Webasto\Eberspacher 4 or 5 KW?

[blackrose]

9 hours ago, WotEver said:

 

As long as they’re not faulty of course

 

The reason the engineer swapped ours was that despite it being permanently turned up full (so why did I fit it in the first place?) it had stuck itself into the minimum position. 

I don't think mine are faulty. The rads used to get hot. But if they're faulty pulling the tops off isn't going to fix them. ?

[TheBiscuits]

5 hours ago, blackrose said:

I don't think mine are faulty. The rads used to get hot. But if they're faulty pulling the tops off isn't going to fix them. ?

If you unscrew the plastic part of the valve and wiggle the valve top itself with a pair of mole grips it should move up into the fully open position.  You can then reattach the top for appearance sake but not screw it all the way down  The thermostatic valve won't do anything at that point, but the rads should get hot.

[Johny London]

I had one of those mp and h kits off ebay. No problems at all so far. What I would say is that you will need to buy a large amount of extra bits and pieces, so try to prepare in advance so you have everything to hand for the install. See if you can find my thread from a year ago.

Get the special copper pipe - a company I got it from will cut it and flare it for you (three lengths will be what you need) and get the fuel filter and a special coupling to the tank whereby you bend some pipe and fit it through to make the stand pipe. There were "odd" sized hoses with unusual couplings too, plus loads of other bits - again, do trawl through my old post - some very good advice from other boaters there.

Don't go open vented - pressurised is easier than it sounds - just a couple of special valves needed fitting - though there is slight contradiction about these in the Webasto installation manual. (Again should be a link to the manual in my old thread I think). DO plumb it so that you can leave one rad on permanently (just need a lever valve after). DONT use thermostatic valves - just get the cheap and simple chrome ones from toolstation/screwfix.

Time to get cracking - winters on its way!

Good luck.

[Alan de Enfield]

On ‎04‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 18:52, Robbo said:

Presumably not a PJ version.

Is that for use in bedrooms ?

[blackrose]

2 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

If you unscrew the plastic part of the valve and wiggle the valve top itself with a pair of mole grips it should move up into the fully open position.  You can then reattach the top for appearance sake but not screw it all the way down  The thermostatic valve won't do anything at that point, but the rads should get hot.

Surely the valve is already in the fully open position set to number 5?

 

[Motters79]

2 hours ago, Johny London said:

 

Don't go open vented - pressurised is easier than it sounds - just a couple of special valves needed fitting - though there is slight contradiction about these in the Webasto installation manual.

 

Dont you also need an expansion vessel with a gas filled bladder if you go pressurised? I agree though it looks pretty  simple and is probably way easier to bleed the air out of the system.

 

I'm gonna have a look for your thread. Do you remember the title?

[TheBiscuits]

55 minutes ago, blackrose said:

Surely the valve is already in the fully open position set to number 5?

Not usually when they fail.

The thermostatic bit is inside that white housing, and presses a plunger in the metal valve body.  Unscrew the plastic housing (there's a screw collar on the bottom of it) and you will see the actual valve.  That tends to get stuck in the closed (fully depressed) position.

 

If they are stuck shut, it doesn't matter what position you set the plastic top to, it makes no difference to the valve, which stays shut.

 

[WotEver]

13 hours ago, blackrose said:

I don't think mine are faulty. The rads used to get hot. But if they're faulty pulling the tops off isn't going to fix them. ?

It won’t fix them no, but it will leave the valve fully open. 

[TheBiscuits]

9 minutes ago, WotEver said:

It won’t fix them no, but it will leave the valve fully open. 

Yes, for clarity the valve won't be "fixed" but the radiator will work.  It's why I don't fit TRVs on a boat - just simple valves so you can manually adjust flow rates through each radiator.

[Johny London]

On 08/09/2018 at 14:56, Motters79 said:

 

Dont you also need an expansion vessel with a gas filled bladder if you go pressurised? I agree though it looks pretty  simple and is probably way easier to bleed the air out of the system.

 

I'm gonna have a look for your thread. Do you remember the title?

Hi yes - you do need an expansion vessel, they are not very expensive though, so shop around, You can also get a kit that is a pressure gauge and pressure valve thing - if you just fit that you should be ok but I went belt and braces and had an extra valve within 300mm of the heater itself, as per the instructions. The Instructions are by and large very thorough, but there is a confusion over what they refer to as the two different knids of valve they are using.

My thread: 

  As you will see, NMEA is the authority, but you do have to know what questions to ask. A particularly neat way to do the install would be to do as he suggested with bulkhead fittings for the hoses from the heater, then everything else just inside the boat. Mine, lots of plumbing - including the pressure gauge - in the engine bay. Also - use copper and compression joints - I used plastic pipe/push fit - it's rubbish. 

[RichM]

Also in the market for a new Eberspacher D4 hydronic to replace my old D5. The plan being to make the D4 work harder, less likely to coke up and thus less reliability issues. I hope! What would one expect to pay for a new D4 without installation kit from somewhere reputable?

[Motters79]

3 hours ago, Johny London said:

 

A particularly neat way to do the install would be to do as he suggested with bulkhead fittings for the hoses from the heater, then everything else just inside the boat. Mine, lots of plumbing - including the pressure gauge - in the engine bay. Also - use copper and compression joints - I used plastic pipe/push fit - it's rubbish. 

Thanks Johnny! I've just spent an hour reading through your thread! Certainly was epic, but you were asking all the questions that would probably ask so it is very informative. I think I understand what needs to be done.  The bulkhead fittings do sound a good idea but my Calorifier is in the engine room above the floor so I'd have to run the the pipes back through the bulkhead. Not impossible. 

 

Like you, I've gone for a reconditioned unit from MP &  H on EBay, (am I right about that? I know MrSmelly did) which doesn't have all the right bits, so I'll need to get all that. Can you remember where you got your fuel pipe and which rubber hose you used to connect from the heater to the 22mm spine tails? Also which rubber noggins did you use for mounting the heater?

 

No doubt I'll have more questions for you (and anyone else who's in the know, NMEA etc)

 

Thanks mate. Oh, I'd love to see some pics of your install!

[Johny London]

It's good to be able to offer advice instead of asking questions!

Just having a look through my purchased items on ebay, I can see all the odds and ends I got but going through them a lot of the sellers don't have the relevant parts any more so you will have to have a good browse. I did find the following though:

 

Rubber noggins: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4-x-Anti-VIBRATION-AV-RUBBER-BOBBIN-MOUNTS-M6-Radio-Controlled-Models/302449144303

 

Exhaust skin fitting: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Exhaust-outlet-22mm-for-webasto-heaters-stainless-steel-polished-eberspacher-d2/173515283564?hash=item2866511c6c:g:CzQAAOSwNZtZ2JMM

Clips for the fuel pipe: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/P-Clips-Steel-Rubber-Lined-Fixings-Black-Wiring-Pipe-Fuel-Car-Auto-Van-DIY/112338157501?hash=item1a27e03fbd:m:m_DI-SCgAwnR5PWFAF7k9Jg

 

Hose: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rubber-EPDM-SAEJ20R3-Radiator-Hose-Car-Heater-Coolant-Engine-Water-Pipe/200982593996?hash=item2ecb7f01cc:m:mnQ9xwYS99YltQ2IkqmR-lg Think it was 19mm but NMEA can advise

 

The adaptors to get from the hose: 3/4 BSPT x 3/4 inch (19mm) Brass Hose Tail £7.95

 

The extra pressure valve I bought was: 

3 BAR ALTECNIC CALEFFI PRESSURE RELIEF SAFETY VALVE 1/2"Fl x 1/2"Fl BSP (311430) £5.95 

 

Extra hose clamps: ASH Hose Clamps Heavy Duty Exhaust Hex Screw New T Bolt Stainless Steel from autosiliconehoses_outlet £3 for 3.

 

I also bought a kit from a local plumbers merchants called something like "combi kit" or "pressurised system kit" which was the gauge on a special fitting with fill loop and a pressure valve (there are two types of valves used - can't remember the ins and outs of it now).

 

The expansion thingy I think I got from toolstation, with a fixing kit which is a metal band and a clamp or something. It was small - maybe 5-8 litre or something.

 

There was something else that went with the 19mm brass hose couplings - think it was like adaptor rings or something.

 

Fuel pipe was a specialist not from ebay - will try to find it but they will cut and flare it for you... pricey though.

 

Anything else just ask!

Edited September 11, 2018 by Johny London

[Johny London]

Bit more info...

mp_and_h (ebay) Webasto Thermo top C kit £380   Plumb Inn (Enfield) Evolve ¾ sealed system pack £13.97 Auto Air Vent, bottle £8.93 VAT £4.58 Total: £27.48   Toolstation Angled radiator valve 15mm (x10) £25.70 (these are the non thermostatic).   leebob (ebay) FAG filter for Webasto £25.00   shopmp (ebay) Webasto silencer £24.99   clubbyal (ebay) rubber bobbins x4 £5.49   13/12/17 Plumb Inn Zilmet expansion vessel 8 litre £11.94 Zilmet mounting bracket £4.20 VAT £3.23 Total: £19.37   Toolstation Lever ball valve 22mm red (x2) £11.34   Heaterpartsdirect (ebay) Webasto exhaust 22mmx0.5m 9.25   southerniasers2012 (ebay) Webasto exhaust outlet £35.00   euroboilerparts (ebay) 3 bar pressure relief valve £5.95   autosiliconehoses_outlet (ebay) 1 m silicon hose 22mm £5.71 hose clips (x3) £3.00 Total: £8.71   Toolstation Lever ball valve 22mm Blue £5.67   VFM Workshop Supplies (ebay) Rubber lined P clips x20 £4.60   Melor Online Webasto 5mm fuel pipe £41.28 (make your measurements carefully and they will cut/flare - one bit from tank to fuel filter, one bit from fuel filter to pump, one bit from pump to heater. The tank dip pipe just make out of whats left I think).   Toolstation True Blue pipe thread sealant £2.90 (for fuel tank fitting)   Halfords Holts Firegum exhaust paste £3.99   BES 5mmx1/4”bsptm fitting £  (think this was the fitting to the diesel tank)   sjrautoparts (ebay) Exhaust heat wrap (x2) £7.98   Screwfix Flomasta Inhibited antifreeze 5l (x2) £41.98   The ones with funny names are all ebay sellers. I left out all the sundry plumbing items, but my total spend came to £1200 inc rads etc.

[Motters79]

Thanks Johnny London! I really appreciate you taking the time to list all these items for me.

 

I'm a little unsure as to what the Auto Air Vent bottle is. Could you clarify?

 

I've found an expansion tank on eBay that comes with a pressure gauge and what looks like a filing loop but it doesn't say that's what it is. Its also very expensive compared with the one you mention. https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F221963357440

 

As you found out, everything becomes clearer once you have the unit and can begin to properly plan where everything will go etc.

 

How have you found to be noise/vibration wise? Did you mount on the bulkhead? With jus the noggins or on a board aswell? Also how reliable has you unit been? Did you get it set up at all or just been using it straight as it came? 

15 hours ago, Johny London said:

 

A particularly neat way to do the install would be to do as he suggested with bulkhead fittings for the hoses from the heater, then everything else just inside the boat. Mine, lots of plumbing - including the pressure gauge - in the engine bay. Also - use copper and compression joints - I used plastic pipe/push fit - it's rubbish. 

Thanks Johnny! I've just spent an hour reading through your thread! Certainly was epic, but you were asking all the questions that would probably ask so it is very informative. I think I understand what needs to be done.  The bulkhead fittings do sound a good idea but my Calorifier is in the engine room above the floor so I'd have to run the the pipes back through the bulkhead. Not impossible. 

 

Like you, I've gone for a reconditioned unit from MP &  H on EBay, (am I right about that? I know MrSmelly did) which doesn't have all the right bits, so I'll need to get all that. Can you remember where you got your fuel pipe and which rubber hose you used to connect from the heater to the 22mm spine tails? Also which rubber noggins did you use for mounting the heater?

 

No doubt I'll have more questions for you (and anyone else who's in the know, NMEA etc)

 

Thanks mate. Oh, I'd love to see some pics of your install!

[Johny London]

The vents are slightly confusing - as I said, study the install info (do you have a copy yet???) and you will see some ambiguity. One kind is to purge air from the system. the other I think is an emergency pressure release. IIRC I have an air purge one at the high point at the calorifier and then whatever the fill loop one is, inside the engine bay. Plus another in the engine bay which I think is the pressre release kind - with a pipe directing it into the bilge area. NMEA really needs to chime in here though. 

The kit you link to looks fine - up to you if you shop around or not, I usually find trade merchants clock you as a "norm" and rip you off, but the place I went to that time were good. Luck of the draw. I think as long as you have that (its with the pressure relief valve) and one or two air vent valves, you'll be ok. Of course, the real trick is in the detail of physically where everything goes. That only you can decide - you mentioned the calorifier is in the engine bay - maybe that will work in your favour.

I made up a board, but could see no practical reason to fit it. I used taps to do threaded holes for the webasto mountings, straight to the bulkhead.

Noise is not an issue - I thought it would whine dreadfully but it's pretty ok. The ticking from the pump you can hear more - it carries - but is useful to know when the thing goes into sooty mode. Mind you, my saloon is at the pointy end so well away from it all.

[Motters79]

Ok Johnny (&anyone else). A couple of questions:

 

1) the fuel tank connection: you drill a hole and tap it ready for the 5mmx1/4" fitting, then you pass the copper fuel pipe through in to the tank with a 90 deg bend so that the end of the pipe is 6inches say from the tank bottom, then pass the 5mmx1/4" fitting over the pipe and screw into the tank with the True Blue stuff, followed by an olive and the compression nut. That correct? The bend in the pipe passes through the 1/4" hole ok? You are then left with a length of copper pipe sticking out of the tank wall at 90 deg. How did you then connect this with the next section of pipe to the filter?

 

2) the exhaust. Is the exhaust and silencer supplied from mp n h not suitable? You appear to have bought another (cylindrical one) and more pipe. What was going here? Someone mentioned a gas tight and a non gas tight exhaust. Surely they're all gas tight or you'd have your boat filled with fumes? 

 

The tank connection worries me the most! I wanna get that right 1st time.

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

9 hours ago, Motters79 said:

Someone mentioned a gas tight and a non gas tight exhaust. Surely they're all gas tight or you'd have your boat filled with fumes? 

When I was looking I found you need to be careful about what you are buying.

These heaters are designed primarily for automotive use and the exhaust is NOT gas tight, you need to make sure you either buy a marinised version (gas tight exhaust) or a separate gas-tight exhaust if you are doing your own 'marinisation'.

 

Any gas 'leak' in an automotive application and it just dissipates under the vehicle so is not a problem, as you point out, if that happens in a boat, the boat just fills up with exhaust gases.

Edited September 12, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[Motters79]

On 12/09/2018 at 10:37, Alan de Enfield said:

 

These heaters are designed primarily for automotive use and the exhaust is NOT gas tight, you need to make sure you either buy a marinised version (gas tight exhaust) or a separate gas-tight exhaust if you are doing your own 'marinisation'

Well my remanufactured Termotop C arrived today and I must say I'm impressed with the general look of the unit and all the bits that come in the 'kit'. The exhaust silencer is of the flat rectangular variety. Is this one of the non gas tight ones does anyone know? I've seen photos of this type of silencer in a few boat installs so hopefully for those that have one it is. I only ask because if you search for 'gas tight webasto silencer' or 'webasto marine silencer' you only seem to see the cylindrical type. I'm a bit confused.

 

Cab anyone give a definitive answer as to which is the correct one?

[Motters79]

12 hours ago, Motters79 said:

The exhaust silencer is of the flat rectangular variety. Is this one of the non gas tight ones does anyone know? I've seen photos of this type of silencer in a few boat installs so hopefully for those that have one it is. 

 

Cab anyone give a definitive answer as to which is the correct one?

On 12/09/2018 at 10:37, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I answered my own question by messaging the seller mp & h. The one supplied (small flat rectangular) is NOT gas tight. A bit concerning as I have seen several installed on boats in photos. 

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, Motters79 said:

I answered my own question by messaging the seller mp & h. The one supplied (small flat rectangular) is NOT gas tight. A bit concerning as I have seen several installed on boats in photos. 

I'm all for saving 'the pennies', but in some instances it does pay to know what you are buying, and buy the correct 'stuff' for the application.

 

I would suggest that anyone buying something as potentially life threatening as a 'leaking exhaust' for use in the confines of a boat should really do their research before buying.

[Johny London]

I must say, this is the first I have heard about "non gas tight" exhausts. In any context, Webasto or otherwise. Sounds rather like an oxymoron doesn't it? I wonder what makes it non gas tight? Could it be the convoluted tubing rather than the silencer? Or would a certain type of silencer have a way of fitting tightly to that sort of tube? I used plenty of silencer putty or whatever it is called. Easy enough to check by dangling a co meter near it?

I'm not sure how much difference the silencer makes, in terms of noise. There's not really much to muffle in that sense,

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, Johny London said:

Easy enough to check by dangling a co meter near it?

Diesel tends to produce little Co, but, in certain conditions and over time it can build up in confined spaces to fatal levels.

 

Diesel produces other 'nasties'.

The inhalation of vehicular diesel exhaust fumes can be fatal.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18643868

 

".................Lastly, an extensive literature review produced no scientifically reported cases of fatal CO poisoning attributed to diesel fuel exhaust".

[Motters79]

18 minutes ago, Johny London said:

I must say, this is the first I have heard about "non gas tight" exhausts. In any context, Webasto or otherwise. Sounds rather like an oxymoron doesn't it? I wonder what makes it non gas tight? Could it be the convoluted tubing rather than the silencer? Or would a certain type of silencer have a way of fitting tightly to that sort of tube? I used plenty of silencer putty or whatever it is called. Easy enough to check by dangling a co meter near it?

I'm not sure how much difference the silencer makes, in terms of noise. There's not really much to muffle in that sense,

Ha ha yeah I know what you mean. I was wondering the same and now I have it in front of me it has become apparent.  Looking at the silencer I've received it has a small diamond shaped hole on the seam where the 2 halves are spot welded. If you block one end of the silencer and blow in the other you can hear gas escaping from this hole. I'm assuming that fumes will be ejected from this hole into the engine bay or wherever it is installed. 

 

Have you got this type installed Johny? If so, see if you can smell any fumes near the silencer when running. 

 

Did you lag the silencer as well when fitting? I imagine a bit of fire gum and a few wraps of insulation should seal it easily enough. Makes me wonder why it is designed this way though.

Edited September 14, 2018 by Motters79
Mistype

[Alan de Enfield]

16 minutes ago, Motters79 said:

Ha ha yeah I know what you mean. I was wondering the same and now I have it in front of me it has become apparent.  Looking at the silencer I've received it has a small diamond shaped hole on the seam where the 2 halves are spot welded. If you block one end of the silencer and blow in the other you can hear gas escaping from this hole. I'm assuming that fumes will be ejected from this hole into the engine bay or wherever it is installed. 

 

Have you got this type installed Johny? If so, see if you can smell any fumes near the silencer when running. 

 

Did you lag the silencer as well when fitting? I imagine a bit of fire gum and a few wraps of insulation should seal it easily enough. Makes me wonder why it is designed this way though.

Different application - but - My old motorcycle exhaust had a hole in the bottom to allow condensation etc to drain out and minimise the exhaust 'rusting thru'.