Red Diesel Latest

[Grumpy Bear]

The RYA has published this press release today on its website:

 

 

Following talks with HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) yesterday (26 July) it looks possible that changes in the pricing of marine diesel will not have an adverse affect on its availability to recreational boaters.

 

HMRC have prepared a number of options for the implementation of the new regime for duty payments on red diesel used by private recreational craft. According to officials, its preferred option is to retain the red diesel pumps for both recreational boaters and commercial operators to use. Recreational boaters will have to pay the full duty rate. Commercial operators will continue to get the current reduced and exempt rates of duty.

 

Speaking today Neil Northmore, RYA Government Affairs Adviser said: “This is good news for recreational boating. HMRC have taken on board all the key issues that we presented to them including tank cleaning, availability and safety issues, and have incorporated them into the proposed options. Their preferred option takes direct account of the concerns that we have voiced over availability”.

 

A public consultation process will open sometime in the week commencing 30 July which will lay out all the options. Members of the public, boating organisations and the marine industry will be invited to make their comments.

 

A link will be set up on the RYA website to the Governments site once the consultation has opened.

 

The RYA and BMF (British Marine Federation) have asked for a full explanation as to why recreational boaters must pay the full road duty rate for marine diesel and HMRC have agreed to provide this. (RYA 27Jul07)

[StephenA]

Silly question but....

 

If boats fill up with Red then how can anyone tell that they have paid any "extra" duty on it at all.

 

If Fred runs a big commercial boat and buys fuel at say 50ppl but it costs me 90ppl then what is to stop Fred filling up and then selling some to me at 70ppl?

 

Fred makes some more profit and I pay less per litre and there is no way anyone can prove anything - so its a win/win situation (well for Fred and me it is - the government looses out but....)

[carlt]

Silly question but....

 

If boats fill up with Red then how can anyone tell that they have paid any "extra" duty on it at all.

 

If Fred runs a big commercial boat and buys fuel at say 50ppl but it costs me 90ppl then what is to stop Fred filling up and then selling some to me at 70ppl?

 

Fred makes some more profit and I pay less per litre and there is no way anyone can prove anything - so its a win/win situation (well for Fred and me it is - the government looses out but....)

Nothing to stop it happening at all. Like most illegal activities, there'll be people devising foolproof systems already.

[David]

Hi

Lets hope that release stands, many of us have already commented that our Goverment did not want this not because they did'nt want extra money of us, but because it would cost more to collect and police, would cause untold problems in implimentation etc etc. That release sounds as if at last they are "using" the EU like the French, just paying lip service to anything which they don't like and letting their people carry on as they like.

So unless the Gov' put loads and loads of money and effort into policing with mountains of red tape and paperwork, permits and licences, under cover agents etc etc you should still be able to buy red at todays rate and only you will commit an offence if you accidentally put it into your engine fuel tank and not the generator you told the man on the pump it was for. The Revenue police road fuel for cars etc with vigour because the potential loss of revenue is billions of £, the loss by pleasure boat avoidance is at best miniscule.

So if you can get red by the nod and wink method and very little checking is done in my opinion you are are only carrying on a great EU tradition so good luck.

 

By the way on the Fred method in the post from STEPHENA last year in mid Wales a chap was found to be buying i think about 4000 Lt a month of red when checked he only had a small diesel genny, at the same time spot checks found loads of local diesel cars running on red. It came to light when the the fuel suppliers had a visit from the Revenue and looked who they supplied. The best part being the "Fred" got away with it as they could not prove he had sold it on, but the car owners all got fined.

david

[Tootles]

Ahhhhh......Isnt it strange that when the day looks black and grim, a beam of the purest sunlight spears through to illuminate your life.......

 

Now, where did I put those 45gallon drums??

[CanalWalker]

They should make it clear that this only affects recreational boaters with diesel engines and not those with petrol engines. Why should one pay less tax than the other? If boaters with diesel engines are given a tax break those with petrol engines should get the same. I dont see why recreational boaters should be given a tax break anyway.

[Machpoint005]

Why should one pay less tax than the other? If boaters with diesel engines are given a tax break those with petrol engines should get the same.

This is one of the most sensible points I've seen here for several days! It's not to my (economic) advantage but the man is right.

 

Ian

[carlt]

They should make it clear that this only affects recreational boaters with diesel engines and not those with petrol engines. Why should one pay less tax than the other? If boaters with diesel engines are given a tax break those with petrol engines should get the same. I dont see why recreational boaters should be given a tax break anyway.

Couldn't agree more. Let's come into line with Europe's taxation on fuel for boats and cars, then we'll all be better off (well those of us with cars, anyway).

[Djuwenda]

Couldn't agree more. Let's come into line with Europe's taxation on fuel for boats and cars, then we'll all be better off (well those of us with cars, anyway).

 

It is happening as we speak...

 

Europe is coming in line with the UK

 

Happy?

[carlt]

It is happening as we speak...

 

Europe is coming in line with the UK

 

Happy?

If we scrap the road fund tax, reduce the fuel tax to european levels and build and maintain the transport networks to European standards then yes, I will be.

Edited July 27, 2007 by carlt

[Tootles]

Thats because petrol is petrol, uncolored and multi-functional. Cheap petrol for a boat would be untraceable in a car. A non-runner I suspect, even though I agree strongly with redstarafloat on this issue. They did use dye in fuel during and after the last war, but just how much volume of the total petrol sales these days goes into boats, and would it be worth adding said dye??

[Djuwenda]

If we scrap the road fund tax, reduce the fuel tax to european levels and build and maintain the transport networks to European standards then yes, I will be.

 

Other European countries are increasing their fuel prices faster than the UK so that prices come into line eventually.

 

Why do you think so many young french people come to the UK? because the roads are poor? no because there is employement and a strong economy driving it, because they wont have to pay 50% + income tax should they be lucky enough to earn more than about £28k per annum.

 

They also like the transparency of the UK Paye As You Earn and not having to save up for 12 months so they can pay the taxman off at the end of the year.

 

You keep coming back to the same few elements which I think are inaccurate every time the UK situation is discussed. The points you are making would have more weight if you were making them from your French place where you had been living for 10 years.

[Machpoint005]

A public consultation process will open sometime in the week commencing 30 July which will lay out all the options. Members of the public, boating organisations and the marine industry will be invited to make their comments.

 

A link will be set up on the RYA website to the Governments site once the consultation has opened.

 

Just to get back to the topic, can we at least wait and see before idle speculation brings on further apoplexy?

 

Ian

[anhar]

Something makes no sense to me in the RYA press release if I understand it correctly. If we are to pay the fully taxed price for red, then why do we want it at all in that case? It is inferior to road fuel, not merely dyed, something to do with sulphur or whatever. But it is inferior I believe, one effect of which for example is to foul up Eberspacher diesel boilers which run okay on white.

 

So why is this "good news" for boaters as the RYA claims. If I'm paying full whack I want white not the agricultural red crap.

 

Perhaps I'm missing something and the fully taxed red will still be cheaper than DERV. But if not, or not significantly so, then why on earth would we continue to want red instead of the superior white?

 

regards

Steve

[cugsey]

whats so great about france

their economy is in a mess and has been for years

industry propped up by government money

i agree most of the bright young french things are fleeing to these shores

[Gary Peacock]

Following talks with HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC)

 

On a previous round of talks between the BMF and customs on a different matter all the right noises were made and then customs did exactly what they pleased completely ignoring what went on in the "talks"!

 

I think we all know how this is all likely to end too.

[Tootles]

Something makes no sense to me in the RYA press release if I understand it correctly. If we are to pay the fully taxed price for red, then why do we want it at all in that case? It is inferior to road fuel, not merely dyed, something to do with sulphur or whatever. But it is inferior I believe, one effect of which for example is to foul up Eberspacher diesel boilers which run okay on white.

 

So why is this "good news" for boaters as the RYA claims. If I'm paying full whack I want white not the agricultural red crap.

 

Perhaps I'm missing something and the fully taxed red will still be cheaper than DERV. But if not, or not significantly so, then why on earth would we continue to want red instead of the superior white?

 

regards

Steve

 

The Eberspacher probably does run better on white, but most of the 'Old Dutch' and 'Bubble Stoves' wont. The chemical's added to white are not meant to burn as an open flame, and apparently can give off some pretty nasty fumes.

[Dave-Shrop]

The RYA has published this press release today on its website:

Following talks with HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) yesterday (26 July) it looks possible that changes in the pricing of marine diesel will not have an adverse affect on its availability to recreational boaters.

 

HMRC have prepared a number of options for the implementation of the new regime for duty payments on red diesel used by private recreational craft. According to officials, its preferred option is to retain the red diesel pumps for both recreational boaters and commercial operators to use. Recreational boaters will have to pay the full duty rate. Commercial operators will continue to get the current reduced and exempt rates of duty.

 

Speaking today Neil Northmore, RYA Government Affairs Adviser said: “This is good news for recreational boating. HMRC have taken on board all the key issues that we presented to them including tank cleaning, availability and safety issues, and have incorporated them into the proposed options. Their preferred option takes direct account of the concerns that we have voiced over availability”.

 

A public consultation process will open sometime in the week commencing 30 July which will lay out all the options. Members of the public, boating organisations and the marine industry will be invited to make their comments.

 

A link will be set up on the RYA website to the Governments site once the consultation has opened.

 

The RYA and BMF (British Marine Federation) have asked for a full explanation as to why recreational boaters must pay the full road duty rate for marine diesel and HMRC have agreed to provide this. (RYA 27Jul07)

 

 

Will the current reduced and exempt rates of duty still be available for heating and generating electricity?

 

David

[anhar]

The Eberspacher probably does run better on white, but most of the 'Old Dutch' and 'Bubble Stoves' wont. The chemical's added to white are not meant to burn as an open flame, and apparently can give off some pretty nasty fumes.

Maybe Tootles but this wasn't my main point. What I was asking was why, if the price of red rises to that of DERV, canal boaters will continue to want red at all. The Eberspacher was just an example of where white is preferable, you've mentioned heaters where it is not, but generally, given that engines are the primary use of the fuel, why would the RYA find it good that red will continue to be sold at all on the canals if it is not cheaper than white after the new tax regime is introduced? Isn't white better than red for engines and the environment?

 

regards

Steve

Edited July 28, 2007 by anhar

[Nic]

Will the current reduced and exempt rates of duty still be available for heating and generating electricity?

 

David

I knew about the exemption for heating - and there's many boaters with single tanks used for both engine and heating system who are wondering how they get the ratio.

 

My boat doesn't have diesel heating, but it runs internal electrics (both 12v and 240v via an inverter) from a battery bank that's charged up with the diesel engine - so surely I qualify

 

After all if I'm not moving but onboard for several days (like when I was stuck in ice in Banbury Easter last year) then I do need to run the engine for a few hours to keep the batteries topped up!

[Tootles]

Maybe Tootles but this wasn't my main point. What I was asking was why, if the price of red rises to that of DERV, canal boaters will continue to want red at all. The Eberspacher was just an example of where white is preferable, you've mentioned heaters where it is not, but generally, given that engines are the primary use of the fuel, why would the RYA find it good that red will continue to be sold at all on the canals if it is not cheaper than white after the new tax regime is introduced? Isn't white better than red for engines and the environment?

 

regards

Steve

Because as a heating fuel it attracts less VAT then a propulsion fuel. Not sure of the going rate, but I think it's about 8%?? I run an LPG car, but I pay full VAT on the gas, which is why it's not legal to connect a bottle up in the back. Bottled gas for heating/cooking is taxed differently.

Edited July 28, 2007 by Tootles

[chris w]

I happened to be at a party today and amazingly I met a guy who runs a marina and who sells red diesel.

 

Two points came out of our discussion:

 

1. If HMG disallow red diesel on the canal for pleasure boats after Nov 2008, he will stop selling any diesel as the changeover cost to white diesel (he estimated £20K to make all the changes to pumps and tanks etc) is not financially viable.

 

2. He cautioned that some marinas do not sell true red diesel but 28sec gasoil (ie: heating oil) which can have adverse effects in, for example, Eberspacher heaters.

 

Chris

[carlt]

Other European countries are increasing their fuel prices faster than the UK so that prices come into line eventually.

 

Why do you think so many young french people come to the UK? because the roads are poor? no because there is employement and a strong economy driving it, because they wont have to pay 50% + income tax should they be lucky enough to earn more than about £28k per annum.

 

They also like the transparency of the UK Paye As You Earn and not having to save up for 12 months so they can pay the taxman off at the end of the year.

 

You keep coming back to the same few elements which I think are inaccurate every time the UK situation is discussed. The points you are making would have more weight if you were making them from your French place where you had been living for 10 years.

Surprisingly I only mention France after someone else makes the assumption I was talking about France. It's not the only country I've lived in and not the only place I have knowledge of.

 

Funnily enough the only elements I mention are those relevant to the topic of fuelprices (until asked to defend other areas). I have said previously that I have no knowledge of French income tax, I have never paid it.

 

On the subject of Fuel, the only 'element' I was mentioning, the fact that the roads are better, the local tax is cheaper, fuel tax is cheaper and there is no road fund licence is relevant (and accurate). You telling me that young french folk want to come and live here because they don't get an annual tax bill isn't.

Edited July 30, 2007 by carlt

[RichardH]

It is happening as we speak...

 

Europe is coming in line with the UK

 

Happy?

 

Just arrived back from Germany - Petrol 1.36 Euro's which is the around 91p per litre

 

Diesel is still a slightly better deal at 1.1 Euro p/l

[Kingken]

Nothing to stop it happening at all. Like most illegal activities, there'll be people devising foolproof systems already.

 

 

Every outlet that sells gas oil (red diesel) has to send in a monthly return to Customs & Excise of how many customers he has sold it to and how much to each customer, I am sure they will incorporate into the return a seperate column for private and commercial sales, with all the details of the commercial entity that it has been sold to.