New Welfare Guidance for boaters

[GoodGurl]

You can download the PDF at the bottom of the page.

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/enjoy-the-waterways/boating/welfare-guidance

[onionbargee]

"We will also work with key partners to develop the signposting options available to boaters. "

 

I was worried about my signposting options, now my mind is at rest.

[valrene9600]

"We will also work with key partners to develop the signposting options available to boaters. "

I was worried about my signposting options, now my mind is at rest.

Not exactly what it said. Give it a try, welfare is for boaters so try it.

[keif's mate]

onionbargee, on 05 Jan 2016 - 10:50 PM, said:

"We will also work with key partners to develop the signposting options available to boaters. "

 

Is a translation service available?

 

I have NO idea what that sentence is meant to mean.

[Jerra]

 

onionbargee, on 05 Jan 2016 - 10:50 PM, said:

 

Is a translation service available?

 

I have NO idea what that sentence is meant to mean.

 

You are joking I assume. If not here goes.

 

 

We will work with important partners for example local health services, council departments or specialist charities, to signpost (you know what a signpost does surely if not substitute the word point) boaters to the help and advice available to them.

 

More flowery and ve3rbose than needed but perfectly understandable.

 

EDIT: TO add I didn't define partner. In case it is too hard for anybody its - a person who takes part in an undertaking with another

Edited January 5, 2016 by Jerra

[keif's mate]

Jerra,

 

"More flowery and verbose than needed but perfectly understandable."

 

Precisely,

 

so why bother?

[Guest]

You are joking I assume. If not here goes.

 

 

We will work with important partners for example local health services, council departments or specialist charities, to signpost (you know what a signpost does surely if not substitute the word point) boaters to the help and advice available to them.

 

More flowery and ve3rbose than needed but perfectly understandable.

 

EDIT: TO add I didn't define partner. In case it is too hard for anybody its - a person who takes part in an undertaking with another

 

Totally agree. It is perfectly understandable, particularly to it's target audience which actually is not the boating community. (the thread title is actually mis-leading)

 

Download a PDF copy of our Welfare Guidance (Please note that this guidance is primarily aimed at assisting our staff who may come into contact with vulnerable boaters)

 

They are guilty of using a bit of 'in house' jargon I guess but anybody who is capable of engaging a brain cell understands what a sign post is and what it does. It directs people. I find myself laughing sometimes at the stuff that gets posted on here - the same people deride the trust for 'harassing' vulnerable boaters while at the same time deriding CRT's efforts to encourage their staff to take a more supportive approach to boaters in difficulties. (I hope approach isn't too big a word for anybody).

Edited January 6, 2016 by MJG

[bottle]

Steady, not all people have had a good education and their knowledge of the English language may be limited.

 

This is not aimed at any one individual in either camp.

[BruceinSanity]

Totally agree. It is perfectly understandable, particularly to it's target audience which actually is not the boating community. (the thread title is actually mis-leading)

Download a PDF copy of our Welfare Guidance (Please note that this guidance is primarily aimed at assisting our staff who may come into contact with vulnerable boaters)

 

They are guilty of using a bit of 'in house' jargon I guess but anybody who is capable of engaging a brain cell understands what a sign post is and what it does. It directs people. I find myself laughing sometimes at the stuff that gets posted on here - the same people deride the trust for 'harassing' vulnerable boaters while at the same time deriding CRT's efforts to encourage their staff to take a more supportive approach to boaters in difficulties. (I hope approach isn't too big a word for anybody).

Mostly entirely agree with that but the web page is aimed at the user, not the staff. Largely it reads that way too BUT "to signpost" is a horrible example of unnecessarily using a noun as a verb when perfectly adequate verbs are available. "... to make boaters aware of ..." would do the job well and fits with the tone of the rest of the page.

[kbarber]

Mostly entirely agree with that but the web page is aimed at the user, not the staff. Largely it reads that way too BUT "to signpost" is a horrible example of unnecessarily using a noun as a verb when perfectly adequate verbs are available. "... to make boaters aware of ..." would do the job well and fits with the tone of the rest of the page.

However, 'to signpost' has become pretty much standard usage across the whole social care field. It's not a new phenomenon either - I recall it in regular use before I left employment in a social action centre back in 2006. I don't know where it originates (I rather fear, like most unwelcome linguistic developments, it came from across the Pond) but it is certainly the language that will be spoken by the people this paper is written for.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

I think it is welcome but rather late. I do have concerns that it apparently excludes boaters that do not have a licence.

 

It seems to me that, in some cases, the first indication the Trust might have that a boater is vulnerable is when they take action due to an unlicenced boat.

[Guest]

However, 'to signpost' has become pretty much standard usage across the whole social care field. It's not a new phenomenon either - I recall it in regular use before I left employment in a social action centre back in 2006. I don't know where it originates (I rather fear, like most unwelcome linguistic developments, it came from across the Pond) but it is certainly the language that will be spoken by the people this paper is written for.

Correct

[kbarber]

I think it is welcome but rather late. I do have concerns that it apparently excludes boaters that do not have a licence.

 

It seems to me that, in some cases, the first indication the Trust might have that a boater is vulnerable is when they take action due to an unlicenced boat.

Not how I read it - 'Non-compliance of terms or conditions' (which should probably be read to include no licence) is explicitly stated as a trigger. Also,

'Breach of the terms and conditions of the license that are not related to any vulnerabilities' (my italics) is a reason to not offer services. M'learned friends mightn't want to include lack of licence but a welfare officer most certainly should.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

Not how I read it - 'Non-compliance of terms or conditions' (which should probably be read to include no licence) is explicitly stated as a trigger. Also,

'Breach of the terms and conditions of the license that are not related to any vulnerabilities' (my italics) is a reason to not offer services. M'learned friends mightn't want to include lack of licence but a welfare officer most certainly should.

I am reading who the guidance applies to-

 

 

2.) Boaters licenced to navigate on those canals and rivers that we care for and who have been identified as vulnerable. We may, at our discretion, extend the support to the family members of those boaters if the actions of the family member has a direct effect on the boater in need.

[Jerra]

nnecessarily using a noun as a verb

My dictionary has it as a verb as well as a noun.

[BruceinSanity]

However, 'to signpost' has become pretty much standard usage across the whole social care field. It's not a new phenomenon either - I recall it in regular use before I left employment in a social action centre back in 2006. I don't know where it originates (I rather fear, like most unwelcome linguistic developments, it came from across the Pond) but it is certainly the language that will be spoken by the people this paper is written for.

My dictionary has it as a verb as well as a noun.

Sigh... Too late, then. I've obviously been out of this game too long.

 

But my other point was that, whilst the document is aimed at the professionals, both within and without CRT, the webpage itself is meant to be read by the boaters and friends or relatives, and so should be written in the plainest English possible consistent with unambiguity.

[Guest]

 

Sigh... Too late, then. I've obviously been out of this game too long.

 

But my other point was that, whilst the document is aimed at the professionals, both within and without CRT, the webpage itself is meant to be read by the boaters and friends or relatives, and so should be written in the plainest English possible consistent with unambiguity.

 

Sorry but what could be clearer than -

 

We will also work with key partners, for example local health services, council departments or specialist charities, to signpost boaters to the help and advice available to them.

 

I suppose they could replace 'signpost' with 'direct' but in the end it means the same thing.

 

We will also work with key partners, for example local health services, council departments or specialist charities, to direct boaters to the help and advice available to them.

[Gordias]

There may also be a practical element to the choice of wording.

 

Since CaRT aren't responsible for boaters' social welfare, they need to avoid any terminology that suggests they are formally required to help people find the appropriate organizations and services, or that they would fail in their duty to their customers if they didn't do so.

 

Given the ongoing discussions of the possible meanings of words like "reasonable", "place", "navigation", etc it seems unfair to criticize CaRT for being overly careful about their terminology on occasion.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Gordias

[KevMc]

 

Sigh... Too late, then. I've obviously been out of this game too long.

 

But my other point was that, whilst the document is aimed at the professionals, both within and without CRT, the webpage itself is meant to be read by the boaters and friends or relatives, and so should be written in the plainest English possible consistent with unambiguity.

 

Use of language like this, while intended for the target audience needs to be considered carefully. I recently completed a survey for a student in which a question was asked: "What gender do you associate with: Male, Female, Trans, etc" ....

 

Now it so happens I realized they wanted to know how I saw myself but in everyday English "associating" with someone means that you get together with them in a social or other context. Apparently the tutor insisted the question was formulated in this way and as such I believe it totally invalidated the survey because most people won't have understood that meaning.

[Hawthorn]

You may have been ( out of it for too long) but you shouldn't apologise for drawing attention to this appalling tendency that organisations have towards 'corporate speak'. Jargon is a way of excluding a group from the discussion. It can make junior members of any organisation feel they don't know as much as those who 'speak the language' . And for those not even part of an organisation, it can have the effect of making you feel stupid. We should demand plain English. The most ludicrous example of this is the Tesco distribution centre at Fenny Lock (and for all I know others as well) that has been renamed Tesco Fulfilment Centre. However, to return to my first point, be grateful you are out of it, I am too, but just for fun, I read some job titles the other day. It was like doing the Telegraph Toughie crossword.

[Jerra]

You may have been ( out of it for too long) but you shouldn't apologise for drawing attention to this appalling tendency that organisations have towards 'corporate speak'. Jargon is a way of excluding a group from the discussion. It can make junior members of any organisation feel they don't know as much as those who 'speak the language' . And for those not even part of an organisation, it can have the effect of making you feel stupid. We should demand plain English. The most ludicrous example of this is the Tesco distribution centre at Fenny Lock (and for all I know others as well) that has been renamed Tesco Fulfilment Centre. However, to return to my first point, be grateful you are out of it, I am too, but just for fun, I read some job titles the other day. It was like doing the Telegraph Toughie crossword.

I would agree with the various comments about the wording needing to be clear and easy to understand but I can't accept that "key partners" and "signpost boaters" is either corporate speak or unintelligible to most people. Certainly the majority of children I have taught could have worked it out.

[Hawthorn]

I would agree with the various comments about the wording needing to be clear and easy to understand but I can't accept that "key partners" and "signpost boaters" is either corporate speak or unintelligible to most people. Certainly the majority of children I have taught could have worked it out.

That is hardly the point. I accept that language is dynamic, and the use of archaic phrases can be just as much of a hindrance to understanding, but in the example you have given, the meaning would be even more clear without the redundant word 'key'. Regarding the use of 'signpost' as a verb, this is jargon, beginning in academic institutions as a device for directing the reader to salient points in an essay. It does not aid understanding.

[Jerra]

That is hardly the point. I accept that language is dynamic, and the use of archaic phrases can be just as much of a hindrance to understanding, but in the example you have given, the meaning would be even more clear without the redundant word 'key'. Regarding the use of 'signpost' as a verb, this is jargon, beginning in academic institutions as a device for directing the reader to salient points in an essay. It does not aid understanding.

But signpost doesn't hinder understanding either and is sufficiently acceptable to be in modern dictionaries.

 

The snag with missing the word key out is it gives a different meaning. With partners means all partners with key partners means the important ones, the ones most likely to be able to help. You can bet your bottom dollar somebody would be complaining (people complain about CRT perish the thought) if they contacted some obscure organisation which hadn't been included if the word key wasn't there.

[dave moore]

More jargonistic bollocks, I'm afraid. The world is beset with such tripe these days. A signpost pointed the way to somewhere, physically, when I was a youngster. Am I the only one to give scant attention to the Boaters' Update that CRT send me regularly?

 

Grumpy Dave

[Mike Todd]

It is important to distinguish between 'signpost' and 'advise/advice'.

 

In the former case, information is given without prejudice - in other words CaRT are not to be held liable for the quality or accuracy of it. The recipient can take it or leave it on their own responsibility.

 

Whilst giving advice still does not require the person advised to follow that advice there is a duty on the advisor who can be held liable if it proves wrong or unwise. Equally, there may be circumstances when failure to follow advice can carry adverse consequences such as with insurance.

 

Given the public debate in the recent past about how far CaRT should go in its duty of care for boaters, especially with regard to housing legislation, it is most sensible for CaRT to be clear about the limits on what they can do (they do not offer or resource a comprehensive service) - and other licence payers may well be grateful since, as local authorities have discovered, this is an area of rapidly increasing demand and hence cost which they are seeking to limit.

 

You may not agree with their stated limits but that is something that can then be properly debated as a matter of public policy.