24v genny, which engine?

[SamKingfisher]

Ok, so as well as a boat I also have a barn, which I have planning permission to turn into a house. I can't afford the 34,000 that it would cost to connect to the mains, so I am going off grid.

 

I will have 2kw solar, a 1kw wind turbine and a 1000ah battery bank, made up from 2v cells. But I need a back up generator.

 

I am ideally looking for a quiet, electric start, water cooled engine of between 2 and 10hp (I suppose I'd consider bigger) which I can spin a 50-120amp 24v alternator with.

 

I mean ideally I'd want a Lister single D but the hand start and fiddling about puts Ellie off as much as it attracts me!

 

So what would you recommend, and does anybody have anything suitable?

 

I would be using a controller on the alternator, probably.

 

Also, how easy is it to get a 24v alternator to interact with said engine?

 

Thanks.

[Arthur Brown]

Remember that 24v at 120A is already 2.880KW at 100% efficiency. so the engine shaft speed must turn the alternator fast enough for the engine to offer that power and the alternator to give out the power put onto it's shaft, -this is never 100% effecient, so to turn your generator you would need a continuous running power of say 6 KW which needs about 10 HP at running shaft speed.

 

Oh! Did I mention the belt you would need? You will need to size a drive for 10hp too, this MAY come from a big poly vee belt or a set of big Vee belts, but any attempt to use "just a fan belt" will end up smelling of cooked rubber rather quickly (seconds not minutes!).

 

Due to the engineering necessities of a DIY system, I'd suggest that you look for a second user Honda 6+ KVA generator and a suitable charger,- it's a second source of 240VAC too in case you need more AC than your inverter wants to provide.

[Arthur Brown]

PS

Once you burn fuel do see whether any of the engine's waste heat can be utilised, Cool the block and exhaust with water/antifreeze and use this heat to warm a room or heat the water, Probably half of the fuel comes out as waste heat which could be dumped into the wind or driven into the residence.

[SamKingfisher]

Yep, I'm thinking hot water from waste heat. I'm not keen on all the losses involved in turning DC into AC into DC into AC which is what would be happening with an inverter generator powering say the washing machine. I'm going to keep it simple and not allow any source of 240v other than the inverter.

I only need it to supply 1kw max, anything more than that is nice but not essential. I think that's less than 50 amps at 24v

Also, wouldn't the belt supplied to fit a bus alternator be able to turn it ok without disintegrating?

 

Ps must be diesel cos of cheap red diesel.

[kris88]

If it's electric start how would you charge the stater battery ? Spin two alternators 12v & 24v

Small engines this size with 24v starters are a rare beast!

Regards kris

[EEng]

Just out of interest, how far are you from the DNO electric ?

 

We had a quote a while back from the local DNO office in Norfolk for £23K for a supply, we arranged a visit rom the DNO's area engineer and had a discussion (in real english) as to the best way to do the supply and after a bit of paper work we then got a real quote for £1200 (Plus VAT).

 

Sometimes if the DNO don't send an Engineer out to assess then the office just put in a stupid price based on the information they have on paper which sometimes isn't correct.

[Arthur Brown]

Try to balance the solar input with your electricity needs. Another 2KW of solar would be a better investment IMO, if you are really open and rural then more wind generation could help.

 

Remember that an emergency generator needs running regularly to ensure it will run on demand.

[Arthur Brown]

50a generated shared between the charging and other running consumption will not even touch the sides of a 1000AH battery bank, I'd suggest that you need 250A to effect significant charging in an emergency.

 

You need to be very certain that the washing machine you chose will run off an inverter some will some simply will NOT

[rogeriko]

I install Solar panels and Wind turbines for a living I can steer you in the right direction. Where abouts in the country is your barn?

 

My old house in Greece.

 

Edited February 1, 2015 by rogeriko

[SamKingfisher]

If it's electric start how would you charge the stater battery ? Spin two alternators 12v & 24v

Small engines this size with 24v starters are a rare beast!

Regards kris

I'd charge the starter with 80w solar.

50a generated shared between the charging and other running consumption will not even touch the sides of a 1000AH battery bank, I'd suggest that you need 250A to effect significant charging in an emergency.

 

You need to be very certain that the washing machine you chose will run off an inverter some will some simply will NOT

As long as I put back what I take out I don't see the problem.

 

The point about not doubling the solar is that some weeks are just useless for solar. I have lived with solar on the boat for 3 years, I know how it is. I have an emergency kipor for when there is no sun.

 

I thought a psw inverter will power most washing machines? Certainly the zanussi I have on the boat is fine.

 

Also I shouldn't have used the word emergency. I mean cloudy windless days in winter.

 

At the moment I have 330ah of batteries and I never see more than 20a going in from my beast of a kubota engine. I am nice to my batteries and don't use much power.

 

The house will have AA fridge and freezer, laptop, led lighting, low power CH pump. Occasional washing machine. That will be about it. The battery bank is overkill and more about long life than capacity.

I install Solar panels and Wind turbines for a living I can steer you in the right direction. Where abouts in the country is your barn?

 

My old house in Greece.

 

Thanks but I think I'm sorted with the alt tech. The barn is in Yorkshire. Sadly I can't get away with such large turbines as you have in Greece.

 

Also, returning to the washing machine, I tell you what, if a washing machine is too sensitive to run off a psw inverter, it ain't going to run on some dirty 240v site genny!

Just out of interest, how far are you from the DNO electric ?

 

We had a quote a while back from the local DNO office in Norfolk for £23K for a supply, we arranged a visit rom the DNO's area engineer and had a discussion (in real english) as to the best way to do the supply and after a bit of paper work we then got a real quote for £1200 (Plus VAT).

 

Sometimes if the DNO don't send an Engineer out to assess then the office just put in a stupid price based on the information they have on paper which sometimes isn't correct.

I'm 100m at least from a high voltage line. 1,200 wouldn't even start to pay for the transformer. Edited February 1, 2015 by SamKingfisher

[by'eck]

Ok, so as well as a boat I also have a barn, which I have planning permission to turn into a house. I can't afford the 34,000 that it would cost to connect to the mains, so I am going off grid.

I will have 2kw solar, a 1kw wind turbine and a 1000ah battery bank, made up from 2v cells. But I need a back up generator.

I am ideally looking for a quiet, electric start, water cooled engine of between 2 and 10hp (I suppose I'd consider bigger) which I can spin a 50-120amp 24v alternator with.

I mean ideally I'd want a Lister single D but the hand start and fiddling about puts Ellie off as much as it attracts me!

So what would you recommend, and does anybody have anything suitable?

I would be using a controller on the alternator, probably.

Also, how easy is it to get a 24v alternator to interact with said engine?

Thanks.

Look out for Lister CS single (8/1) with Startomatic genny (alternator). They come up on eBay from time to time.

[OldGoat]

There are loads of 'silenced' air cooled diesel gennys on eBay (and direct) - round about £1500 to £2000. A proper continuous duty water cooled genset would cost for £4k upwards.

 

Frightened by threats of 'brown-outs' this winter I bought a Lister SR2 10KVA genset via eBay. £700 after a haggle.

Noise? - Pardon - speak up

Smoke? - only when starting, but the black cloud hangs around for ages.

 

There is a thread around where a chap put it in a shed, insulated it and it's quiet as a mouse.

 

Off the top - I'd be inclined to build a proper engine room for (not into) your house and install a non cocooned genset into it. You'll need to run the genny most days in the winter - so it's not really a standby option.

[SamKingfisher]

Like 151570120007 except that's not working. Thanks.

There are loads of 'silenced' air cooled diesel gennys on eBay (and direct) - round about £1500 to £2000. A proper continuous duty water cooled genset would cost for £4k upwards.

 

Frightened by threats of 'brown-outs' this winter I bought a Lister SR2 10KVA genset via eBay. £700 after a haggle.

Noise? - Pardon - speak up

Smoke? - only when starting, but the black cloud hangs around for ages.

 

There is a thread around where a chap put it in a shed, insulated it and it's quiet as a mouse.

 

Off the top - I'd be inclined to build a proper engine room for (not into) your house and install a non cocooned genset into it. You'll need to run the genny most days in the winter - so it's not really a standby option.

Absolutely will be in it's own house!

 

And you say that about most days, but you haven't been up there. It is tree-bendingly windy!

[OldGoat]

Like 151570120007 except that's not working. Thanks.

 

Absolutely will be in it's own house!

 

And you say that about most days, but you haven't been up there. It is tree-bendingly windy!

 

 

Here's a Lister in a quiet shed / Lister silenced by a quietened shed....

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2682AwYJ7w

 

I was quite impressed...

 

FWIW Although electric start I can start my SR2 set by hand and IIRC SWMBO can just about start it too.

I have an ST1 that I just couldn't start by hand. It was so noisy that I don't use it any more!

[SamKingfisher]

I love the shed engine. I think I want a CS though I doubt I'd get much hot water from it. Stuff the electric start nonsense.

I don't see a big problem with fabricating a bracket for an alternator, and seems you can use the flywheel to run the belt over.

[rogeriko]

Heres a guy charging batteries and heating his house from a lister cs http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,741.0.html

[Neil Smith]

You say it is very windy up there but you also say you cant put up decent size wind turbines so the wind wont help much, cant you hire a mini digger and run your own duct with cable and just get the lecky company to do the connections, that is what we do when we build new houses.

 

Neil

[EEng]

I'd charge the starter with 80w solar.

As long as I put back what I take out I don't see the problem.

 

The point about not doubling the solar is that some weeks are just useless for solar. I have lived with solar on the boat for 3 years, I know how it is. I have an emergency kipor for when there is no sun.

 

I thought a psw inverter will power most washing machines? Certainly the zanussi I have on the boat is fine.

 

Also I shouldn't have used the word emergency. I mean cloudy windless days in winter.

 

At the moment I have 330ah of batteries and I never see more than 20a going in from my beast of a kubota engine. I am nice to my batteries and don't use much power.

 

The house will have AA fridge and freezer, laptop, led lighting, low power CH pump. Occasional washing machine. That will be about it. The battery bank is overkill and more about long life than capacity.

Thanks but I think I'm sorted with the alt tech. The barn is in Yorkshire. Sadly I can't get away with such large turbines as you have in Greece.

 

Also, returning to the washing machine, I tell you what, if a washing machine is too sensitive to run off a psw inverter, it ain't going to run on some dirty 240v site genny!

I'm 100m at least from a high voltage line. 1,200 wouldn't even start to pay for the transformer.

 

And apart from the HV there are no other LV supplies in the near vicinity ? Overheads ? Undergrounds ?

[SamKingfisher]

No other LV anywhere near. Anyway, the transformer up at the farm (at least half a mile) is now supplying 5 properties and struggling as it is.

 

And as far as the wind goes, I live on a boat at the moment. The thought of a fairly constant 100-1000w of extra power is like 8 years of Christmas rolled into one. The house will be roughly the same size as 14*60 widebeam, we're not talking mansion tax here.

[billh]

Ok, so as well as a boat I also have a barn, which I have planning permission to turn into a house. I can't afford the 34,000 that it would cost to connect to the mains, so I am going off grid.

 

I will have 2kw solar, a 1kw wind turbine and a 1000ah battery bank, made up from 2v cells. But I need a back up generator.

 

I am ideally looking for a quiet, electric start, water cooled engine of between 2 and 10hp (I suppose I'd consider bigger) which I can spin a 50-120amp 24v alternator with.

 

I mean ideally I'd want a Lister single D but the hand start and fiddling about puts Ellie off as much as it attracts me!

 

So what would you recommend, and does anybody have anything suitable?

 

I would be using a controller on the alternator, probably.

 

Also, how easy is it to get a 24v alternator to interact with said engine?

 

Thanks.

Consider using a 24v dynamo rather than an alternator. The dynamo can be used to start a moderate diesel with the right control gear. As soon as the engine is up to speed it starts to generate and charge the starter batteries. One set up we had years ago with this idea had a Fowler 4hp diesel belted to a Lancaster bomber generator (24v 100a). the v-belt ran on the rim of the engine flywheel with no groove, the pulley ratio was about 10:1 . The engine was water cooled so opportunity for heat recovery there, though we didn't do that. It all worked rather well for a cobbled together system. The engine also powered a saw bench via a pulley on the crankshaft!

[kris88]

Go for the CS Sam and as been suggested get one with a dyna start. Then you'll have electric start and Ellie will be able to use it.

Regards kris

[rogeriko]

Here is a picture of a Chinese diesel engine that I bought and coupled it to an old alternator of a coach. 120A at 24v, diesel was doing about 2500 RPM.

 

[SamKingfisher]

Sweet. Good ideas there. How noisy was that Chinese diesel, and how easy was it to make it interact with the alternator? If you were to sell it, how much would you want for it? As a thought experiment if nothing else.

[Timleech]

Sweet. Good ideas there. How noisy was that Chinese diesel, and how easy was it to make it interact with the alternator? If you were to sell it, how much would you want for it? As a thought experiment if nothing else.

 

That looks like a copy of a Yanmar, the Yanmars are pretty loud!

 

Tim

[bargemast]

My Chinese welding generator is equipped with one of these Yanmar copy engines, if it wouldn't have been fitted in a soundproof box it would be too noisy to work with if there are neigbours less than 50m away from the machine.

 

Apart from the noise, I'm quite happy with it, and it does the job it was made for.

 

Peter.