require mains to drive them) so yes.

 

I ran a pair of gale 3020 with a gale sub on the barge great sound the sub makes all the difference.

Did I mention since I moved onto the narrowboat they are for sale?

Fair enough, nothing wrong with a shameless plug, get them up in the for sale area or PM me some details and who knows.

 

At home I have a pair of Whalfdale 9.1's running from a Cambridge Audio A5 amp, with a KEF 30B sub.

Other than the 9.1's it was acquired second hand via ebay, with the total cost being well under £200.

Sounds excellent and if there one thing I miss from home while in this hotel room it might just be that!

 

RMS. Looks like you can get up to 50w per side without the price getting silly. Impressed how cold it runs, my previous hifi (and car stereo's) tended to waste a fair bit of leccy as heat.

I always think putting the back of your hand on something is probably as good a measure of efficiently as anything else and its certainly true your average car radio gets very warm. More power is always good, you can if nothing else, simply not used it all!

 

Running mains stuff from a modern inverter doesn't really add much inefficiency, in fact as chalky mentions trying to get decent HiFi from 12v without previously stepping the voltage up, means you are battling ohmic losses all the way. We run our inverter pretty much all the time we are on the boat and don't notice the battery consumption when its idling. If I were a HiFi fan, I would run domestic kit from 240v.

This is true, although while not a full test, I currently have some 2.1 pc speakers (AntecLansing2100 if anyone cares) running of a 300w MSW inverter and although this works fine of battery powered MP3 player or laptop as soon I plug either in to charge them, or plug it into the Aux out of the car stereo to get some multi-room playback I cannot get rid of a wicked 50hz hum, presumably having formed a good large earth loop.

 

I use a Lepai T-Class amp, similar to the Topping but cheaper. Because the digital-analogue converters on most computers are dire, I use an inexpensive Behringer UCA 202 to provide a better signal to the amp. It has USB in and phono out.

I was of the impression that of late you average onboard sound card is actually really pretty good. Is this comment based on actual experience or handed down information?

 

 

Daniel

[George94]

 

I was of the impression that of late you average onboard sound card is actually really pretty good. Is this comment based on actaul experience or handed down information?

 

 

Daniel

 

My laptop is a cheapish Lenovo. The screen is hopeless in bright light, and the webcam is terrible. It is unlikely that they will have spent much of the budget on sound.

 

The chip used in the Behringer is a highly reputed Burr-Brown device. It sounds much better than the headphone outlet.

 

You get what you pay for.

[Wanted]

I have sacked all of my sound gear and replaced with a couple of these bad boys http://minirigs.co.uk/

 

They are releasing a sub very soon as well.

 

I promise you will not be disappointed. They sound great and last ages between charges.

[DHutch]

I promise you will not be disappointed. They sound great and last ages between charges.

Ive been very impressed of late with this 'small scale' audio, and have considered it for my hotel room during my time in India, but while its seriously impressive for its size pound for pound the quality and room filling is poor compaired to larger (say, bookcase size) speakers.

 

 

Daniel

[wiltshirewonderer]

Unfortunately all of my experience is in the OEM domain. On the last infotainment system I worked on I was systems architect. We specified the amplifiers, data transports and control classes (last ones I did were MOST based www.mostcooperation.com), control and error management strategies, power management etc.

 

The main point is that the unit isn't designed to be connected to the boat 12V supply. It will work however you will be over stressing it and there is a high probability that it will fail prematurely.

 

 

Yes, definitely concerned about this. Hence the question about regulating the DC supply from the batteries. The last time around I bought a couple of DC-to-DC regulators for things like the TV I bought that had a 12v input (But wasn't designed for automotive/boat purposes).

 

Sounds like you have a lot of experience in this domain and possibly a bit of a hifi buff? Out of interest, what hifi setup do you have on your boat? (If you don't mind answering....)

[smileypete]

I can imagine it will get upset with the voltage when charging is taking place. Especially the more modern chargers that use high voltage pulses to de-sulphate. What is the best way (These days) to regulate the voltage and clean the supply?

For something with 12v input, probably a DC-DC converter with 'buck boost' capability, like:

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DC-DC-Converter-QS-1212CCBA-80W-Power-Supply-Auto-Boost-Buck-80W-CC-CV-Charger-i-/360605268754?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item53f5bfbb12

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited June 9, 2013 by smileypete

[Wanted]

Ive been very impressed of late with this 'small scale' audio, and have considered it for my hotel room during my time in India, but while its seriously impressive for its size pound for pound the quality and room filling is poor compaired to larger (say, bookcase size) speakers.

 

 

Daniel

Two of these is plenty in a fifty footer, and I sound better to me than my old JBL control 5s (they were old mind)

[Chris Pink]

Anything sounds better than small JBLs.

Back to the OP, speakers look great, amp looks dodgy.

 

That power connector is not screaming hifi at me and volume on a button with a huge blue LED? Forget it.

 

Get a decent car audio amp to drive the speakers, Alpine are good though in common with others lie about power.

 

Like Wanted I'm a convert to portable sound, in my case a Supertooth Disco I. ( not the II). Lovely sound and you can beam your iphone at it.

[Neil TNC]

On the barge I still went the car audio way with audio.

Alpine head unit and a pair of blown V-12 T-707 power amps I won off ebay for 99p! (Just needed a couple of MOSFET's replaced)

4 x Pioneer TS-A6924i 6" x 9" speakers built into bulkheads, using cupboards as enclosures

Most of the time I play 24bit flac files from back up 3TB hard drive through Win7 laptop using Kernel streaming / Foobar 2000 into Arcam r-PAC DAC* straight into power amps.

Sounds pretty good to my tired old ears, and that is comparing with main home system.

 

Arcam r-PAC DAC*

Beware these do NOT like Win8 and get un-explained usb drop outs.

[George94]

Unfortunately all of my experience is in the OEM domain. On the last infotainment system I worked on I was systems architect. We specified the amplifiers, data transports and control classes (last ones I did were MOST based www.mostcooperation.com), control and error management strategies, power management etc.

 

The main point is that the unit isn't designed to be connected to the boat 12V supply. It will work however you will be over stressing it and there is a high probability that it will fail prematurely.

 

Thinking about this some more, what is the equipment going to object to? High voltages when charging, or low voltages when starting? With the engine off, surely the supply should be pretty stable?