CANAL & RIVER TRUST OUTLINES POLICY FOR BOATERS WITHOUT A HOME MOORING

[jenlyn]

Me too.

I don't mind waiting.

[Arthur Marshall]

Obviously why I'm asking :-)

OK, sorry if I sounded narky. Last year on a 40 ft boat I paid licence of £669 and mooring fees for the year before (can't find last year's figures) to CRT of £521. That's with the prompt payment discount. Then I paid a bit to the farmer for a mooring with no facilities except somewhere to park the car and have it nibbled by sheep while I'm away. I'm not grumbling, it suits me. So did CCing, when I could do that.

[jenlyn]

OK, sorry if I sounded narky. Last year on a 40 ft boat I paid licence of £669 and mooring fees for the year before (can't find last year's figures) to CRT of £521. That's with the prompt payment discount. Then I paid a bit to the farmer for a mooring with no facilities except somewhere to park the car and have it nibbled by sheep while I'm away. I'm not grumbling, it suits me. So did CCing, when I could do that.

Thankyou, much appreciated.

[Paul C]

I don't mind waiting.

 

I'm going back to work for evening shift soon, and I'm working all day tomorrow too, just to let you know you might be waiting a while but I'll dig out the proper figures if you really need them.

[Tony Dunkley]

No depends when they were opened some were built before NAA was introduced

 

I think that Marinas on river navigations are also excluded.

[jenlyn]

I'm going back to work for evening shift soon, and I'm working all day tomorrow too, just to let you know you might be waiting a while but I'll dig out the proper figures if you really need them.

Ok, no problem, thankyou. Much appreciated.

[GoodGurl]

**mod cap off**

Are we talking about home moorers who,

1. Moor in a backwater and dont buy a license.

2.Moor on a EOG or farmers field.

3. In a marina with services.

4. On a offside mooring with or without services.

because from where i am standing there is one hell of a difference in what CRT get out of the above.

[GUMPY]

**mod cap off**

Are we talking about home moorers who,

1. Moor in a backwater and dont buy a license.

2.Moor on a EOG or farmers field.

3. In a marina with services.

4. On a offside mooring with or without services.

because from where i am standing there is one hell of a difference in what CRT get out of the above.

CRT income from above.

1. Nothing

2. 50% of CRT nearest online mooring rate plus licence

3. 9% of agreed mooring fee if subject to NAA plus licence

4. If CRT owned then 100% if not 50% of local online mooring rate plus licence.

[GoodGurl]

CRT income from above.

1. Nothing

2. 50% of CRT nearest online mooring rate plus licence

3. 9% of agreed mooring fee if subject to NAA plus licence

4. If CRT owned then 100% if not 50% of local online mooring rate plus licence.

**mod cap off**

So CC'rs who take a winter mooring actually pay more or equal amounts to CRT in some cases.

[Paul C]

CCers who take a winter mooring, don't need to CC whilst they have the winter mooring, since it is classed as a home mooring. Its the same as if a CCer took a short term mooring in a marina. Note I said winter mooring, it could apply to any paid-for mooring less than a year; and applies equally to those on a private mooring or a CRT-provided one.

 

"CCer with a winter mooring" is a contradiction, but an understandable shorterning of "boater who was a CCer prior to taking up a short term winter mooring and is expected to resume being a CCer once that short term mooring expires".

**mod cap off**

So CC'rs who take a winter mooring actually pay more or equal amounts to CRT in some cases.

 

One could say that certain winter moorings are poor value for money.

[GUMPY]

**mod cap off**

So CC'rs who take a winter mooring actually pay more or equal amounts to CRT in some cases.

Compared to those in marinas yes, be it under NAA or otherwise.

Type 1 is technically not CRT waters so should be discounted.

I'm not sure how WM rates compare to local mooring rates.

 

Anyway, the problem is not with those without a home mooring that take a WM, nor is it with those that satisfy CRT that they cruise within the law. Its with those that don't do either.

[jenlyn]

CCers who take a winter mooring, don't need to CC whilst they have the winter mooring, since it is classed as a home mooring. Its the same as if a CCer took a short term mooring in a marina. Note I said winter mooring, it could apply to any paid-for mooring less than a year; and applies equally to those on a private mooring or a CRT-provided one.

 

"CCer with a winter mooring" is a contradiction, but an understandable shorterning of "boater who was a CCer prior to taking up a short term winter mooring and is expected to resume being a CCer once that short term mooring expires".

 

 

One could say that certain winter moorings are poor value for money.

Lol. The fact is, some CCer's pay more towards CRT's coffers than a few of you would have us believe.

Your attempt to twist and turn to get out of that is quite funny, but a rather expected one.

[GoodGurl]

CCers who take a winter mooring, don't need to CC whilst they have the winter mooring, since it is classed as a home mooring. Its the same as if a CCer took a short term mooring in a marina. Note I said winter mooring, it could apply to any paid-for mooring less than a year; and applies equally to those on a private mooring or a CRT-provided one.

 

"CCer with a winter mooring" is a contradiction, but an understandable shorterning of "boater who was a CCer prior to taking up a short term winter mooring and is expected to resume being a CCer once that short term mooring expires".

 

One could say that certain winter moorings are poor value for money.

**mod cap off**

A CC'r with a winter mooring is still CC'r because they don't have to stay in one place for the duration of the permit, unlike a home moorer who has a permanent mooring place, so no you are wrong, so CC'rs are NOT classed as having a home mooring.

[Tony Dunkley]

**mod cap off**

A CC'r with a winter mooring is still CC'r because they don't have to stay in one place for the duration of the permit, unlike a home moorer who has a permanent mooring place, so no you are wrong, so CC'rs are NOT classed as having a home mooring.

 

Nobody has to stay in one place, whatever type of mooring they do or don't have. C&RT may well come up with some rule along those lines in the foreseeable future, but they haven't done so yet. The main objective at present seems to be to keep everyone constantly on the move, HM'ers included when away from their mooring.

Edited February 21, 2015 by Tony Dunkley

[Tuscan]

**mod cap off**

A CC'r with a winter mooring is still CC'r because they don't have to stay in one place for the duration of the permit, unlike a home moorer who has a permanent mooring place, so no you are wrong, so CC'rs are NOT classed as having a home mooring.

This is the nub , so in return for money , you are saying that you don't have to cruise any specific distance or follow the 14 day rule yet you don't have a home mooring. Sounds like CRT are trying to sell a third type of license. Can imagine a judge at sometime asking CRT why they did not just offer this new license/permit to those that might want one on a year round basis. This thought must be exercising their legal department I imagine.

[tree monkey]

I think it's a hugely corrosive argument to have - who pays most. It's not even slightly productive and can never achieve anything other than animosity and division along arbitrary and spurious lines. I say this from the comfort of my home mooring.

seconded

[Wanderer Vagabond]

**mod cap off**

A CC'r with a winter mooring is still CC'r because they don't have to stay in one place for the duration of the permit, unlike a home moorer who has a permanent mooring place, so no you are wrong, so CC'rs are NOT classed as having a home mooring.

They are not classed as having a home mooring (they'd need to change their licence to do that, 007 number and all that) but they are treated as having a home mooring by CRT since they do not have to move (I'm oddly in agreement with Mr Dunkley on this one, no-one has to stay in one place for the duration of either a permit or a mooring agreement).

 

Continuous Cruising is what you do, a boat without a home mooring is what your are, to conflate the two creates confusion. Generally I continuous cruise but if I want to leave the boat for a few weeks to do other stuff I'll stick it in a marina, that would mean that I am no longer Continuous Cruising (how can I continuously cruise when I'm not even on the boat?). When I come back to the boat and sail off towards the horizon I'm once again continuously cruising. It is not something like being English that you are born with and have to stick to, you can easily flip between continuous cruising and mooring.

Edited February 21, 2015 by Wanderer Vagabond

[jenlyn]

They are not classed as having a home mooring (they'd need to change their licence to do that, 007 number and all that) but they are treated as having a home mooring by CRT since they do not have to move (I'm oddly in agreement with Mr Dunkley on this one, no-one has to stay in one place for the duration of either a permit or a mooring agreement).

 

Continuous Cruising is what you do, a boat without a home mooring is what your are, to conflate the two creates confusion. Generally I continuous cruise but if I want to leave the boat for a few weeks to do other stuff I'll stick it in a marina, that would mean that I am no longer Continuous Cruising (how can I continuously cruise when I'm not even on the boat?). When I come back to the boat and sail off towards the horizon I'm once again continuously cruising. It is not something like being English that you are born with and have to stick to, you can easily flip between continuous cruising and mooring.

Slight problem. Even though you have left your boat in the marina for a few days, your still declared as a ccer, unless of course you register as a boat with a home mooring each time you decide to moor in there.

[GoodGurl]

This is the nub , so in return for money , you are saying that you don't have to cruise any specific distance or follow the 14 day rule yet you don't have a home mooring. Sounds like CRT are trying to sell a third type of license. Can imagine a judge at sometime asking CRT why they did not just offer this new license/permit to those that might want one on a year round basis. This thought must be exercising their legal department I imagine.

**mod cap off**

If you had read the previous posts i was referring to a winter mooring permit. people who have winter permits do not have to move after 14 days, they can stay in the same place for 5 months if they so wish.1st nov - 1st april being the day you have to move.

[Wanderer Vagabond]

Slight problem. Even though you have left your boat in the marina for a few days, your still declared as a ccer, unless of course you register as a boat with a home mooring each time you decide to moor in there.

Why is that a problem?? If I had bought a boat (under the previous system) from someone who continuously cruised (007 number) but then decided I wanted to take a home mooring are you saying that the boat should have been re-licenced? Even more bizarrely what enforcement would CRT be doing on a wrongly declared boat? "You've registered your boat as having no home mooring but now we hear that you have got one so we wont renew your licence for next year unless you agree to continuously cruise??"

 

In addition you have done exactly what I said confuses the situation, you have conflated Continuous Cruising (which is what I do) with having a boat without a home mooring (which is what it is). I have officially declared to no-one that I'm a continuous cruiser but I have officially declared to CRT that I do not have a home mooring, see the difference????

Edited February 21, 2015 by Wanderer Vagabond

[Tony Dunkley]

Why is that a problem?? If I had bought a boat (under the previous system) from someone who continuously cruised (007 number) but then decided I wanted to take a home mooring are you saying that the boat should have been re-licenced? Even more bizarrely what enforcement would CRT be doing on a wrongly declared boat? "You've registered your boat as having no home mooring but now we hear that you have got one so we wont renew your licence for next year unless you agree to continuously cruise??"

 

 

Strange as seems there is an instance, on record, of C&RT doing that. It accompanied a suggestion (put in writing twice) that an unlicensed boat should be used for a time for CC'ing in order to demonstrate continuing good intentions. It seemed strange at the time, but it looks even more weird now alongside the current threats not to renew the Licences of CC'ers who haven't moved enough unless they get a mooring. Of course, it must not be forgotten that boats with a home mooring will in future be required to move about like a CC'er whilst away from it under the amended Licence T & C's.

As for your question about what Enforcement C&RT would be doing, in the instance described above they sought a Court Order and Injunctions to remove and subsequently bar the boat (in the hands of it's owner) from every waterway under their control.

Edited February 22, 2015 by Tony Dunkley

[Paul C]

**mod cap off**

A CC'r with a winter mooring is still CC'r because they don't have to stay in one place for the duration of the permit, unlike a home moorer who has a permanent mooring place, so no you are wrong, so CC'rs are NOT classed as having a home mooring.

 

"Boater without a home mooring with a winter mooring"?

[GoodGurl]

 

"Boater without a home mooring with a winter mooring"?

yes that's right, CC'rs are allowed you know.

[Paul C]

I've found out some of the figures but not all. With the revelation that boaters without a home mooring but with a mooring are still boaters without a home mooring, I guess for completeness it is worth finding out the income from winter moorings too. Remind me, how many winter moorings were taken up this winter, and how much is the average cost of one?

 

Anyway:

 

Directly-managed moorings £5m

income from BWML £6.6m

trade licences, connection and network access agreements £5m

(I can't find a further split of this to split out NAA income)

 

Not yet found income from EOG moorings, or figures on winter moorings

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/library/6699.pdf

 

 

 

EDITED TO ADD: EOG mooring fees/revenue was the subject of a FOI request, which was refused. So I don't think I'm going to be able to find specific info on this income stream.

Edited February 22, 2015 by Paul C

[Paul C]

Reference here: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/151353/response/410965/attach/3/0289%20001.pdf