How wide is a General Area?

[eggpie]

I've just received this nugget from CRT:

 

"Weve been looking at our sighting records and they suggest that your boat XXXXXX has been moored in the same general area for more than 14 days."

 

For context, imagine a journey of ABCD (actually much longer). Having travelled to D, the boat turns round and returns to somewhere fairly near C, but definitively not C. Lets call it C2.

 

I'm assuming that the spotters have missed the trip to D (definitely far enough), and I'd have accepted the warning if I'd overstayed at C (which the message suggests they accept I haven't done), so this must mean that they think C and C2 are too near each other.

 

How big is a "general area". Is it bigger than a neighbourhood or a place? Is there a map? If its okay to warn boaters who moor too near previously visited spots, how exactly should one make a return journey these days?

[spadefoot]

Ask them for more details. Like which general area, and them tell them where you've actually been and explain that you have perfectly legitimately turned around and headed back.

[Higgs]

I've just received this nugget from CRT:

 

"Weve been looking at our sighting records and they suggest that your boat XXXXXX has been moored in the same general area for more than 14 days."

 

For context, imagine a journey of ABCD (actually much longer). Having travelled to D, the boat turns round and returns to somewhere fairly near C, but definitively not C. Lets call it C2.

 

I'm assuming that the spotters have missed the trip to D (definitely far enough), and I'd have accepted the warning if I'd overstayed at C (which the message suggests they accept I haven't done), so this must mean that they think C and C2 are too near each other.

 

How big is a "general area". Is it bigger than a neighbourhood or a place? Is there a map? If its okay to warn boaters who moor too near previously visited spots, how exactly should one make a return journey these days?

 

 

Your trip, you are saying, and according to their information, was from a reference point of C. They, according to their spotting, have found you very close to C, still, after 14 days. Your maximum travel distance was from C to D, returning to a point very close to C. How far is D away from C, and, what is their spotting data. If D is some distance from C and they've missed spotting you at D, they do not have a complete set of spotting records.

[W+T]

Be best to keep a log of your travels maybe. still had to prove it but its something.

[Southern Star]

I've seen the CRT spotters with their hand-held devices, but I don't know very much at all about how their system works. I had assumed that as well as inputting the boat registration number, the spotter would also input the direction the boat was facing when spotted. Obviously is a boat was spotted in the same or similar place 15 days apart, but facing in a different direction on both occasions, then it will have moved in between. Does anyone know if it does work like this?

[Martin Megson]

Be best to keep a log of your travels maybe. still had to prove it but its something.

I'm a CCer and take a photo of my mooring with my iPhone that provides a date and gps data to confirm location. It also provides a handy reminder of all my moorings.

[Arthur Marshall]

If they think your boat is called XXXXX when it's actually called lady Ivana, I'd tell them they'd spotted the wrong boat. What else does the letter say? Is it just saying let us know if you disagree, or does it suggest they're going to start proceedings and scrap your licence? And (sorry for all this) but is it the first time?

[b0atman]

I wonder if our 2 tv stars have been picked up by the enforcers after all they do go through Banbury and return on a regular basis or would common sense prevail there.

[W+T]

I'm a CCer and take a photo of my mooring with my iPhone that provides a date and gps data to confirm location. It also provides a handy reminder of all my moorings.

 

 

no thats a good idea, as you can have date and time on the pics you get, savs alot of hassle i bet.

[spadefoot]

I've seen the CRT spotters with their hand-held devices, but I don't know very much at all about how their system works. I had assumed that as well as inputting the boat registration number, the spotter would also input the direction the boat was facing when spotted. Obviously is a boat was spotted in the same or similar place 15 days apart, but facing in a different direction on both occasions, then it will have moved in between. Does anyone know if it does work like this?

I wouldn't have thought that they much care which way your boat is facing. I'll often turn my boat somewhere convenient just to get the sun on the right side or to get the side-hatch on the water-side.

I reckon that people coming up against this kind of problem are either not moving enough or are moving too far too quickly.

[junior]

I wonder if our 2 tv stars have been picked up by the enforcers after all they do go through Banbury and return on a regular basis or would common sense prevail there.

Isn't that legitimate if they have a home mooring, which they do.

[Southern Star]

Isn't that legitimate if they have a home mooring, which they do.

I've wondered this. I moor at Brinklow Marina, and over the Winter I've been spending weekends and the odd week on the boat, and there were four weekends on a row where I moored at Newbold-on-Avon. Obviously, I'd been back to the marina, gone home (175 miles) and put in a full week at work in between. I wonder though if I had been spotted in the same location every weekend for a month if this could cause problems. It hasn't but I suppose it could be theoretically possible?

[DHutch]

Isn't that legitimate if they have a home mooring, which they do.

As I understand it, when away from the mooring, boats with a home mooring are to comply with the same rules as a boat without a mooring.

 

The published info is not overly clear, and initial questioning got some woolly answers. but when pushed it appears this is the case which is as I have always been told.

 

 

Daniel

[Higgs]

I've wondered this. I moor at Brinklow Marina, and over the Winter I've been spending weekends and the odd week on the boat, and there were four weekends on a row where I moored at Newbold-on-Avon. Obviously, I'd been back to the marina, gone home (175 miles) and put in a full week at work in between. I wonder though if I had been spotted in the same location every weekend for a month if this could cause problems. It hasn't but I suppose it could be theoretically possible?

 

 

It would become a problem, if the spotters were only around at the weekends and wrongly suspected you of never returning to the marina.

[David Schweizer]

As I understand it, when away from the mooring, boats with a home mooring are to comply with the same rules as a boat without a mooring.

 

The published info is not overly clear, and initial questioning got some woolly answers. but when pushed it appears this is the case which is as I have always been told.

 

 

Daniel

 

I am not certain that is correct. As far as I can tell the 1995 Wateways Act requirement to use a boat for bona fide for navigation and move it every 14 days only applies to boats without a home mooring.

[DHutch]

It would become a problem, if the spotters were only around at the weekends and wrongly suspected you of never returning to the marina.

I have also in the past at the end of a run out, done a whole days boating, turned, and done a whole days boating back to moor within about 3-4miles. Just the way the out and back of a year long trip worked. But unless they clocked me on Saturday night it would look like in four weeks I have moved about as many miles and could have turned anywhere near by.

 

I am not certain that is correct. As far as I can tell the 1995 Wateways Act requirement to use a boat for bona fide for navigation and move it every 14 days only applies to boats without a home mooring.

Cant say I have read it, nor looked at what would stand up in court, but I was trying to push for what the rules where on being away from your mooring for a few months, and while getting anything at all was like pulling teeth out of a politician, the best I got what that in round figures the expectation was the same.

 

I am not going to question it too hard, rather carry on doing what we have always done, being very reasonable, and as long as that continues happy days. If it doest, I shall re-visit!

 

Daniel

[Higgs]

I have also in the past at the end of a run out, done a whole days boating, turned, and done a whole days boating back to moor within about 3-4miles. Just the way the out and back of a year long trip worked. But unless they clocked me on Saturday night it would look like in four weeks I have moved about as many miles and could have turned anywhere near by.

Cant say I have read it, nor looked at what would stand up in court, but I was trying to push for what the rules where on being away from your mooring for a few months, and while getting anything at all was like pulling teeth out of a politician, the best I got what that in round figures the expectation was the same.

 

I am not going to question it too hard, rather carry on doing what we have always done, being very reasonable, and as long as that continues happy days. If it doest, I shall re-visit!

 

Daniel

 

 

By the 'T&C's', or maybe I've read it somewhere else, it seems to say that home moorers should act as if they where CC'ing, if they have no intention of returning to the mooring, over an extended period, out on the canal. They would like to see home moorers returning to the mooring, when the boat is out doing local short period boating and mooring, if they are not to look like CC'ers bridge hopping, by continually appearing out on the canal in the local area (small area), not returning to the marina to keep starting the clock.

[Arthur Marshall]

I've wondered this. I moor at Brinklow Marina, and over the Winter I've been spending weekends and the odd week on the boat, and there were four weekends on a row where I moored at Newbold-on-Avon. Obviously, I'd been back to the marina, gone home (175 miles) and put in a full week at work in between. I wonder though if I had been spotted in the same location every weekend for a month if this could cause problems. It hasn't but I suppose it could be theoretically possible?

No, because if you've got a home mooring, the distance/cruising rules get reset every time you go back to the mooring.

 

 

By the 'T&C's', or maybe I've read it somewhere else, it seems to say that home moorers should act as if they where CC'ing, if they have no intention of returning to the mooring, over an extended period, out on the canal.

There's no change there, as the 14 day rule applied to us with moorings just as it does to anyone else.

[Higgs]

No, because if you've got a home mooring, the distance/cruising rules get reset every time you go back to the mooring.

There's no change there, as the 14 day rule applied to us with moorings just as it does to anyone else.

 

As far a Southern Star's question is concerned, the only problem would be, when he isn't spotted returning. Where sightings of his boat were too infrequent, as to suggest he hadn't returned. I can't see how they could be geared up to spot this level activity of marina moorers to provide accurate data logging.

 

And, true, the 14 day rule and any of the other time limited periods of mooring apply to all and always have done. What is different is the 'requirement' to start a 'clock', to somehow be seen and recorded returning to a marina.

Edited June 25, 2015 by Higgs

[eggpie]

Yes, it's the first time I've had one of these messages (but its a valid question), which is why I'm unsure how to respond. As everyone has said, I can point out their error, with documentation, and it does indeed say "let us know if you disagree". I'll be disagreeing in the morning.

 

However, I'm still trying to establish how far one would have to move to be out of the "general area" and not trigger that warning in the first place. I'd expect someone regularly shuffling between the two points to be targeted, but I'm surprised to be warned for what seems to be merely not moving far enough for them on this one occasion.

[matty40s]

The big problem with CRT data is that generally outside honeypots, there is NO weekend and bank holiday data collection, hence my 3 day trip to Stoke Bruerne at New Year and subsequent 7 day stay at Bugbrooke were not recorded.

Edited June 25, 2015 by matty40s

[Higgs]

Yes, it's the first time I've had one of these messages (but its a valid question), which is why I'm unsure how to respond. As everyone has said, I can point out their error, with documentation, and it does indeed say "let us know if you disagree". I'll be disagreeing in the morning.

 

However, I'm still trying to establish how far one would have to move to be out of the "general area" and not trigger that warning in the first place. I'd expect someone regularly shuffling between the two points to be targeted, but I'm surprised to be warned for what seems to be merely not moving far enough for them on this one occasion.

 

 

This expression - "general area", it's not very helpful. If your cruising pattern has been deemed too little, it is important they be tackled on the quantity of data that they have. And, if you can establish a greater distance travelled, would that have been acceptable to them as "out of the general area" ? Otherwise, by your understanding and by their inaccurate data, confusion will continue. If it is one occasion that you might have ended up on their radar, this is hardly a pattern and looks like harassment.

[Tony Dunkley]

I've just received this nugget from CRT:

 

"Weve been looking at our sighting records and they suggest that your boat XXXXXX has been moored in the same general area for more than 14 days."

 

For context, imagine a journey of ABCD (actually much longer). Having travelled to D, the boat turns round and returns to somewhere fairly near C, but definitively not C. Lets call it C2.

 

I'm assuming that the spotters have missed the trip to D (definitely far enough), and I'd have accepted the warning if I'd overstayed at C (which the message suggests they accept I haven't done), so this must mean that they think C and C2 are too near each other.

 

How big is a "general area". Is it bigger than a neighbourhood or a place? Is there a map? If its okay to warn boaters who moor too near previously visited spots, how exactly should one make a return journey these days?

 

I take the view that this sort of tripe should be returned with a brief note indicating that you don't expect any more of it to be sent, and that it will be ignored if they do send any more. You could also point out that they are a navigation authority charged with maintenance and repair, and not an organization created and financed for the purpose of boat spotting and surveillance of individuals and their boats.

Any signs or indications from recipients that irrelevant and pointless enquiries such as this will be given any attention or credence will only encourage more of it.

[NilesMI]

When you take out your licence you accept that your boat must not stay in the same place for longer than 14 days.

 

I would ventre to suggest that because their sighting records are patchy and don't/can't detect all boat movements they resort to the legally meaningless and deliberately vague term; "general area", in order to fire a waring shot towards you on the off chance that you have been overstaying at the same place.

 

I wouldn't waste time trying to ascertain from CRT what they mean by "general area". Instead I would be asking them to provide you with all the sighting records of XXXXXX so that you can check them against your actual movements. Only then will you have a true idea about what their records might "suggest".

[Tony Dunkley]

When you take out your licence you accept that your boat must not stay in the same place for longer than 14 days.

 

I would ventre to suggest that because their sighting records are patchy and don't/can't detect all boat movements they resort to the legally meaningless and deliberately vague term; "general area", in order to fire a waring shot towards you on the off chance that you have been overstaying at the same place.

 

I wouldn't waste time trying to ascertain from CRT what they mean by "general area". Instead I would be asking them to provide you with all the sighting records of XXXXXX so that you can check them against your actual movements. Only then will you have a true idea about what their records might "suggest".

 

Or, if you really feel that eggpie should respond, he could ask them to send the next one on softer paper.