Advice on Heating/Hot Water Please

[Guest]

Hi everyone

 

To continue our journey with our boat, we are going to be moving on to the next stage with the fitting of the boat soon.

 

We have a widebeam 60 x 12 boat and currently there is an invertor installed and electrics wired up to most of the boat including sockets.,

 

We are looking for advice as to the best solution for heating/hot water for the whole boat and also I guess that would have an impact on what appliances we have in the kitchen, i/e gas cooker etc

 

It has been mentioned that we should get a diesel system that can run from the engine as well as other sources but we have no idea what we should go for and what would be the best solution to be able to be self sufficient on the waterways as and when we want that but also to hook up to a power source at times.

 

There is no heating installed at the moment so it is a blank canvas however all of the boat has been panelled with the electrics running under the panels and under the ceililing other than that it is ready to be put in the panels can be removed as no internal decoration has taken place yet that is the last thing to be done.

 

Any advice would really be appreciated and also any recommendations for people to use for the job is also recommended we are limited on budget so everything has to be right at this stage any mistakes would really impact us

 

thanks again everyone 

 

J x

[Jen-in-Wellies]

Will this be a holiday boat, or lived on full time, including over winter Will it be mostly connected to a land line, or not? Both these strongly influence what is "best".

If you are going to be on a land line at least some of the time and if you are going to fit a calorifier, heated from the engine cooling circuit, then adding a mains immersion heater adds only a few tens of pounds to the cost and gives easy hassle free hot water when on a land line. Away from a land line you'll need to run the engine nearly every day to keep the batteries charged, so havong the calorifier coil gives you a free tank of hot water too. Again, if this is a holiday boat and you are cruising every day the same applies.

 

If you are getting a solid fuel stove, the cheapest and most reliable live aboard heating, then get one with a back boiler and run it to a second coil in the calorifier.

 

Don't know about diesel heating, or gas instantaneous heaters as no direct experience. I do have solar thermal hot water for the summer, but that is a DIY approach. No commercial systems designed for boats are made as far as I know.

 

Jen

Edited July 19, 2018 by Jen-in-Wellies

[Guest]

Hi we are going to be living in the boat and we want to go on the assumption that we will be not in a marina so need to be self sufficient if we end up connected to a marina for short spaces of time then all good but we want the most self sufficient solution 

 

Thanks very much for your response to be honest know nothing about what a calorifier is and have heard this mentioned many times so will need to look into what it does more thanks for your help 

[rusty69]

Engine heated Calorifier + A N other (instantaneous gas heater in our case) 

Edited July 19, 2018 by rusty69

[Robbo]

I’m guessing your going to be livingaboard during winter.

 

If your’re looking for a boiler for primary heating 24/7 then you need a pressure jet system.

Kabola, Hurricane, Bubble PJ are some good names.  Cost around £2-5K, some are combi boilers as well which reduce the need for a calorfier.  Apart from the Hurricane they are 240v, so you need to think about power requirements, but they are probably the most efficient boilers with diesel.

 

If you just want a boiler for secondary heating that’s only going to be on a few hours of the days then a cheaper boiler can be used.  These like to be run hard and don’t like cycling, so don’t run on a thermostat.  Webasto and Eberspacher come to mind.  Cost around £1-1.5K.  Your primary source of heating will be a stove of either solid fuel or diesel..

 

Drip fed stoves/boilers these are usually stoves but you can get boiler only ones.  Basically light and forget but are manually controlled and don’t require electric to run (bar the pump in a non gravity fed system).  Cost is around £1.5-2K, but they can be thirst on diesel and lack been timed, but if you don’t want a solid fuel stove they are a good primary source of heat. Reflek and Dickinson are some good names.

 

Calorfier can be heated from multiple sources, like stove, boiler, engine and shore power.  But they are slow to heat up from cold.  A combi gives you instant hot water but it will be your only source.

 

Gas systems, really good for instant hot water, really expensive to run for heating.

Edited July 19, 2018 by Robbo
Webasto instead of Wallas, Wallas don't do Hydronic heaters

[Sea Dog]

Three sources - engine cooling circuit, diesel central heating, electric immersion - cover most folks hot water needs.  The first is a supply of free hot water every time you cruise; a 1 hour burst of the second first thing on a morning gives you a tank of hot water and warms the boat til your multi-fuel stove is back to operating temperature, and the third is the main source when you have shore power.  You'll need a calorifier with 2 coils and an immersion boss - look at the "Surecal" range for example. A typical Narrowboat hot water tank would be 55ltrs - do you really need more hot water because you're in a widebeam?  There are other ways, of course, but this one takes a bit of beating.

Edited July 19, 2018 by Sea Dog
Missing words.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

Three sources - engine cooling circuit, diesel central heating, electric immersion - cover most folks hot water needs.  The first is a supply of free hot water every time you cruise; a 1 hour burst of the second first thing on a morning gives you a tank of hot water and warms the boat til your multi-fuel stove is back to operating temperature, and the third is the main source when you have shore power.  You'll need a calorifier with 2 coils and an immersion boss - look at the "Surecal" range for example. A typical Narrowboat hot water tank would be 55ltrs - do you really need more hot water because you're in a widebeam?  There are other ways, of course, but this one takes a bit of beating.

Hi thanks for the advice I dont think we need any more hot water than a narrowboat as there is only 2 of us doubt the size of the boat matters but saying that I just dont know.  Can anybody recommend people that can come and do a quote for the whole lot of the work so we can get a total solution as we are totally confused with all of this thanks

[nicknorman]

There are so many possibilities!

 

i think most people are of the opinion that a solid fuel stove is best for live aboard. Obviously they need “feeding” and are a bit messy, but equally there's nothing nicer than a coal stove on a cold winter’s day. Try to have it near the middle of the boat.

 

You might also want a short term heating system eg a diesel webasto heater and radiators, for those spring and autumn days when it is chilly in the morning and evening but you don’t want the stove on all day.

 

A back boiler on the stove and radiators helps to distribute the heat around the boat, but ensuring circulation can be tricky. Pumped systems use power and can fail resulting in the water in the back boiler boiling, and gravity circulation systems can be tricky to get right (but are ultimately better).

 

For hot water an instant gas heater is good, but equally a calorifier gives “free” hot water from the engine. Some people have both, with a selector valve to allow the hot taps to get their water from either the calorifier or the gas heater.

 

Anyway, a general rule of liveaboard is to try to have secondary / backup systems for when things fail.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Jen011 said:

Thanks very much for your response to be honest know nothing about what a calorifier is and have heard this mentioned many times so will need to look into what it does more thanks for your help 

A calorifier is a fancy name for a big 'copper' tank that holds hot water, it will have an insulation layer of foam, or a 'blanket' around it to keep the water warm (just as you would have in a house)

It doesn't provide hot water by itself it needs to have the water it holds 'heated up'.

 

The water it holds can be heated in different ways (or, if you connect it up correctly by all three ways)

1) Water is heated by the heat from the engine when cruising.

2) Water is heated from your main 'heat source' (Coal fire, Diesel heating, Gas heating)

3) Electric Immersion heater for when you are connected to a land-line or have the generator running

Edited July 19, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[Sea Dog]

5 minutes ago, Jen011 said:

Hi thanks for the advice I dont think we need any more hot water than a narrowboat as there is only 2 of us doubt the size of the boat matters but saying that I just dont know.  Can anybody recommend people that can come and do a quote for the whole lot of the work so we can get a total solution as we are totally confused with all of this thanks

I don't think you'll need more hot water than a Narrowboat either, but there's some odd ideas about and widebeam is sometimes synonymous with excess and I didn't want to presume!

 

There are lots of folk who could fit this stuff for you, but I'd aim for a fitter from a yard who does canal boats as they'd understand the application and be more aware of your needs.  They often advertise in the canal press, so look in the likes of Waterways World, Towpath, etc.  

 

If you don't mind me saying so, it sounds like you've taken a bit of a flyer here if you're fitting out a boat and yet this stuff confuses you. 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

Lowest cost would be a calorifier warmed by the engine, plus an immersion heater for if a shore line is available. The engine will need running near every day to keep batteries charged when not on land line, so free hot water anyway. Solid fuel stove for heating. All simple and reliable.

 

Add in diesel or gas heaters, back boiler to the stove for more refinement and back up but extra money. Leave space for these in the system while money is tight and add once you get experience living on the boat and have a better idea what the problems are you want to solve.

 

Recommendations for someone to fit a system will depend on where the boat is located. Where are you?

 

Jen

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

I don't think you'll need more hot water than a Narrowboat either, but there's some odd ideas about and widebeam is sometimes synonymous with excess and I didn't want to presume!

 

There are lots of folk who could fit this stuff for you, but I'd aim for a fitter from a yard who does canal boats as they'd understand the application and be more aware of your needs.  They often advertise in the canal press, so look in the likes of Waterways World, Towpath, etc.  

 

If you don't mind me saying so, it sounds like you've taken a bit of a flyer here if you're fitting out a boat and yet this stuff confuses you. 

I am asking for advice on the heating not telling me that I am taking a bit of a flyer here is that not the point of the forum to ask questions so that I can look at what people say sorry but did not ask for insults for no reason thank you

[Sea Dog]

1 minute ago, Jen011 said:

I am asking for advice on the heating not telling me that I am taking a bit of a flyer here is that not the point of the forum to ask questions so that I can look at what people say sorry but did not ask for insults for no reason thank you

I'm sorry you took that observation as an insult Jen; I have given you helpful advice.

[Guest]

I do not need to be told something like that the boat is stressful enough without comments like that if asking advice is considered wrong then perhaps i shoudn't come to this forum if I am getting insulted for simply asking boat owners what they would do there was no need for that comment so please unless you have any useful advice please refrain from insults as believe me I do not need it !

[nicknorman]

5 minutes ago, Jen011 said:

I do not need to be told something like that the boat is stressful enough without comments like that if asking advice is considered wrong then perhaps i shoudn't come to this forum if I am getting insulted for simply asking boat owners what they would do there was no need for that comment so please unless you have any useful advice please refrain from insults as believe me I do not need it !

Oh dear, you are one of those. No more advice from me then. You should look up the definition of an insult, you silly person. Now that IS an insult, and well deserved.

 

no-one has said that asking for advice is wrong. It has merely been suggested that if you don’t have a clue what you are doing, it would be best not to try to invent the solution yourself. That is good advice even though it isn’t what you want to hear, hence your silly sulk.

Edited July 19, 2018 by nicknorman

[nicknorman]

5 minutes ago, Jen011 said:

No I am not one of those stop trolling for gods sake you clearly have nothing valuable to add to this discussion now please jog on ..,.,.

GET A LIFE WILL YOU FOR GODS SAKE WOKE UP IN A BAD MOOD THIS MORNING HIDING BEHIND THE INTERNET TO INSULT OTHERS IS JUST NOT ON WEIRDO 

You have contributed nothing to this forum. You come on here asking questions (fair enough) but as soon as you get an answer, given in good faith, that you don’t like, you get all tantrums and sulks. We see this relatively often, unfortunately there are quite a few people around who think they are owed something for nothing by others, I think “overburdened with a sense of entitlement” is the phrase.

How annoying, I just missed the deadline to delete my earlier post where I spent some time helping the ungrateful OP.

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

You have contributed nothing to this forum. You come on here asking questions (fair enough) but as soon as you get an answer, given in good faith, that you don’t like, you get all tantrums and sulks. We see this relatively often, unfortunately there are quite a few people around who think they are owed something for nothing by others, I think “overburdened with a sense of entitlement” is the phrase.

How annoying, I just missed the deadline to delete my earlier post where I spent some time helping the ungrateful OP.

No I have not contributed to the forum probably because I am new to all of this and am trying to find my way around with our boat that like many others is our dream to live on and so therefore came on here for advice, albeit may not know about heating enough to decipher what is the best way to go or not so generally looking for opinions so we can take info from that, I am not sulking or whatever it is just ridiculous that asking a question turns into an insult and you now get on the bandwagon with it all, seriously !!  people have to start somewhere dont they we all have to at some point in our lives it is not about getting information for free it is asking for honest opinions and ultimately we will make our own decision so you are saying that asking opinions on this forum is information for free then, perhaps next time you need to ask someone some advice have your cheque book ready then as if that is what this forum is about that is a real shame as that is not what I thought it was about perhaps the moderators could clarify the position here as I saw no mention of money being involved.  However if people suggest others they have used and they get paid for the job surely that is a a benefit to them is it not 

 

There is no sense of entitlement I am merely asking for opinions by people who already use these systems and if asking for that is a problem I am ever so sorry I came onto this forum as clearly I am out of line for asking for free advice as you call it 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

A calorifier is a fancy name for a big 'copper' tank that holds hot water, it will have an insulation layer of foam, or a 'blanket' around it to keep the water warm (just as you would have in a house)

It doesn't provide hot water by itself it needs to have the water it holds 'heated up'.

 

The water it holds can be heated in different ways (or, if you connect it up correctly by all three ways)

1) Water is heated by the heat from the engine when cruising.

2) Water is heated from your main 'heat source' (Coal fire, Diesel heating, Gas heating)

3) Electric Immersion heater for when you are connected to a land-line or have the generator running

Thank you for clarifying this for me that is really helpful 

[Sea Dog]

58 minutes ago, Jen011 said:

I do not need to be told something like that the boat is stressful enough without comments like that if asking advice is considered wrong then perhaps i shoudn't come to this forum if I am getting insulted for simply asking boat owners what they would do there was no need for that comment so please unless you have any useful advice please refrain from insults as believe me I do not need it !

I gave you sound advice in an earlier post and again in the one where I said "If you don't mind me saying so, it sounds like you've taken a bit of a flyer here if you're fitting out a boat and yet this stuff confuses you. ".  A sensible reply to that would have given us an insight into your skills and abilities so the advice could be better targeted. I've always found this forum helpful to both the skilled and the unskilled, but the help required can be very different. Anyway, I already apologised if you had taken my remark the wrong way and received this terse reply; now you've taken to shouting at others who are normally really helpful, so I'll not bother you further.

[nicknorman]

9 minutes ago, Jen011 said:

No I have not contributed to the forum probably because I am new to all of this and am trying to find my way around with our boat that like many others is our dream to live on and so therefore came on here for advice, albeit may not know about heating enough to decipher what is the best way to go or not so generally looking for opinions so we can take info from that, I am not sulking or whatever it is just ridiculous that asking a question turns into an insult and you now get on the bandwagon with it all, seriously !!  people have to start somewhere dont they we all have to at some point in our lives it is not about getting information for free it is asking for honest opinions and ultimately we will make our own decision so you are saying that asking opinions on this forum is information for free then, perhaps next time you need to ask someone some advice have your cheque book ready then as if that is what this forum is about that is a real shame as that is not what I thought it was about perhaps the moderators could clarify the position here as I saw no mention of money being involved.  However if people suggest others they have used and they get paid for the job surely that is a a benefit to them is it not 

 

There is no sense of entitlement I am merely asking for opinions by people who already use these systems and if asking for that is a problem I am ever so sorry I came onto this forum as clearly I am out of line for asking for free advice as you call it 

You are not out of line for asking questions and you don’t need to get your cheque book out. You are out of line for getting sulky and saying you have been insulted when you didn’t like one of the replies given with your best interests at heart. Bearing in mind your lack of knowledge and bearing in mind the issue you are asking about is quite complex, it is not an “insult” to be told that you are not really a suitable person to be designing your boat’s heating and hot water system. It is good advice even if you don’t like it. And even if you think it isn’t good advice, just suck it up and move on without comment. There is no need to come back all sulky because it just puts anyone else of trying to help you. This is not the way to get others to help you. I know you think it is all about you, but other people on here are just as human as you with their strengths and weaknesses too. You have no entitlement to come on here and get only the answers you like, to your questions

Edited July 19, 2018 by nicknorman

[Guest]

I have asked a valid question and clearly I am being told off for that, I do not appreciate your tone towards me so please do not bother to respond any more I have other advice outside of this forum and I will go with that as clearly posting on here involves having to deal with trolls and I am sorry life is too short for that.  Enough said I have work to do so sorry cant continue this with you goodbye 

12 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

I gave you sound advice in an earlier post and again in the one where I said "If you don't mind me saying so, it sounds like you've taken a bit of a flyer here if you're fitting out a boat and yet this stuff confuses you. ".  A sensible reply to that would have given us an insight into your skills and abilities so the advice could be better targeted. I've always found this forum helpful to both the skilled and the unskilled, but the help required can be very different. Anyway, I already apologised if you had taken my remark the wrong way and received this terse reply; now you've taken to shouting at others who are normally really helpful, so I'll not bother you further.

I accept your apology and sorry I took it the wrong way however this has now started bullying towards me on this forum so I will not post on here any more as I now see this is not a good place to go I have no interest in people that act like that whatsoever and hope this is just a small minority on the waterways as the people I have met have all been lovely not bullies who think they have a right to tell me about myself when they know nothing about me and thankfully never will.  I dont want to discuss this any more and am closing my account as I am seriously put off by the way that I have been treated with this 

[nicknorman]

This is for the best, you are obviously can’t tolerate being told anything you don’t want to hear. You are not suited to this sort of forum. I do pity you though, you are going to have a lot of difficulties in life as a result.

[Guest]

Try Thunderboat?  http://thunderboat.boards.net   

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, Winn said:

Try Thunderboat?  http://thunderboat.boards.net   

Cos Nick doesn't post there! 

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Cos Nick doesn't post there! 

No, you're quite right, I think his contrary twin does.