Are Boaters really Green?

[anthony]

I recently read that coal produces twice as much Co2 as gas.

With so many liva aboards using coal and other solid fuel IM keen to know if there is in fact any truth in this?

How about burning wood what enviromental effect does this have?

[KenK]

I recently read that coal produces twice as much Co2 as gas.

With so many liva aboards using coal and other solid fuel IM keen to know if there is in fact any truth in this?

How about burning wood what enviromental effect does this have?

 

Given that coal contains more potential energy than an equivalent amount of wood you need to burn more wood to obtain the same amount of heat. In reality if you are burning any kind of fuel your producing CO2, so your not green but you are warm.

 

To be honest I'm rather fed up with the green lobby, most of the proposals are rubbish and don't work in practice. Carbon footprint, I don't take the plane, it still flies, still chucks out the same amount of rubbish into the atmosphere, but my carbon footprint is less so I feel good about myself! And as for windfarms, yes I know I'm off topic but I enjoyed the rant.

 

Ken

[carlt]

I recently read that coal produces twice as much Co2 as gas.

With so many liva aboards using coal and other solid fuel IM keen to know if there is in fact any truth in this?

How about burning wood what enviromental effect does this have?

Wood is a renewable energy source which is, technically, carbon neutral, in the same way as bio diesel is supposed to be.

Of course the 'green hippy' types that 'only burn windfall logs' are damaging the environment on a more local level by ignoring the vital role windfall wood provides as a habitat for wild life.

Cruising about in a new steel boat has produced a lot of logs (or coal) worth of CO2 so in order to be 'green' you should recycle an old hull and use recycled steel to patch it up. Or have a hull made of the only truly renewable material. Of course aluminium is even worse than steel.

Using plywood or mdf in your fitout is bad for the environment because the bonding agents and manufacturing methods produce all sorts of nasties which, as most of it is produced in third world countries, would have questionable disposal systems.

 

I went into Sainsburys the other day and saw they had 'Free range egg' Quiches. I took it to the inquiries desk and asked if the bacon was free range as well. It transpired it wasn't. Apparently we won't buy chicken products reared in boxes but we don't care how a pig is produced. Boating is much the same, great for the environment in parts but bad in others.

[Bones]

we might be green because we have less space? I imagine the average household would use far less and store far less and be more conscious about waste if they lived on their landing (equivelant space) with the bin in the same space?

[Bobphilips]

I recently read that coal produces twice as much Co2 as gas.

With so many liva aboards using coal and other solid fuel IM keen to know if there is in fact any truth in this?

How about burning wood what enviromental effect does this have?

 

Good question. Probably the totally traditional boats are not the most environmentally friendly form of transport. But I have seen a growing number of environmentally friendly products for boaters to employ. There are solar panels to help generate some electrical power (for lights etc) and to heat water. I have even seen a hydrogen fuel cell (though in early stages of development) that is intended for just such a task.

 

There is a chap, cannot remember his name right now, who provides internal LED lighting for boats. These save on a lot of the power required to run them and last an awful lot longer than conventional bulbs.

 

Does anyone else know of Green things that boaters do or can do?

[gaggle]

this green alternative energy, them that plan to save the earth by changing thier cars to use gas have found that the budget added extra tax to the gas.

so much for the alternative being greener and better for the world, just another way to kid the sheepies to spend money on the conversion and then begin the steady rise in price for the fuel.

green fools.

Edited March 28, 2007 by gaggle

[carlt]

Good question. Probably the totally traditional boats are not the most environmentally friendly form of transport.

This is incorrect. The older a boat is the more environmentally sound. Every year an old boat is kept alive is another year a new boat is not built.

My boats (and vintage engine), like my classic cars, have paid for themselves environmentally by not being replaced. And when I read the fuel consumption figures for your modern engines I can understand why you're all up in arms about red diesel finishing.

 

Also, until some scumbag stole them all last week, my electrical needs were almost entirely satisfied by solar panels. On the top plank of my 'totally traditional boat'.

 

I can't expect you all to switch to wooden boats (and use renewable materials to maintain them) but an old steel boat is far better environmentally than a new build.

 

this green alternative energy, them that plan to save the earth by changing thier cars to use gas have found that the budget added extra tax to the gas.

so much for the alternative being greener and better for the world, just another way to kid the sheepies to spend money on the conversion and then begin the steady rise in price for the fuel.

green fools.

Can't argue with that, though some (not me!) would say that to save the planet, you may have to spend more.

[Bobphilips]

This is incorrect. The older a boat is the more environmentally sound. Every year an old boat is kept alive is another year a new boat is not built...

I can't expect you all to switch to wooden boats (and use renewable materials to maintain them) but an old steel boat is far better environmentally than a new build.

 

Very good point carlt. As with a lot of things in society in general if they were looked after and cherished there would be little or no need to replace them. I did have in mind the older type of hire boat chugging about spluttering out diesel fumes simply because it wasn't looked after.

 

Sorry to hear your solar panels were pinched. Great to hear that more people are taking them onboard and using them.

[carlt]

Great to hear that more people are taking them onboard and using them.

I just wish they weren't using mine!

 

As far asold hire boats go, they are still counting for one less new build. And, as most smoke/particulate pollution is unburnt diesel, presumably this means less CO2.

[John Orentas]

There are many live-aboards who manage to persuade themselves that they are living a 'green' lifestyle, the image they portray is that they sit in their Eco-friendly little boat burning a tiny amount of waste fuel which would otherwise have gone for landfill, huddled under a home-made blanket made from recycled wool, a smug, self satisfied smile on their faces, knitting their next pair of socks.

 

I am still waiting for one of them to tell me what is so worthy of celestial brownie points as fifteen tons of steel what is so environmentally unfriendly about a brick. The most efficient way to generate electrical power whichever way you measure it is by means of large power stations and the most effective and the only emission free fuel is nuclear power, yes there are windmills and solar panels, how many of these would be needed to smelt your fifteen tons of steel.

 

I could go on, but that will do for now.

[Bobphilips]

There are many live-aboards who manage to persuade themselves that they are living a 'green' lifestyle, the image they portray is that they sit in their Eco-friendly little boat burning a tiny amount of waste fuel which would otherwise have gone for landfill, huddled under a home-made blanket made from recycled wool, a smug, self satisfied smile on their faces, knitting their next pair of socks.

 

I am still waiting for one of them to tell me what is so worthy of celestial brownie points as fifteen tons of steel what is so environmentally unfriendly about a brick. The most efficient way to generate electrical power whichever way you measure it is by means of large power stations and the most effective and the only emission free fuel is nuclear power, yes there are windmills and solar panels, how many of these would be needed to smelt your fifteen tons of steel.

 

I could go on, but that will do for now.

 

I like it ... a devlis advocate.

 

The emphasis here has to be on maintianing the fleet of boats already made and available on the waterways, so that lots of new replacement boats are not required. Where they are needed then the new boats should have stricter recycling and build guidelines/conditions applied to them. I am not advocating massively expensive build costs for completely environmentally friendly boats just better than they are now.

 

Does anyone know of a boat builder who caters for this kind of market?

[carlt]

Does anyone know of a boat builder who caters for this kind of market?

Pay them enough, be absolutely specific about your needs and they probably all say they do (though many of them won't, in reality).

[David Schweizer]

Wood is a renewable energy source which is, technically, carbon neutral, in the same way as bio diesel is supposed to be.

Of course the 'green hippy' types that 'only burn windfall logs' are damaging the environment on a more local level by ignoring the vital role windfall wood provides as a habitat for wild life.....

I agree totally, what is more I have seen some of these so called ecologicaly friendly boaters "encouraging" branches to fall from trees with the aid of a chainsaw. A friend of mine farms a organic smallholding next top the canal, and I have had to assist him on more than one occassion to chase these people out of his copse. He manages his trees in a way that is sympathetic with nature, and then along come these louts with their chainsaws wreaking havock, damaging the trees by cutting branches off at the wrong time of the year, and disturbing nesting birds. They are not green at all, just sponging (or sometimes stealing) off others.

Edited March 28, 2007 by David Schweizer

[Bobphilips]

Pay them enough, be absolutely specific about your needs and they probably all say they do (though many of them won't, in reality).

 

Bit like the organic food producgts in supermarkets - lip service to what being trully organic means.

 

Would be interested if anyone does know of a boat builders that is, at least in principle, more sustainable in its boat building.

 

Being slightly naive here... but is there readily available tuning and servicing for boat engines.. bit like a cars annual/ six monthly service. If so do many boaters bother with it and is it costly?

[elessina]

I am still waiting for one of them to tell me what is so worthy of celestial brownie points as fifteen tons of steel what is so environmentally unfriendly about a brick. The most efficient way to generate electrical power whichever way you measure it is by means of large power stations and the most effective and the only emission free fuel is nuclear power, yes there are windmills and solar panels, how many of these would be needed to smelt your fifteen tons of steel.

Rather tongue in cheek…. but you seem to be implying that if you own both a house and boat you are not environmentally friendly, own one or the other and you are much more environmentally healthy, and especially so if you liveaboard and plug into the mains.

[Serendipity]

Being slightly naive here... but is there readily available tuning and servicing for boat engines.. bit like a cars annual/ six monthly service. If so do many boaters bother with it and is it costly?

 

Yes, River Canal Rescue will do it for you (look at the maintenance page). I am a member, but do not use this service so cannot comment on value for money.

 

edited for spelling!

Edited March 28, 2007 by Serendipity

[NB Alnwick]

We think we are quite green - both our cars are green all over and most of the boat is green but the living accommodation is a grey area so we will be painting that grey later this year . . .

All about our 'new' 1967 MGB GT

Edited March 28, 2007 by NB Alnwick

[blackrose]

There are many live-aboards who manage to persuade themselves that they are living a 'green' lifestyle...

Yes, there's a lot of confusion in people's minds between self-sufficiency & being environmentally friendly - thay are not the same thing. It's a common misconception that if you generate your own heat & power then it's greener. A friend of mine came over the other day on a comparatively mild evening when I had the electric heater on instead of the solid fuel stove and he seemed to think that economically & environmentally it was better to use the stove. I had to explain that not only was it more expensive for me to burn coal, but that it was probably more inefficient too. The stove kicks out 8kw when it's really going so I only use it when it gets cold, otherwise a 2.5kw electric heater is fine. Another one was a hippy on the towpath who saw me running a small suitcase generator and berated me for not using solar panels. I later saw her in the pub car park driving off in a large 4x4.

 

In reality most boats are not as well insulated as houses - few have double glazing and those who try to convince themselves they are living a green lifestyle are deluded. The only environmental positive I can see is that most boaters are inherently more aware of the amount energy they use than the average householder and therefore many try to limit or reduce their consumption.

 

The most efficient way to generate electrical power whichever way you measure it is by means of large power stations and the most effective and the only emission free fuel is nuclear power...

I heard that by the time electricity is generated by oil or coal fired power stations and then delivered to homes via the national grid only about 30% of the calorific value of the burned fuel is actually available. I don't know how this compares to a solid fuel stove for example, but I would imagine that at least 60% of the heat goes out through the flue - probably more.

 

Nuclear power may be carbon-free but it's certainly not emission free. Low level radioactive emissions going out into the Irish Sea and other stored solid wastes are emissions.

Edited March 28, 2007 by blackrose

[carlt]

Would be interested if anyone does know of a boat builders that is, at least in principle, more sustainable in its boat building.

 

 

Jem Bates

[Bobphilips]

I like the look and general approach of the Bates Boatyard to building and restoring historic wooden boats. Wonder what the cost differences are like? If they aren't too much more than the more modern steel built boats then they deserve to be promoted and held up as an example.

 

The problem with most 'green schemes' seems to be cost. People by nature go for biggest bang for your buck, unfortunately. Maybe this attitude is changing?

[carlt]

I like the look and general approach of the Bates Boatyard to building and restoring historic wooden boats. Wonder what the cost differences are like? If they aren't too much more than the more modern steel built boats then they deserve to be promoted and held up as an example.

 

The problem with most 'green schemes' seems to be cost. People by nature go for biggest bang for your buck, unfortunately. Maybe this attitude is changing?

Maid of Oak, the new boat Jem built from scratch is here (though very out of date as they're cruising it now). I would imagine the build cost is similar to a bespoke steel boat. The routine maintenance costs are broadly similar, if a little more labour intensive.

[NB Alnwick]

The biggest environmental crime that our present generation is committing relates to the millions of tons of rubbish that we send every year for landfill - when boating we try our best to avoid buying food and provisions with unecessary packaging and we burn those items that cannot be recycled. Nevertheless, there are many areas where we can do our bit to avoid excessive waste:

 

Use rechargeable batteries in torches;

Use wind up watches instead of those with poiseness disposable power cells;

Recycle all paper, card, glass and metals;

Take a proper shopping basket when shopping so that you don't bring unecessary plastic bags home;

Use proper butchers shops where they exist so that you dont get your meat in plastic packaging;

 

Lots more ideas out there but one quandry is the disposal of ash from the fire - we burn wood or Anthracite - both of which produce minimal ash and the little that we do get is easy to dispose of in BW waste bins - but many boaters empty the ash onto the side of tow-path which may well be illegal under present legislation.

 

Many years ago when I worked for the Great Central Railway we used to supply locomotive ash, clinker and burned cinders free of charge to BW for surfacing paths - in those days it was classified as a 'construction material' rather than as waste but I believe the regs have changed in the last five years . . .

[StoneHenge]

I wouldn't say I was more environmentally friendly than anyone else. I recycle what I can, and I'm sure that helps somewhere along the line.

 

I also now use a solar panel, and I think in the long term we will cut out fuel and electricity costs by at least a quarter if not more in the good summer months.

 

I think by doing that we are using less from power stations, and saving a bit of money in the every day expenses (such as electricity cards etc).

 

I will hopefully swap to LED lighting at some point soon, and try and be as green as is practically possible.

 

But I'm not green by any means. I still drive a car, use petrol, burn coal and wood (pallets due to be thrown anyway from work).

 

I totally disagree with taking fallen wood unless it's been felled and bundled for such purposes which does happen if you get friendly with lots of people with large gardens and trees!

 

No-one is perfect after all.

[carlt]

Lots more ideas out there but one quandry is the disposal of ash from the fire - we burn wood or Anthracite - both of which produce minimal ash and the little that we do get is easy to dispose of in BW waste bins - but many boaters empty the ash onto the side of tow-path which may well be illegal under present legislation.

Mine goes down the side of the boat to rack seams. If you're travelling save them for lock gates. A bucket of ashes down the back of the gate is great for plugging leaks.

[blackrose]

Use proper butchers shops where they exist so that you dont get your meat in plastic packaging;

 

Don't butcher's shops use plastic bags too? Plastics have a bad name but if they are separated into different polymer types thay can also be recycled just as they are in some countries. The problem in the UK is that we don't invest in this sort of infrastructure. In Scandanavia they even recycle Tetrapak cartons, separating the laminate layers out into their various constituents.

 

You also have to remember that recycling is an industrial process with its own set of environmental impacts and a market has to exist for the recycled end product. It's no good recycling if what is produced cannot be used. An enormous amout of energy is used to recycle paper & card, often only to produce a very low quality product for which there is no market. In addition, much of the recyclables are contaminated by those who may mean well, but in their almost religious fervour add unusable elements to the recycling bin rendering the whole batch useless.

 

Anyway, those who claim to be that dedicated shouldn't be eating meat in the first place. Meat production has a huge environmental impact from it's energy consumption to the livestock methane emissions.

Edited March 28, 2007 by blackrose