Oakdale

[tom_c]

that propellor looks like a Kelvin blade, do you know what engine is fitted?

Tom

[Bekaybe]

that propellor looks like a Kelvin blade, do you know what engine is fitted?

Tom

Lister HA3 according to the National Register of Historic Vessels

[Bekaybe]

You seem to know a lot about oak dale bekaybe,

I didn't mean to be rude about the pumping out, just happened to notice the pump as tide came in.

I posted about Oakdale because I was really pleased to see such a nice boat and I was intrigued to what type of boat it is.

 

Regards kris

Kris, did you notice the Severn Iris tug whilst you were there? 1903 I think she was built.

[kris88]

Kris, did you notice the Severn Iris tug whilst you were there? 1903 I think she was built.

I did notice it yes, that was the boat nearest, the sea wall.

 

Regards kris

[Bekaybe]

Does anyone have any photographs of the bow framing on Oakdale? I'm interested in the 'Yorkshire influence' in her construction. If nobody has any photographs I shall make an effort to visit Oakdale and see if I can get some.

[Pluto]

I don't have photos of the framing on Oakdale, but this is Bedale, a more typical Mersey flat:

The bow frames radiate out from the end of the kelson, and the hooks are joined by a knee behind the stempost/apron.

 

On a keel, such as the Ethel seen below, the bow/stern framing is different, being almost at a right angle to the rearmost cross frame. The hooks are in three parts which overlap. Oakdale uses this type of framing, the design having travelled across the Pennines via the L&LC.

 

I wrote an article which looks at the variation in construction of wooden canal boats in vol 3/2001 of Waterways Journal, and Mike Stammers has an article about flat building at Runcorn in vol 5/2003.

Edited January 28, 2016 by Pluto

[Bekaybe]

Thank you for the photos Pluto. I noticed that Edward Paget-Tomlinson's book on Mersey and Weaver Flats has a picture of the Fred Abel on page 27, and knowing that Heathdale, Fred Abel, Oakdale, and Ruth Bate were all built to the same design, I was curious as to why these Flats would be constructed differently to all others. Given that Oakdale is still afloat, I decided to visit her this weekend to see the bow framing for myself and take some photographs.

 

I have to report that the bow frames, or Cants as the owner calls them, are exactly as shown in your photograph of Bedale, and nothing like those in Ethel.

 

I will endeavour to post some photographs, once I have dried out and figured out how to post them.

[Bekaybe]

 

Framing in the bow of Mersey Flat Oakdale

 

[Pluto]

In the 1930s, Mayors, the Tarleton boatbuilders, were asked to measure one of the L&LC boats built by Ramsey's at Shipley, as Yorkshire boats had a much bluffer bow which increased their carrying capacity. My old boat Pluto was built to the lines developed at that time and would have loaded over 50 tons, a few tons more than the boats built with 'Lancashire' lines. The shape on either side of the Pennines developed from the building techniques used originally, clinker in Yorkshire and carvel in Lancashire, though only carvel was used by the early 20th century.

 

I suspect that barge builders on the Mersey saw what was happening on the L&LC and then developed their own take on the design. Certainly the bluff-bowed flat only appeared from the late1940s. As on the L&LC, they retained their traditional style of Lancashire framing. I suspect that the design of hull shape also reflected the different tidal conditions in the Mersey and Humber, with the former requiring finer lines to make handling faster as the estuary was more restricted. I think all the bluff-bowed flats were built for towing rather than sailing, which made this less of a problem.

[Bekaybe]

Very interesting theories, Pluto. I don't doubt that the L&LC played a part in technology transfer in both directions, but I think bluff bowed Mersey Flats existed long before the late 1940s. Sailing Flat Shooting Star (1877) had a very bluff bow [Mersey Flats and Flatmen, Stammers, page 5] and Mersey Flat Fred Abel (1936) is exactly the same shape as Oakdale, both being built using the same templates and on iron frames that were ordered in 1929. Abel built no Flats during the war and didn't expect to build any after the war either. Why would they choose to significantly change the shape for the only 2 Flats they built after the war? We now know there was no need to change the frame structure to achieve the bluff bow, as per your earlier suggestion. Perhaps the need to maximise carrying capacity on the cuts was the reason for bluff bows? This, of course, is limited by the size of the locks.

 

I have a contact who saw Oakdale being built and he knows a gentleman who actually worked on building her. I'm intending to contact this gentleman whilst it's still possible to glean more knowledge on the building methods used.

[Pluto]

Flat bows were bluff above water level, but, to me, the traditional ones are much finer under water than a keel. As in this photo of Mossdale, the last survivor - just! - the bottom of the stempost is raked backwards much more than you would find on a keel, and the quarters are also much less bluff. The style of framing bow and stern would certainly have affected this. It was these areas which were 'enlarged' as a result of Yorkshire influence, and the bluffness of the bows of flats certainly seemed to become much more like a keel during the mid-20th century. Prior to that, even the iron flats seem to have finer lines, though there are probably ones I haven't considered. The need for fine lines at the bow probably results from the requirements for good handling on the estuary, where conditions on the Mersey were different from those on the Humber.

 

Traditions did travel in the opposite direction as the square stern was not used in Yorkshire until after the L&LC was completed, and then only a few examples, mainly on the C&HN, were built, apart from by yards on the L&LC in Yorkshire. In the 18th and 19th centuries, the square stern was how flats and short boats in Lancashire could maximise carrying capacity, rather than by the very full bow found in Yorkshire.

 

[Bekaybe]

Pluto, you have mentioned that you did some work on Oakdale in the 1970s. What work did you do exactly?, and for whom? I presume it was for Frank Boothby.

 

What I'm struggling to understand here Pluto, is how you have been happily telling people how the bow frames of Oakdale are constructed similar to a Yorkshire Keel and not like a Mersey Flat, when it seems apparent to all who are reading this thread that you have probably never seen the bow frames on Oakdale. Can you please explain, to ALL who are reading this thread, WHY you are presenting yourself as an expert on something you seem to know very little about?

 

You could have just gone and had a look at Oakdale for yourself if you were unsure.

[Bee]

There's a bit of the Dutch Tjalk about Mossdale. I'm looking at the forefoot really with all that extra deadwood sticking out. I stand to be corrected but I've always assumed that its there to help prevent the bow being blown back and to help it carrying through a tack when going about. I think it is called a luff holder or something like that in Dutch. I was told years ago that they (keels and other northern UK boats) could have shared some sort of common ancestor but then I don't really know.

[Pluto]

Pluto, you have mentioned that you did some work on Oakdale in the 1970s. What work did you do exactly?, and for whom? I presume it was for Frank Boothby.

 

What I'm struggling to understand here Pluto, is how you have been happily telling people how the bow frames of Oakdale are constructed similar to a Yorkshire Keel and not like a Mersey Flat, when it seems apparent to all who are reading this thread that you have probably never seen the bow frames on Oakdale. Can you please explain, to ALL who are reading this thread, WHY you are presenting yourself as an expert on something you seem to know very little about?

 

You could have just gone and had a look at Oakdale for yourself if you were unsure.

Please do not report what I have said incorrectly. I have not said that the framing is similar, but that the shape of more recent Lancashire-built boats has been developed from the bluffer Yorkshire boats, and I have archive evidence for that relating to L&LC boats. What I have said is that there is a difference between the Yorkshire tradition of boat building and that in Lancashire, and that those differences tend to create a different bow and stern shape. During the 20th century, those shapes have become more similar, but there remains a difference because what you can achieve with one style of framing is more difficult with the other. Traditionally-built Yorkshire boats will always be bluffer than those from Lancashire because of the style of framing.

 

Regarding working on Oakdale, I don't remember who asked me to look at her, but it was not Frank Boothby, who was using Roland as his restaurant boat at the time. Oakdale had sunk at Burscough, and I was asked to check for leaks and to see if she would go on drydock at Burscough. IIRC, Oakdale was 15 feet 6 ins wide, and thus too wide to get into the dock. The reason for sinking was a hole made for a drain just above normal water level when someone had started conversion to a residential boat, which I plugged so she could be pumped out. I don't claim to be a boat builder, but at that time I did work on several wooden L&LC boats and a couple of C&HN ones. In the 1970s and 1980s I visited and photographed the remains of wooden barges around this country, and later in France, Holland and Germany, so do have some comparative knowledge of the subject.

[Derek R.]

Compare to Pluto's image of MOSSDALE:

 

This is a model of an 18thC Dutch sailing vessel.

 

Line drawings of a Staverse jol (30:1)

 

 

And from model plans:

 

LH - Loefhouder - which translates into 'windward holder'

 

[Bekaybe]

Let me refresh your memory Pluto.

 

From your posts of 2013:

"Oakdale was one of the last wooden flats to be built, and at 15 feet 6 in wide, could only just reach Burscough, where the photo was taken, but was too wide for the drydock there. Her construction is interesting, in that the framework showed Yorkshire influence"

 

 

From this thread:

"On a keel, such as the Ethel seen below, the bow/stern framing is different, being almost at a right angle to the rearmost cross frame. The hooks are in three parts which overlap. Oakdale uses this type of framing, the design having travelled across the Pennines via the L&LC."

 

You clearly showed the frames in Bedale and the frames in Ethel, stating that "Oakdale uses this type of framing"

 

My question how can you make these statements if you hadn't seen the framework on Oakdale? She was sunk when you worked on her, was she not? So when was it that you saw the framework in Oakdale in order to be sure enough to make those statements?

 

For the record, Oakdale is 15 feet 9.5 inches wide. She was sold to Rea's in 1963, along with Ruth Bate. Rea's sold both in about 1966, Ruth Bate to a Red Cross group and Oakdale to Lydiate St Thomas's church. St Thomas's kept Oakdale until about 1972 when Frank Boothby acquired her. The current owner bought her from Frank in 1976 and pumped her out himself.

 

The current owner of Oakdale claims to have never met you, but when I mentioned that you owned Pluto, he laughed heartily for a good while and suggested I ask you where Pluto is now. So one final question, if I may, where is Pluto now?

 

[Derek R.]

Blimey - I can feel the sparks from 'ere!

[DRP]

No, it's not sparks.

 

It's simply obnoxious behaviour.

 

I deliberated for a long time before joining these forums because of the frequency of un-moderated aggressive rudeness like this; and it looks as though it won't be long before I leave again.

 

David.

[Pluto]

Let me refresh your memory Pluto.

 

From your posts of 2013:

"Oakdale was one of the last wooden flats to be built, and at 15 feet 6 in wide, could only just reach Burscough, where the photo was taken, but was too wide for the drydock there. Her construction is interesting, in that the framework showed Yorkshire influence"

 

 

From this thread:

"On a keel, such as the Ethel seen below, the bow/stern framing is different, being almost at a right angle to the rearmost cross frame. The hooks are in three parts which overlap. Oakdale uses this type of framing, the design having travelled across the Pennines via the L&LC."

 

You clearly showed the frames in Bedale and the frames in Ethel, stating that "Oakdale uses this type of framing"

 

My question how can you make these statements if you hadn't seen the framework on Oakdale? She was sunk when you worked on her, was she not? So when was it that you saw the framework in Oakdale in order to be sure enough to make those statements?

 

For the record, Oakdale is 15 feet 9.5 inches wide. She was sold to Rea's in 1963, along with Ruth Bate. Rea's sold both in about 1966, Ruth Bate to a Red Cross group and Oakdale to Lydiate St Thomas's church. St Thomas's kept Oakdale until about 1972 when Frank Boothby acquired her. The current owner bought her from Frank in 1976 and pumped her out himself.

 

The current owner of Oakdale claims to have never met you, but when I mentioned that you owned Pluto, he laughed heartily for a good while and suggested I ask you where Pluto is now. So one final question, if I may, where is Pluto now?

Pluto was burnt out after vandals set fire to her when on the bank at what was then the Boat Museum at Ellesmere Port.

 

On the framing, below is the breast hook on Bedale which is fabricated in several pieces, rather than the two usually found on Lancashire boats, in order to get a much squarer shape to the bow than on earlier flats, and the use of such fabricated hooks is something found on many keels in Yorkshire. From photos taken at the time, it would have been 1975 when I did the work on Oakdale, but I don't remember it being for Frank, who I knew well at the time. It is forty years ago.

[Bekaybe]

It was not my intention to be offensive. I was just trying to clear up a few misunderstandings.

 

So, my apologies, Pluto, if I offended you.

 

You do, however, have an open invitation to visit Oakdale and have tea, sticky buns and a good look around Oakdale for yourself.

[steamcompound]

Pluto was where the Boat Museum restaurant is now, it was under cover and stabile (the Art/chemical sense). The roof fell on the hull. A few heavier timbers remained after the fire but nothing that was worth saving. The fire was late 1984 or early 1985 and I think the Boat Museum Society report was headed RIP Pluto.

Edited February 6, 2016 by steamcompound

[RLWP]

 

So one final question, if I may, where is Pluto now?

 

 

Richard

[Pluto]

It was not my intention to be offensive. I was just trying to clear up a few misunderstandings.

 

So, my apologies, Pluto, if I offended you.

 

You do, however, have an open invitation to visit Oakdale and have tea, sticky buns and a good look around Oakdale for yourself.

I may well take you up on your offer at some time. I suspect that the problem arose from you speaking specifically about Oakdale, while my comments were more general. I still think the moulded shape of wooden Mersey barges changed quite significantly in the mid-20th century though!

 

On Pluto, she was, as most wooden L&LC craft at the time, not in the best of condition. When I should have been doing some remedial work, I ended up trying to reduce leakage on George and Scorpio. It was perhaps unfortunate, as I was just one of two people who tried to 'restore' a wooden short boat back to its original condition. Geoff Wheat did something similar with Frank, though Frank was originally a coal boat, so somewhat different in detail design. The difficulty I had was lack of finance, and there was also a general lack of knowledge of, and interest in, the boats and traditions on the L&LC, a situation which I think I have gone some way to changing. What upsets me most about the loss of Pluto was that the cabin could not be saved. It was the last surviving cabin on a wooden L&LC boat in anything like its original condition, including the rather faded and blistered paintwork. I would have been happy for the boat to be cut up if the cabin could have been saved.

[Bee]

Thanks Derek,

Windward holder, that makes sense, on some boats the 'notch' on or near the waterline would be better described as the 'Duck holder' as the local mallards seem to think its specially provided for them.

[bargemast]

Thanks Derek,

Windward holder, that makes sense, on some boats the 'notch' on or near the waterline would be better described as the 'Duck holder' as the local mallards seem to think its specially provided for them.

The pictures of Derek's post clearly show what a "windward holder" looks like, but the Dutch don't call it "loefhouder" which was a very ancient name, but it's called a " loefbijter", a "windward biter".

 

The boat in the second picture is the only roundbottomed ex-fishing boat (that I know of) built without leeboards (zij-zwaarden) the Staverse Jol type.

 

Peter.