Masterboard for behind fire

[Odana]

Plan for the weekend is to start fitting the new fire. I want to build walls on each side so the stove is safely enclosed on each side as well as at the back - see the pipsqueak stove in this old thread http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=54619. So a fair amount of surround to build

 

As far as I can tell I need to be buying Promat masterboard for this, and I'll then decorative tile it. As masterboard is quite friable, this might all need to have a plywood layer on the outside too for support? Given that masterboard is expensive stuff I want to check we are buying the right stuff.

 

I have found this (various suppliers, but all at least £50 delivered for 8x4 sheet) http://www.travisperkins.co.uk/p/promat-masterboard-2440-x-1220-x-6mm/559000/3893471. Is this the right stuff?

 

 

But there are several other products of varying resistance - http://www.promat.co.uk/products/fire-protection/default.aspx. So now I am confused... Which do I buy?

 

Final question - what is the minimum distance all round from surround to fire? Tis a tiny 15-20cm square fire from ebay - original listing here but he made mine up - would highly recommend bddleboy who did it - and made my flue and connectors to order http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/woodburner-gypsy-stove-/181086089004?ViewItem=&ssPageName=ADME%3AX%3AAAQ%3AGB%3A1123&item=181086089004&nma=true&si=W%252FeQqgr11w0DzjeMy5Kf1lkHrHM%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

[Richard T]

After much searching I found that Midland Chandlers gave the best deal on fire board http://www.midlandchandlers.co.uk/Products/Heating/SolidFuelSparesAccessories/HeatProofing/HS362.aspx These are 1000x610x25mm calcium silicate. These are a bit friable but by predrilling holes fixed them back to timber grounds. They then were tiled - our tiler did some research and found a primer suitable for the board and then used a heat resistant adhesive. The advantage of the MC boards is that they are a manageable size, I cut them using a panel saw, an alternative is to score and snap. I have photos of our installation which I can post if you want to see them.

[blackrose]

Plan for the weekend is to start fitting the new fire. I want to build walls on each side so the stove is safely enclosed on each side as well as at the back - see the pipsqueak stove in this old thread http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=54619. So a fair amount of surround to build

 

As far as I can tell I need to be buying Promat masterboard for this, and I'll then decorative tile it. As masterboard is quite friable, this might all need to have a plywood layer on the outside too for support? Given that masterboard is expensive stuff I want to check we are buying the right stuff.

 

I have found this (various suppliers, but all at least £50 delivered for 8x4 sheet) http://www.travisperkins.co.uk/p/promat-masterboard-2440-x-1220-x-6mm/559000/3893471. Is this the right stuff?

 

 

But there are several other products of varying resistance - http://www.promat.co.uk/products/fire-protection/default.aspx. So now I am confused... Which do I buy?

 

Final question - what is the minimum distance all round from surround to fire? Tis a tiny 15-20cm square fire from ebay - original listing here but he made mine up - would highly recommend bddleboy who did it - and made my flue and connectors to order http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/woodburner-gypsy-stove-/181086089004?ViewItem=&ssPageName=ADME%3AX%3AAAQ%3AGB%3A1123&item=181086089004&nma=true&si=W%252FeQqgr11w0DzjeMy5Kf1lkHrHM%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

I don't know which product you should buy (I used masterboard), but for gawdsake don't put ply over the top or you will be back to square one!

 

To tile it, either prime the board with PVA (or some other porus surface primer) and then tile as usual with a flexible tile adhesive & grout, or don't bother priming the board and use a blob of heat-resistant silicone in each corner of the tiles (plus a blob in the middle for big tiles) and stick them on. If you use silicone you'll have to tile 1 row at a time starting at the bottom and let each row set for half an hour before continuing with the next row. Then you can just grout as normal.

 

The other option is to use a decorative metal finish over the board, such as this copper-effect anodised aluminium which I added border tiles to.

 

 

 

As for clearances between the stove an an flammable materials - your stove should have come with some installation specifications?

Edited May 28, 2013 by blackrose

[nipper]

Plan for the weekend is to start fitting the new fire. I want to build walls on each side so the stove is safely enclosed on each side as well as at the back - see the pipsqueak stove in this old thread http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=54619. So a fair amount of surround to build

 

As far as I can tell I need to be buying Promat masterboard for this, and I'll then decorative tile it. As masterboard is quite friable, this might all need to have a plywood layer on the outside too for support? Given that masterboard is expensive stuff I want to check we are buying the right stuff.

 

I have found this (various suppliers, but all at least £50 delivered for 8x4 sheet) http://www.travisperkins.co.uk/p/promat-masterboard-2440-x-1220-x-6mm/559000/3893471. Is this the right stuff?

 

 

But there are several other products of varying resistance - http://www.promat.co.uk/products/fire-protection/default.aspx. So now I am confused... Which do I buy?

 

Final question - what is the minimum distance all round from surround to fire? Tis a tiny 15-20cm square fire from ebay - original listing here but he made mine up - would highly recommend bddleboy who did it - and made my flue and connectors to order http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/woodburner-gypsy-stove-/181086089004?ViewItem=&ssPageName=ADME%3AX%3AAAQ%3AGB%3A1123&item=181086089004&nma=true&si=W%252FeQqgr11w0DzjeMy5Kf1lkHrHM%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Midland Chandlers is the place to purchase the board, it's very lightweight, fixes like a dream, can be cut however you want, and a couple of coats of PVA will aid the tile adhesive!

Nipper

 

edited cus i cant spell!

Edited May 28, 2013 by nipper

[BlueStringPudding]

I do like that little stove in its unpainted steel state. Very funky.

[Rob@BSSOffice]

Final question - what is the minimum distance all round from surround to fire? Tis a tiny 15-20cm square fire from ebay - original listing here but he made mine up - would highly recommend bddleboy who did it - and made my flue and connectors to order http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/woodburner-gypsy-stove-/181086089004?ViewItem=&ssPageName=ADME%3AX%3AAAQ%3AGB%3A1123&item=181086089004&nma=true&si=W%252FeQqgr11w0DzjeMy5Kf1lkHrHM%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

Without demeaning the very knowledgeable members of this forum, this is not a question we should answer.

 

This is a question only for your supplier. It will depend on the output rating of the stove and whether there are any firebricks.

 

Your supplier has an obligation to give you this information as he/she is advertising the stove as suitable for boats and therefore has a duty of care to you the customer.

 

Do not accept anything less.

 

For my own assurance, if it was me, I would want to see clear references to BS8511:2010 (CoP Installation of Stoves in Small Craft) featuring in those instructions. (more info here )

[Odana]

I don't know which product you should buy (I used masterboard), but for gawdsake don't put ply over the top or you will be back to square one!

 

As for clearances between the stove an an flammable materials - your stove should have come with some installation specifications?

 

Don't worry - the frame to attach masterboard (or whatever) to has to be made - I'm not putting wood on the fire side! if there are 'sides' to the surround it needs to be made of something a bit sturdier than a sheet of 6mm masterboard or it;ll break in no time.

 

Without demeaning the very knowledgeable members of this forum, this is not a question we should answer.

 

This is a question only for your supplier. It will depend on the output rating of the stove and whether there are any firebricks.

 

Your supplier has an obligation to give you this information as he/she is advertising the stove as suitable for boats and therefore has a duty of care to you the customer.

 

Do not accept anything less.

 

For my own assurance, if it was me, I would want to see clear references to BS8511:2010 (CoP Installation of Stoves in Small Craft) featuring in those instructions. (more info here )

 

These fires are home-made and fairly common on ebay - never thought about BS specs at the time. No BS approval or full spec - it is about 2kw with no fire bricks (no space!) It is because I don't have these details that I want to be very belt'n'braces about the installation.

 

Seems to be that masterboard is OK, with tiles over, and a rockwool-filled gap behind between that and any other wood casing so I have a decent heat-resistant surround. I plan on leaving a min of 10cm clearance all round between fire and tiles, which is more than I've seen on many bigger fires.

 

Useful guide thank you Rob. How many fires are installed in boats that can't be fitted with to the manufacturer recommendations because it is on a boat? I've seen some scary installations in the past and want to avoid anything similar! i am suitably paranoid about fire.

[bowten]

Have a look how I have fitted my stove in my build blog,just click on 'The building of Tenacious' and have a look through the piccies.

[Odana]

Too distracted looking at gorgeous boat to focus on fire... Nice job!!

[smileypete]

As well as Masterboard there's cement boards like Aquapanel and Hardibacker:

 

http://www.wickes.co.uk/invt/220561

http://www.toppstiles.co.uk/tprod3920/section1061/Hardiebacker-500-Cement-Board-12mm.html

 

They have good fire resistance, (Hardibacker is often used for tiled fireplace surrounds) and though much stronger and cheaper than Masterboard are a bit harder to work with being cement based. Also they conduct heat quite well so an airgap and/or rockwall behind is worth doing.

 

As far as priming the boards with something before tiling it'd be worth calling the helpline for the tile cement and asking them, also check if the tile cement is OK with heat.

 

If there's no firebricks in the fire then it'd be OK for wood only and not suitable for coal and smokeless fuel.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited May 29, 2013 by smileypete

[blackrose]

.... How many fires are installed in boats that can't be fitted with to the manufacturer recommendations because it is on a boat? I've seen some scary installations in the past and want to avoid anything similar! i am suitably paranoid about fire.

 

You will probably never meet every criteria laid out in most manufacturer's installation instructions, because most stoves were never designed for boats. However, you've got to do what you can, and minimum distance from the stove to flammable surroundings is one that's worth making an effort on.

Edited May 29, 2013 by blackrose

[Richard T]

Hardibacker is often used for tiled fireplace surrounds

I checked on the FR on this board - only good for 100deg C so no use for surrounds to a stove but OK for hearth for a Morso. Cementitous board has little insulation properties -but it does not burn. To satisfy the requirements for installation 25mm of calcium silicate board is required. The link provided by Rob is the guide and should be followed.

[alan_fincher]

As far as priming the boards with something before tiling it'd be worth calling the helpline for the tile cement and asking them, also check if the tile cement is OK with heat.

Been there, done that.....

 

Specialist supplier advice, specialist glue, specialist additive, instructions followed to the letter.......

 

Tiles falling off within weeks.....

 

Asked on forum......

 

General advice was to bed each tile onto a few blobs of high temperature silicone, (no priming), which we did......

 

Tiles have stayed firmly stuck ever since!

 

My advice - ask here - not tile specialists, even the suppliers of the products!

[Odana]

I checked on the FR on this board - only good for 100deg C so no use for surrounds to a stove but OK for hearth for a Morso. Cementitous board has little insulation properties -but it does not burn. To satisfy the requirements for installation 25mm of calcium silicate board is required. The link provided by Rob is the guide and should be followed.

Is calcium silicate board the same as masterboard ?

[onionbargee]

Definitely no ply or timber behind the masterboard, or within 4 inches of the stove, 6 would be better. Also if you box it in the heat won't radiate out into the rest of the cabin very well.

 

Imagine you go out and leave the air control open, easily done ,and the stove goes full blast for a couple of hours, you should plan the stove area to withstand this.

[smileypete]

I checked on the FR on this board - only good for 100deg C so no use for surrounds to a stove but OK for hearth for a Morso. Cementitous board has little insulation properties -but it does not burn.

I'm surprised that it's only good for 100C, got a linky for that?

 

Been there, done that.....

 

Specialist supplier advice, specialist glue, specialist additive, instructions followed to the letter.......

 

Tiles falling off within weeks.....

 

Asked on forum......

 

General advice was to bed each tile onto a few blobs of high temperature silicone, (no priming), which we did......

 

Tiles have stayed firmly stuck ever since!

 

My advice - ask here - not tile specialists, even the suppliers of the products!

Difficult to say without knowing more, what supplier advised you and what got used originally?

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

[smileypete]

Been there, done that.....

 

Specialist supplier advice, specialist glue, specialist additive, instructions followed to the letter.......

 

Tiles falling off within weeks.....

 

Asked on forum......

 

General advice was to bed each tile onto a few blobs of high temperature silicone, (no priming), which we did......

 

Tiles have stayed firmly stuck ever since!

 

My advice - ask here - not tile specialists, even the suppliers of the products!

Right, found it, plus a couple of other relevant threads:

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=34619

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=50450

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=35527

 

I only mentioned about checking with the manufacturer as there were some recommendations for PVA, and in some situations PVA doesn't work out if it's not used in the right way. The UK tilers forum is another good source of info.

 

As for the cement type boards apparently Hardibacker has some cellulose in it whereas Aquapanel is just cement reinforced with fibreglass so would be better out of the two. Masterboard is better still though, a local stove shop might have some left over offcuts going cheap/free.

 

Also came across a linky with some info on boat stove installs which might help Odana, though it's not the whole BS CoP:

 

http://www.soliftec.com/Installation.htm

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited May 30, 2013 by smileypete

[Odana]

Right, found it, plus a couple of other relevant threads:

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=34619

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=50450

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=35527

 

I only mentioned about checking with the manufacturer as there were some recommendations for PVA, and in some situations PVA doesn't work out if it's not used in the right way. The UK tilers forum is another good source of info.

 

As for the cement type boards apparently Hardibacker has some cellulose in it whereas Aquapanel is just cement reinforced with fibreglass so would be better out of the two. Masterboard is better still though, a local stove shop might have some left over offcuts going cheap/free.

 

Also came across a linky with some info on boat stove installs which might help Odana, though it's not the whole BS CoP:

 

http://www.soliftec.com/Installation.htm

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

 

Splendid set of links - thankyou!!

[Richard T]

I'm surprised that it's only good for 100C, got a linky for that?

 

Difficult to say without knowing more, what supplier advised you and what got used originally?

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Sorry no I rang them as there was nothing on the web site. Hardibacker is manufactured and sold as a tiling backing for wet rooms. You can get it at B&Q

 

Odana - Masterboard is calcium silicate at Sheffield Insulation or SIG as they are now called its £100+vat for an 8x4x12mm sheet which you would have to use two thicknesses of to satisfy the requirements of the guidance.http://www.insulationexpress.co.uk/PROMAT-UK/Promat-MASTERBOARD-Fire-Protection-Board.htm. Midand Chandlers are still the best deal for the board and its in manageable sized sheets.

[wonderdust]

http://www.jameshardie.co.uk/certifications fire rating

[Richard T]

http://www.jameshardie.co.uk/certifications fire rating

All this does is state that it is a non-combustible board which is totally different from its insulation values. To satisfy the requirements the board used does not have to allow heat to pass through it so preventing combustible material reaching temperatures at which they will ignite.

For comparison steel is non-combustible but it does not prevent heat passing through it and igniting combustible material - the same applies to Hardiebacker board.

[wonderdust]

Never said it did i just provided a link that others could follow if they wanted to!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[smileypete]

Sorry no I rang them as there was nothing on the web site. Hardibacker is manufactured and sold as a tiling backing for wet rooms. You can get it at B&Q

 

Odana - Masterboard is calcium silicate at Sheffield Insulation or SIG as they are now called its £100+vat for an 8x4x12mm sheet which you would have to use two thicknesses of to satisfy the requirements of the guidance.http://www.insulationexpress.co.uk/PROMAT-UK/Promat-MASTERBOARD-Fire-Protection-Board.htm. Midand Chandlers are still the best deal for the board and its in manageable sized sheets.

Had a look around for similar data on Masterboard and all I could find said 'It is is resistant to continuous operating temperatures up to 80°C.'

 

http://intumex-ap.com/product_masterboard.html

 

Can't find anything to say that on the UK site though they do say exactly the same for Supalux which is probably a bit superior to Masterboard:

 

http://www.promat.co.uk/news/default.aspx/12

 

Did find a PDF MSDS for Masterboard which indicates it contains cellulose fibre:

 

https://www.cousinsuk.com/PDF/products/475_S8594,%205,%206%20-%20Promat%20Masterboard%20HS.pdf

 

Interestingly Portland cement itself contains a high proportion of Calcium Silicates, so a normal cement board may well contain a high proportion of it:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portland_cement

 

Never the less, it appears that Masterboard, Aquapanel, and Hardibacker are very widely used for lining fireplaces round stoves, with little reports of any problems, so they're all likely to work fine. Aquapanel uses fibreglass reinforcing, so it's probably the strongest of the three.

 

Whatever is used I think it'd be well worth spacing the tiles apart a little and grouting with an extra flexible grout, that way if they expand they won't stress the substrate behind them so much. Maybe dampen the board too before tiling to reduce 'suction'.

 

ETA I did earlier also mention an air gap and/or rockwall behind the cement board would be worth doing, as the cement board conducts heat quite well. The Soliftec linky I provided later backs this up, saying:

 

Heat PROTECTION PANELS

Stoves and uninsulated flue pipes can easily get hot enough to set fire to paint, wood or

other combustibles a distance away. A single fireproof panel fastened straight to a wall is no

use – heat can pass straight through it. One way of making a good protection panel is

to have: a 10mm air gap (supported on offcuts), then 25mm thick calcium silicate board (which can be tiled) then at least a 45mm gap to the stove body, all extending at least 200mm above the stove. (7) (By the way, this construction can be used as the hearth underneath a stove with legs,

 

Personally, I'd go for a much bigger airgap and fill with rockwool, as any heat going through the back wall around the stove is going to end up where it's not needed.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited May 30, 2013 by smileypete