captain flint Posted January 20, 2018 Report Share Posted January 20, 2018 What's the reality with a missing RCD? I have read about what boats are exempt from needing one (to be sold). there's a boat I'm interested in that is definitely not exempt, but the only document the broker is sure he can get is a probate order relating to the boat. If that's all in order, then obviously establishing bone fide legal ownership of the boat is not a worry. And a missing BSS is also a straightforward issue to get my head around (obviously there's a cost there, and it could reveal a host of troubles if the boat is not BSS worthy but that last seems unlikely in this case). But the missing RCD...? I know the issue is when you come to sell on, and that if you are in need of selling a buyer could use it to beat you down on price. Is that about the long and short of it? I know it might be a chance to get the boat for a better price, but I think it's a boat that will sell fast, as it happens, and that I'd like... The asking price seems about right so it's not about leverage - but I don't want to do something that would have bad implications for me down the line. DISCLAIMER: Sorry, another noob question. Feel free to ignore it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted January 20, 2018 Report Share Posted January 20, 2018 It is your choice - the last boat I bought had missing VAT paid certificate and no RCD documentation. I negotiated hard with the seller and achieved £60,000 knocked off the price. I subsequently contacted the manufacturer and gave them the HiN and they sent me a copy of the RCD. I contacted the local Customs and with a 'contribution to the coffee fund' was able to obtain a 'copy' of a backdated VAT certificate. If the boat is over 5 years old then it is quite legal to sell it without the RCD documentation, so I wouldn't worry unduly, if it is not 5+ years old now, it probably will be by the time you come to sell it on. What age is it ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewIC Posted January 20, 2018 Report Share Posted January 20, 2018 24 minutes ago, captain flint said: the only document the broker is sure he can get is a probate order relating to the boat. If that's all in order, then obviously establishing bone fide legal ownership of the boat is not a worry. How does probate establish legal ownership? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain flint Posted January 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2018 1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said: If the boat is over 5 years old then it is quite legal to sell it without the RCD documentation, so I wouldn't worry unduly, if it is not 5+ years old now, it probably will be by the time you come to sell it on. What age is it ? It's 2008. That was my initial thinking - and I'm prepared to accept that that's the reality of it in practice - but from my reading of it, if it's a professional fitout (and the boat in question is), it "should" have an RCD if originally manufactured after it all came in in 1998. The only reference to five years that I saw - if I am not misunderstanding it - is in the case of owner fit outs (for own use). But I can see how that, in practice, might just be a non-consideration - after all, who's to say it wasn't once an owner fit out, when you're selling it on several years down the line? The main jist I'm getting is that I'm not going ignore the issue, but not going to worry unduly either, which was kind of my instinct in this case. I am already in touch with the company who fitted it out - the shell manufacturers are no more, and actually the outfitters have changed hands, but the guy I spoke to remembered the boat, and we're going to talk again on Monday, when he's in the office. You never know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain flint Posted January 21, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 1 hour ago, AndrewIC said: How does probate establish legal ownership? Well, that's one of the questions I will be trying to get my head around but it will be a legal document with signatories witnessed by a Notary Public relating to ownership of property, so my guess it would be somewhere in that kinda vicinity - but I am all ears if anyone has any actual, you know, knowledge. But if I wanted advice on that from a forum I''d probably visit a legal one, not a boating one ;-) Seriously, though, if you know something about it please feel free to correct me, otherwise I will speak to a lawyer on Monday to find out more about that., Seems like it's the only document likely to be readily available on this vessel, the others, if found, may require some serious digging Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bee Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 I wouldn't worry about it unless you are taking it to Europe, That just possibly could be an issue due to the brexit nonsense but unlikely so far as anyone knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsmelly Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 27 minutes ago, Bee said: I wouldn't worry about it unless you are taking it to Europe, That just possibly could be an issue due to the brexit nonsense but unlikely so far as anyone knows. Completely agree. If its a good boat, its a good boat end of. My widebeam didn't have RCD and I paid market price for the boat in cash as if it had/had not got the bit of paper. I sold it a few years later very quickly again for full market value to another cash buyer who didn't care a hoot. If you like it some prospective future buyer will have it and there is no legal requirement for boats to have one unless being sold on less than five years old. My widebeam was 2 years old when first sold with no RCD and the first owner didn't get ten year in the state penitentiary for selling it. If you are a worrier then this typing is all for nowt but if you are a doer then you will buy the boat you like. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain flint Posted January 21, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 1 hour ago, Bee said: I wouldn't worry about it unless you are taking it to Europe, Interesting. I know people say that about missing VAT documents, as I've heard, in France especially, the reality is that the douaniers are liable to regard tax as not having been paid on the original purchase of the vessel unless there is paperwork, and you might be forced to fork out 20% of the value of your boat. How does traveling to Europe have relevance to a missing RCD plate? It's only likely to be an issue if the boat is being sold I should have thought, or are there some continental RCD enforcement protocols that differ from over here? In terms of RCD law, it is of course identical here and there. For the time being... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain flint Posted January 21, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 1 hour ago, mrsmelly said: . If you are a worrier then this typing is all for nowt but if you are a doer then you will buy the boat you like. I'd prefer to be a worrier but the Inland waterways is wearing me down! I'm not in the least worried I'd land in hot water over this, more a question of losing money on resale. But your story confirms what I suspect, which is if it's a good boat that is likely to be in demand then you'll probably find a buyer who isn't bothered. Which was one of what I was thinking, but I really appreciate people taking the time to share their views and experiences. It's been very helpful. NB: this repeated idea that RCD is not needed on boats over five years old is not quite the whole story. That only really applies to owner built. Which could almost certainly be extended to owner fitted out. If it was required by law to have an RCD plate at point of original sale, so far as I can tell, it's required by law to have one when your resell it, even if more than five years later. But i get that the theory and the practice may be different. Hence asking for people's thoughts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Mack Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 1 minute ago, captain flint said: If it was required by law to have an RCD plate at point of original sale, so far as I can tell, it's required by law to have one when your resell it, even if more than five years later. But i get that the theory and the practice may be different. Hence asking for people's thoughts! No. RCD compliance is required only when the boat is first placed on the EU market (i.e. offered for sale, not necessarily sold). It is not a legal requirement for subsequent sales, although brokers like to see the documentation as confirmation that the boat did, when new, meet RCD requirements. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsmelly Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 6 minutes ago, captain flint said: I'd prefer to be a worrier but the Inland waterways is wearing me down! I'm not in the least worried I'd land in hot water over this, more a question of losing money on resale. But your story confirms what I suspect, which is if it's a good boat that is likely to be in demand then you'll probably find a buyer who isn't bothered. Which was one of what I was thinking, but I really appreciate people taking the time to share their views and experiences. It's been very helpful. NB: this repeated idea that RCD is not needed on boats over five years old is not quite the whole story. That only really applies to owner built. Which could almost certainly be extended to owner fitted out. If it was required by law to have an RCD plate at point of original sale, so far as I can tell, it's required by law to have one when your resell it, even if more than five years later. But i get that the theory and the practice may be different. Hence asking for people's thoughts! Just another thing. As for worrying about the boat without an RCD, well the Shell builder if its say colecraft don't mess about selling non RCD compliant shells, why would they. Beta don't sell non compliant engines etc etc etc so unless you take a mahoosive risk and buy a completely unknown builder with everything different about the boat then whats the risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 (edited) 16 minutes ago, captain flint said: How does traveling to Europe have relevance to a missing RCD plate? On entering a 'foreign' port you need to present your 'ships papers' which consist of, both the 'ships' papers AND the crews 'papers' Ships Papers consist of : Vessel Skipper and / or Crew Registration document Evidence of Competence (requirements vary by country) Ship Radio Licence Authority to Operate Maritime Radio Insurance documents (requirements vary by country) Passport or other recognised travel document Evidence of the Union Status of the boat European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) and / or appropriate medical and repatriation insurance Evidence of RCD Compliance or Exemption Voyage Log Edited January 21, 2018 by Alan de Enfield 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Mack Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 Evidence of RCD compliance now? Or only when new? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceinSanity Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 25 minutes ago, David Mack said: No. RCD compliance is required only when the boat is first placed on the EU market (i.e. offered for sale, not necessarily sold). It is not a legal requirement for subsequent sales, although brokers like to see the documentation as confirmation that the boat did, when new, meet RCD requirements. Unless it's had a "Major Craft Conversion", in which case it needs a bit of recertification. See here: http://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/cruising-tips/hints-tips/Pages/changes-to-recreational-craft-directive.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 6 minutes ago, David Mack said: Evidence of RCD compliance now? Or only when new? Well - I use the 'Certificate of Conformity' issued, stamped and signed by the manufacturer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bee Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 44 minutes ago, captain flint said: How does traveling to Europe have relevance to a missing RCD plate? It's only likely to be an issue if the boat is being sold I should have thought, or are there some continental RCD enforcement protocols that differ from over here? In terms of RCD law, it is of course identical here and there. For the time being... Well. I dunno, I just have a nagging fear that there will be enough unclear / grey areas left after whatever brexit will bring that some petty officials or department will make life awkward, I really do not fancy going through some sort of legal test case to establish what I have been doing for years is still legal. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 Who takes their narrowboats abroad anyway?! So rare that when it happens, it becomes noteworthy. The number of narrowboats abroad is probably barely into double figures, if that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain flint Posted January 21, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 1 hour ago, David Mack said: No. RCD compliance is required only when the boat is first placed on the EU market (i.e. offered for sale, not necessarily sold). It is not a legal requirement for subsequent sales, although brokers like to see the documentation as confirmation that the boat did, when new, meet RCD requirements. That's not what I understand at all. RCD needs to be established by builders, certified etc, but if the boat is built post June the whateverth 1998, then everything says compliance is required on any sake of that vessel. Nothing about second hand sales being exempt that I've seen. Of course, the onus is on builders to supply it, but if there's a lack and one is wanted, then there is the post construction assessment option. Which unless I am being dumb (, not the first time) kind of implies RCD compliance can be needed on being the first sale - otherwise why bother getting a post construction assessment?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsmelly Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 36 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said: Who takes their narrowboats abroad anyway?! So rare that when it happens, it becomes noteworthy. The number of narrowboats abroad is probably barely into double figures, if that. More to the point why the hell would you? Completely unsuited to anywhere in the world apart from here. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain flint Posted January 21, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said: On entering a 'foreign' port you need to present your 'ships papers' which consist of, both the 'ships' papers AND the crews 'papers' Ships Papers consist of : Vessel Skipper and / or Crew Registration document Evidence of Competence (requirements vary by country) Ship Radio Licence Authority to Operate Maritime Radio Insurance documents (requirements vary by country) Passport or other recognised travel document Evidence of the Union Status of the boat European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) and / or appropriate medical and repatriation insurance Evidence of RCD Compliance or Exemption Voyage Log Yes, didn't think about that at all makes perfect sense. As Mike kind of says, chance if me taking it what would be a fine thing, in reality, but it's good to keep slowly wearing away at my ignorance! Edited January 21, 2018 by captain flint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 48 minutes ago, mrsmelly said: More to the point why the hell would you? Completely unsuited to anywhere in the world apart from here. I can think of at least 3. The one one the book Narrow Dog to Carcassonne There is a blog for NB Siskin, I think it is that was taken a over on a lorry My mate reckons his mate took his across the channel following a ferry! (I have my doubts about this actually.) Any others? I'm sure there are more.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsmelly Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 6 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said: I can think of at least 3. The one one the book Narrow Dog to Carcassonne There is a blog for NB Siskin, I think it is that was taken a over on a lorry My mate reckons his mate took his across the channel following a ferry! (I have my doubts about this actually.) Any others? I'm sure there are more.... Barking mad!! Not you Mike............well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said: I can think of at least 3. The one one the book Narrow Dog to Carcassonne There is a blog for NB Siskin, I think it is that was taken a over on a lorry My mate reckons his mate took his across the channel following a ferry! (I have my doubts about this actually.) Any others? I'm sure there are more.... I remember reading about one that made the trip over to Canada (on a ship, not on its own bottom) Edit to add : Found it. http://boating.ncf.ca/boatshipping.html The ship's captain was expecting a rough crossing, and therefore had 4 steel lugs welded to Xanth's hull. He then attached very substantial chains to keep her steady. By all accounts these precautions proved worthwhile. At one point during the crossing a list of 41 degrees was recorded. We are glad we flew over, although the guests cabin had been offered. Edited January 21, 2018 by Alan de Enfield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bee Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 4 hours ago, mrsmelly said: More to the point why the hell would you? Completely unsuited to anywhere in the world apart from here. Theres actually quite a number scattered around France and Belgium. There are a couple or three Dutch types that are approx. the same dimensions as narrowboats, Westlanders and others and they seem to get all over the place. There are canals and rivers that are really not comfortable for narrowboats (Or small cruisers either) but there are lots of smaller canals that are perfectly ok for narrowboats and easier, warmer and nicer than the G.U. If I had a narrowboat I would see taking it to Europe for a year or two as the natural thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsmelly Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 8 minutes ago, Bee said: Theres actually quite a number scattered around France and Belgium. There are a couple or three Dutch types that are approx. the same dimensions as narrowboats, Westlanders and others and they seem to get all over the place. There are canals and rivers that are really not comfortable for narrowboats (Or small cruisers either) but there are lots of smaller canals that are perfectly ok for narrowboats and easier, warmer and nicer than the G.U. If I had a narrowboat I would see taking it to Europe for a year or two as the natural thing to do. Takes all kinds dunnitt? If I was to go there for a year or two I would simply sell my narrowboat ( very easy to do ) and buy a proper boat shaped boat over there which I would sell on my return to blighty and purchase another bath tub. If I were going to the continent for a year or two in a campervan I sure as hell wouldn't be taking a right hand drive one over there from here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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