Oil

[Montecarlo]

Hi all

Won't start the what engine oil thing as it's been done to death. I've a manual for my Thorneycroft/Mitsubishi 80 series which takes the guesswork out! It says I need an SAE 10W-30 oil. OK so I go on Halfwords site and can't find one of this exact type. Is there a modern equivalent? Or is there a reliable brand elsewhere of this type?

PS It's a mineral APICC.

 

 

 

Many thanks in advance.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Montecarlo

[Celestine]

Hi,

 

If you do a google search on 10w-30 oils there are several options available. Midland Chandlers stock a 10w-30, I use that one. Just check what API certification your engine manufacturer recommends, probably API CD or CF.

[tonyt40]

I am tipping that it is mineral oil that you need. Have a look on ebay. There are loads of listings.

[alan_fincher]

Midland Chandlers stock a 10w-30, I use that one.

 

I couldn't easily find a 10W-30 at Midland Chandlers, but I might be messing up. Could you post a link so we can see it directly?

 

As you say the OP needs to check what API specification was stated for this engine.

 

[Murflynn]

15W 40 should do fine, but as the others say, the API grade is more important, and using a mineral oil.

 

Halfords is a good source. I have a can of their 15W 40 API CF enhanced mineral oil, which is suitable for regular non-turbo diesels. Their 10W 30 grade is semi synthetic and is for turbo diesels.

[Montecarlo]

Hi,

 

If you do a google search on 10w-30 oils there are several options available. Midland Chandlers stock a 10w-30, I use that one. Just check what API certification your engine manufacturer recommends, probably API CD or CF.

 

Yep just checked manual, APICC

[alan_fincher]

Yep just checked manual, APICC

 

Not sure how easily you will find a 10W-30 in API-CC. Morris Oils do a Golden Film 10W-40 in API-CC, which I would have thought would be fine, and might even be better if the engine is not in the first flush of youth.

[Murflynn]

I believe that API-CF is just an improved and later specification than CC, so it should be fine as a substitute for CC.

[Chewbacka]

E-bay is a good place to start.

Here is a couple of 20Litre tubs for £50 delivered.

The grade is not CC but I think that is obsolete now.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mineral-10w30-Performance-Engine-Oil-10w-30-20L-/121755367666?hash=item1c592f78f2:g:1Y0AAOSw2GlXFnyJ

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10w-30-Mineral-Engine-Oil-Universal-20-Litre-20L-/301499343543?hash=item4632c2e2b7:g:RdsAAOSwbsBXleXJ

 

Added - just use the cursor over the product labels to read the small print for grades etc

Edited October 6, 2016 by Chewbacka

[alan_fincher]

I believe that API-CF is just an improved and later specification than CC, so it should be fine as a substitute for CC.

 

That advice would certainly be questioned if this were a BMC or Lister engine, where the advice is very firmly to look for an API-CC, and not to go to a later higher specification.

 

I don't have the knowledge to know how critical it is with a Mitsubishi base engine, but I think I would be cautious of using API-CF in anything that originally specified API-CC, unless there is evidence that a higher spec oil is OK.

E-bay is a good place to start.

Here is a couple of 20Litre tubs for £50 delivered.

The grade is not CC but I think that is obsolete now.

 

It is an obsolete specification, but specialist oil blenders still produce oils that are specifically API-CC, because it is strongly recommended to use these in some older engines.

 

The Morris Golden Film range is specifically for older engines that specified API-CC, but the closest in the range to 10W-30 is their 10W-40 variant.

 

EDIT:

 

Millers Oils do one - not sure if that is one listed in the e-Bay selections already made.

 

This one seems to be what you need.

Edited October 6, 2016 by alan_fincher

[alan_fincher]

E-bay is a good place to start.

Here is a couple of 20Litre tubs for £50 delivered.

The grade is not CC but I think that is obsolete now.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mineral-10w30-Performance-Engine-Oil-10w-30-20L-/121755367666?hash=item1c592f78f2:g:1Y0AAOSw2GlXFnyJ

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10w-30-Mineral-Engine-Oil-Universal-20-Litre-20L-/301499343543?hash=item4632c2e2b7:g:RdsAAOSwbsBXleXJ

 

Added - just use the cursor over the product labels to read the small print for grades etc

 

The second of these is API-CD, which is probably OK.

 

The first is API-CH4 which I would definitely recommend against. (If it is, as it says OK for turbo-diesels, it is not what you want in your boat diesel).

 

The Millers Oil one is correct at API-CC.

Edited October 6, 2016 by alan_fincher

[Montecarlo]

The second of these is API-CD, which is probably OK.

 

The first is API-CH4 which I would definitely recommend against. (If it is, as it says OK for turbo-diesels, it is not what you want in your boat diesel).

 

The Millers Oil one is correct at API-CC.

Cheers Alan, this one seems the closest yet!

[Machpoint005]

Try a motor factor, and a Mitsubishi base engine (just like a Kubota one) will be quite happy with a modern spec mineral oil.

(ie API-CF)

Japanese naturally aspirated engines are quite modern, unlike the Turkish-built BMC design engines so beloved of canal boaters.

[Celestine]

Not certain if Midland Chandlers do list the 10w-30 on their website but they do stock it, I use it in my Beta 43 and PRM 150 gearbox. The oil is sold under the Barrus Shire brand.

 

If you need API CC in a 10w-30, then it's not easily available, the Barrus Shire oil is API CD. Using higher specification oils, such as API CF, is not always a good idea. These higher specification oils were developed for high output,turbo charged HGV engines with low emissions technology. This means they have high levels of detergent additives, this can cause bore polish and possible oil seal failure.

 

 

 

[Murflynn]

from the horse's mouth:

 

http://www.api.org/~/media/files/certification/engine-oil-diesel/publications/mom_guide_english_2013.pdf

 

CC is not recommended for diesels built after 1990.

CF is fine.

 

but what do they know?

Using higher specification oils, such as API CF, is not always a good idea. These higher specification oils were developed for high output,turbo charged HGV engines with low emissions technology. This means they have high levels of detergent additives, this can cause bore polish and possible oil seal failure.

 

 

 

AFAIK, CF is not intended for turbo engines.

CF- 4 can be used for turbo engines.

[Guest]

Hi all

Won't start the what engine oil thing as it's been done to death. I've a manual for my Thorneycroft/Mitsubishi 80 series which takes the guesswork out! It says I need an SAE 10W-30 oil. OK so I go on Halfwords site and can't find one of this exact type. Is there a modern equivalent? Or is there a reliable brand elsewhere of this type?

PS It's a mineral APICC.

 

 

 

Many thanks in advance.

I think this is the Mitsu S4L/S4L2 series same base engine as Vetus. If so I have run the same base engine on CF for nearly 13 years/4000hrs. That said I am not one for running out of gear for hours on end. I use Comma Cross Flow Mineral 15/40 (CF) these days.

If I am wrong about the base engine, please ignore.

[alan_fincher]

from the horse's mouth:

 

http://www.api.org/~/media/files/certification/engine-oil-diesel/publications/mom_guide_english_2013.pdf

 

CC is not recommended for diesels built after 1990.

CF is fine.

 

but what do they know?

 

I don't know enough about a Thornycroft engine to know if it was built after 1990 or not. Do you?

 

Anyway, presumably if the original manual said use API-CC, it matters not a jot when it was built, because if API-CC was recommended for it then, it will still be suitable now.

 

I was very careful to say that what applied to a Lister or BMC may not apply to a Mitsubushi, so I am grateful to those who have said the same, but do those recommending actually know this particular engine?

[dmr]

I believe that API-CF is just an improved and later specification than CC, so it should be fine as a substitute for CC.

 

Its "improved" in that it contains more additives and it is these additives that can cause big trouble in some older engines.

 

In a lightly loaded engine like in a canal boat some additives can lead to bore glazing. Other additives (dispersants) are designed to hold any particles in the oil to be removed by a modern filter. Some older engines have less good filters and in this case the particles are best dropped out into the sump to be removed at the next oil change (though I do wonder how much they get stirred back in by normal engine operation).

 

..................Dave

[alan_fincher]

I think this is the Mitsu S4L/S4L2 series same base engine as Vetus. If so I have run the same base engine on CF for nearly 13 years/4000hrs. That said I am not one for running out of gear for hours on end. I use Comma Cross Flow Mineral 15/40 (CF) these days.

If I am wrong about the base engine, please ignore.

 

Well a quick look at other posts suggests that a Thorneycrofyt 80 is a "K series" Mitsubushi, (whatever that is), and that SL4 is a later engine.

 

I think a Thorneycroft 80 is quite old, hence my caution, as it may not be the "modern" engine some are claiming it to be.

 

But I don't know - somebody else will presumably know when Thorneycroft marinised these, and what the base engine was?

[Guest]

 

I don't know enough about a Thornycroft engine to know if it was built after 1990 or not. Do you?

 

Anyway, presumably if the original manual said use API-CC, it matters not a jot when it was built, because if API-CC was recommended for it then, it will still be suitable now.

 

I was very careful to say that what applied to a Lister or BMC may not apply to a Mitsubushi, so I am grateful to those who have said the same, but do those recommending actually know this particular engine?

If it is a Mitsu S4L, I have pushed Diamond Deisels and vetus on this very issue. They just say "use any good quality diesel engine oil." Vetus even approve Synthetic. If it is not the S4L then this obviously does not apply (I used to know the Thornycroft builder, and he used the S4L for a few years.)

 

Well a quick look at other posts suggests that a Thorneycrofyt 80 is a "K series" Mitsubushi, (whatever that is), and that SL4 is a later engine.

 

I think a Thorneycroft 80 is quite old, hence my caution, as it may not be the "modern" engine some are claiming it to be.

 

But I don't know - somebody else will presumably know when Thorneycroft marinised these, and what the base engine was?

Sorry Alan we cross posted. Thanks. Clearly a different engine, so my posts are wrong.

[alan_fincher]

If it is a Mitsu S4L, I have pushed Diamond Deisels and vetus on this very issue. They just say "use any good quality diesel engine oil." Vetus even approve Synthetic. If it is not the S4L then this obviously does not apply (I used to know the Thornycroft builder, and he used the S4L for a few years.)

Sorry Alan we cross posted. Thanks. Clearly a different engine, so my posts are wrong.

 

I think the base engine is probably a Mitsubishi KD4, which also seems to have been marinised by Sole and also Westerbeke as well as Thorneycroft, but I have had little success determining a range of build dates.

 

It is not, however, a particularly new engine, I believe.

Edited October 6, 2016 by alan_fincher

[dmr]

from the horse's mouth:

 

http://www.api.org/~/media/files/certification/engine-oil-diesel/publications/mom_guide_english_2013.pdf

 

CC is not recommended for diesels built after 1990.

CF is fine.

 

but what do they know?

AFAIK, CF is not intended for turbo engines.

CF- 4 can be used for turbo engines.

 

But they probably don't know much at all about narrowboats. Problem is a lightly loaded engine can have different requirements to an engine in a motor vehicle or whatever.

 

I looked up the best oil for my engine on the Morris website, I then spoke to a tech person at Morris and told him the engine was in a narrowboat and he not only suggested a different oil but advised not to use the one suggested on the website.

 

...............Dave

[alan_fincher]

The Mitsubishi KD4 was apparently built between 1983 and 2000, according to a source I have just found, so it could be as much as 33 years old, (but could clearly be significantly newer.

 

Does the OP have any idea of the age or history of their engine, or how much use it has had since any major rebuild? When was the boat built, and was it likely the engine the boat started out with?

 

EDIT:

 

It is old enough that in the documentation for the Sole marinisation, the main specified oil was a mono-grade SAE 20, with the multi-grade 10W-30 specified only second as an alternative to that.

Edited October 6, 2016 by alan_fincher

[Sea Dog]

From the API website:

 

"If an automotive owner's manual calls for an API SJ or SL oil, an API SM oil will provide full protection. For diesel engines, the latest category usually - but not always - includes the performance properties of an earlier category."

 

The trick is in discovering whether the manual says API-CC (or whatever) because that was the latest spec at the time of writing (they can't specify CD if it's not out yet!) or because your engine is in the "- but not always -" group. My guess is that the former is more likely for a Japanese dumper truck motor and the latter is more likely for a more specialist or vintage engine.

[Celestine]

I gave Montecarlo the benefit of my experience, 30 years in the oil additive business with Lubrizol. If you can't obtain CC then move up to the next available, CD. There may come a time when CD becomes obsolete, so you move on to the next available one.

 

As for engines being manufactured after 1990. API assume that the engine is designed and built after that date, I would thing that the Thorneycroft design, along with many other narrowboat engines, have been around for many years.

 

API's focus is heavy duty applications, HGV and Construction/Quarry Industries. These older specifications are for guidance and are no longer supported by them. A current API lubricant will be licensed. This means the lubricant has been developed and manufactured to a legally binding code of conduct.

 

For the record, API S category is the American gasoline specification. ACEA publish the equivalent European specifications for gasoline (A), passenger car diesel ( and heavy duty diesel (E).