Wiring diagram required for rotary cam changeover switch

[nicknorman]

Is this the 30 minute argument or the full hour? Since I have missed most of it, do I get a discount?

[RLWP]

Is this the 30 minute argument or the full hour? Since I have missed most of it, do I get a discount?

 

Ahh, there you are! Can you go and decipher the diagram?

 

Richard

[nicknorman]

Ahh, there you are! Can you go and decipher the diagram?

 

Richard

Yes, what is there to decipher? The bank of 4 poles are used thus : 2 poles to select between shore or inverter, another 2 poles to select immersion heater (or whatever) on/off. If you only had 2 poles you could permanently connect the immersion to the shore side but you would then need a seperate RCD/MCB. By using the 4 pole switch you just need the one RCD/MCB - the selected supply is sent through that and then back to the switch where, if in shore position, it is sent to the immersion.

 

As I mentioned before you could do it with 3 poles but that would leave the neutral connected to immersion when on inverter which is not best practice. Why not do it right and use a 4 pole switch? It's not hard!

 

All that said we don't have such a switch. I can run the immersion from the inverter if I want to - it is useful if running the engine just to get hot water as an extra 1kw goes to the water and also, since the alternator is loaded up, the engine is working harder, heats the calorifier loop up quicker.

 

Well actually I tend to use the Travelpower - that way we get the immersion heater on, the domestic alternator charging the battery and the charger part of the Combi assisting battery charging (can set the voltage higher than the alternator).

 

You have to remember to turn it off when you stop the engine unless you want flat batteries though. That said, 1kw = 85A or so is good for testing the capacity of the batteries if you so wish.

Edited July 5, 2016 by nicknorman

[Robbo]

You have to remember to turn it off when you stop the engine unless you want flat batteries though. That said, 1kw = 85A or so is good for testing the capacity of the batteries if you so wish.

 

You could use a contactor like the below so you could manually override but not forget you left it on?

 

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/MK6720.html

[WotEver]

Not seeing how a contactor will assist with Nick's memory. How would it help him 'not forget'?

I can see how it could be useful on a conventional 4 pole setup to allow a manual override when required, but not Nick's arrangement.

[Robbo]

Not seeing how a contactor will assist with Nick's memory. How would it help him 'not forget'?

 

It has a "Manual start mode" which means you can override, but it won't be left in this position if the AC is switched on/off. I'm planning on using one so I can use highloads from the inverter if need be, but if I forget to switch it off it will do it for me next time the AC cycles on/off.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Robbo

[nicknorman]

Trouble is, with a combi the switchover to /from inverter power is instantaneous so the contractor would remain closed.

[Robbo]

Trouble is, with a combi the switchover to /from inverter power is instantaneous so the contractor would remain closed.

It was more the override part for when you want to run from inverter/battery I was thinking. Other times it just acts as a relay switched on from the feed to the combi.

[WotEver]

It was more the override part for when you want to run from inverter/battery I was thinking. Other times it just acts as a relay switched on from the feed to the combi.

 

It would just be acting as a switch, which is what Nick does already. It would never disconnect 'automatically'.

[Robbo]

It would just be acting as a switch, which is what Nick does already. It would never disconnect 'automatically'.

 

Yes it would, as its switched using the feed that feeds the combi (which I presume is either from shore and/or his travel power). The source for the immersion is still the inverter so the override works when on the inverter.

[nicknorman]

 

It would just be acting as a switch, which is what Nick does already. It would never disconnect 'automatically'.

 

My switch has a red light on it to remind me that it's on, and doesn't cost £60!

 

If I wanted it foolproof I'd use a spare input to the Empirbus to connect to engine ignition switch or the like to detect "engine running", use an output to power a relay, use a spare button on the Empirbus kepad to "activate" the immersion relay and have the Empirbus automatically turn the relay off when the engine was stopped. Cost would be a 5A 230v rated 12v coil DP relay. I've already thought about having engine run detection because Jeff always forgets to turn off the engine to Central Heating heat exchanger pump when he shuts down, ditto the pump that runs the "foot heater" (blows hot air over the steerer's feet), both of which are powered/controlled via Empirbus.

Edited July 5, 2016 by nicknorman

[Robbo]

My switch has a red light on it to remind me that it's on, and doesn't cost £60!

 

If I wanted it foolproof I'd use a spare input to the Empirbus to connect to engine ignition switch or the like to detect "engine running", use an output to power a relay, use a spare button on the Empirbus kepad to "activate" the immersion relay and have the Empirbus automatically turn the relay off when the engine was stopped. Cost would be a 5A 230v rated 12v coil DP relay. I've already thought about having engine run detection because Jeff always forgets to turn off the engine to Central Heating heat exchanger pump when he shuts down, ditto the pump that runs the "foot heater" (blows hot air over the steerer's feet), both of which are powered/controlled via Empirbus.

If you have the Empirbus system I'm surprised you've not done that already! You could add ammeter's to the system so it only enables the immersion once the batteries are charged!

 

Using the oil pressure sensor may be a good way of detecting if the engine is running, but the ammeter's on the alternator and battery you could do some very smart controlling!

Edited July 5, 2016 by Robbo

[nicknorman]

If you have the Empirbus system I'm surprised you've not done that already! You add ammeter's to the system so it only enables the immersion once the batteries are charged!

Don't really need to do that, with a 175A alternator and 100A available from the Combi (from the Travelpower) that (275A) is far more than the batteries can take.

[WotEver]

 

My switch has a red light on it to remind me that it's on, and doesn't cost £60!

 

If I wanted it foolproof I'd use a spare input to the Empirbus to connect to engine ignition switch or the like to detect "engine running", use an output to power a relay, use a spare button on the Empirbus kepad to "activate" the immersion relay and have the Empirbus automatically turn the relay off when the engine was stopped. Cost would be a 5A 230v rated 12v coil DP relay. I've already thought about having engine run detection because Jeff always forgets to turn off the engine to Central Heating heat exchanger pump when he shuts down, ditto the pump that runs the "foot heater" (blows hot air over the steerer's feet), both of which are powered/controlled via Empirbus.

I was wondering why you hadn't already done that - neat solution plus it replaces Jeff's errant memory. ?

[Robbo]

Don't really need to do that, with a 175A alternator and 100A available from the Combi (from the Travelpower) that (275A) is far more than the batteries can take.

Now that's just showing off!

 

If you had the choice again with the Empirbus would you have gone for the NXT version and what would you have done differently or like to add to the current? I'm looking at the NXT version myself and looking for smart ideas!

[nicknorman]

Now that's just showing off!

If you had the choice again with the Empirbus would you have gone for the NXT version and what would you have done differently or like to add to the current? I'm looking at the NXT version myself and looking for smart ideas!

I haven't researched the NXT version much, by my impression is that it is overly complicated for a narrow boat which doesn't, for example, require interfacing with NMEA and has limited use for analogue IO. More importantly, it's not fully decentralised as the CLC version is. In other words, if any bits of my system fail, anything not directly related continues to work, whereas with NXT, as I understand it if the master bit fails, it all stops. I carry one spare input card, one spare output card, one empty node (with motherboard) and although I have now used both membrane keypads (the second one originally being a spare) have a fallback configuration on the laptop which means I could revert to one keypad if one failed.

 

NXT is much more expensive.

 

On the other hand, for how much longer is CLC going to be supported? NXT probably has a longer product life.

 

As to what done differently, no I think I got it right hardware-wise. Important to build in a bit of extra for those things one wants to subsequently add. In my case that was the pumps for the heating I mentioned. I also went from powering the Mikuni from the system, to powering the Mikuni direct from the batteries (the Empirbus just controls it) and that freed up some outputs. Of course the configuration changed in the early days but it's pretty stable now. For example we had a small "fake" Francis light that was great in tunnels (defocused) but no good for night cruising so when we did the BCN challenge I reconfigured the socket on the roof (for a cratch light, if we ever got a cratch cover) to be operated from the steering position and plugged in a car spotlight which sat on the roof. Then we got a "genuine" Francis light which, even though it is (de)focusable, looks intimidating so to ward off complaints I made it dimmable - so now I dim it right down as boats approach. Then we had a flood from the silly shower sump so I reconfigured to run a Gulper from a flow sensor with timed off etc. All these things are so easy to do with Empirbus.

Edited July 6, 2016 by nicknorman

[Robbo]

I haven't researched the NXT version much,...

 

Thanks for the info, I think the NXT is still for me as I prefer it supporting the NMEA2K standard for controlling and inputting from other devices as well.

[nicknorman]

 

Thanks for the info, I think the NXT is still for me as I prefer it supporting the NMEA2K standard for controlling and inputting from other devices as well.

 

Oops, I said "interfacing with NXT" above, when of course I meant "interfacing with NMEA" - now edited.