Council Tax ?

[floatsyourboat]

My Mrs has rung the council today to update the records so to speak and she found them to be very unhelpful to the extent the phone was left on hold indefinitely.

How do you go about closing the relationship with the council tax when moving aboard full time and CCing?

They won't accept a care of address for us!

Thanks.

[TaffyRon]

Yep, its like breaking up with a clingy girlfriend

[Geordie.narrowboat]

Simple, recorded delivery notifying the local authority that you have sold/terminated lease on the property on x date and thus no longer liable for council tax. Cancel you DD if you pay monthly. So long as you have given notice and followed the legitimate requirements your obligations are concluded. In the letter provide a correspondence address.

[TaffyRon]

Some bedsits have council tax included in the price, just send them a letter, no smugness although tempting!

Also bear in mind that to moor in some marinas especially whixhall they want proof that you are paying council tax elsewhere before they let you in

[Alan de Enfield]

Some bedsits have council tax included in the price, just send them a letter, no smugness although tempting!

Also bear in mind that to moor in some marinas especially whixhall they want proof that you are paying council tax elsewhere before they let you in

 

That is actually a BWML requirement.

BWML used to have many categories of moorings which were rationalised down to two last year.

 

Residential - you can liveaboard and pay council tax.

Leisure - you can liveaboard* but dont pay council tax as long as you can prove you pay council tax on a property somewhere.

 

* From memory the T*Cs say that BWML expect heavy usage with no limit to the amount of nights sent aboard,

 

I dont think you are asked to prove the payment of council tax elsewhere "before you are let in", I think you would be asked for it if it became apparent that you were on board continuously for many months and trying to 'get away' with living on a leisure mooring.

 

We used to be in Whixhall - very nice marina.

[floatsyourboat]

Simple, recorded delivery notifying the local authority that you have sold/terminated lease on the property on x date and thus no longer liable for council tax. Cancel you DD if you pay monthly. So long as you have given notice and followed the legitimate requirements your obligations are concluded. In the letter provide a correspondence address.

Is it acceptable to use a boat yard for a co address?

Do I have to say I have moved onto a boat?

Thanks.

[TaffyRon]

Who wants post anyway? Let alone council tax which you get nothing, I pick more litter up than the council do

[David Mack]

Is it acceptable to use a boat yard for a co address?

Do I have to say I have moved onto a boat?

Thanks.

1. Yes as long as the boatyard allows their address to be used for this purpose. Some don't.

 

2. If you moving out of their area I can't see why you have to tell them anything about where you are going and what you are doing. But it would be prudent to leave a forwarding address, which could be you new address, a friend or relative or an accommodation address/mail forwarding service.

[philjman]

1. Yes as long as the boatyard allows their address to be used for this purpose. Some don't.

 

2. If you moving out of their area I can't see why you have to tell them anything about where you are going and what you are doing. But it would be prudent to leave a forwarding address, which could be you new address, a friend or relative or an accommodation address/mail forwarding service.

 

1. I live aboard at a marina which accepts residential boats and there is a mailbox for each residential boat which my mail is delivered to daily. Also the marina office will sign for parcel deliveries and hold them for me until I can collect them.

 

2. As for council tax, when I moved (couple of years ago now) I informed my previous council that I was moving away and asked them to stop the council tax liability from the date of the move which they did no problem. As it is a residential mooring I have had to inform the council (where I'm moored) that I'm liable for council tax so I do still pay council tax (the lowest band). On the plus side it does mean that I have some additional proof of address (apart from bank statements) as I have no utility bills to prove address.

 

Phil

Edited November 11, 2014 by philjman

[Alan de Enfield]

 

2. As for council tax, when I moved (couple of years ago now) I informed my previous council that I was moving away and asked them to stop the council tax liability from the date of the move which they did no problem. As it is a residential mooring I have had to inform the council (where I'm moored) that I'm liable for council tax so I do still pay council tax (the lowest band). On the plus side it does mean that I have some additional proof of address (apart from bank statements) as I have no utility bills to prove address.

 

Phil

 

Do you pay the Council tax directly to the Local Authority or to the Marina (either as 'council tax' or as part of your mooring fee) ?

 

Does the Marina guarantee your mooring position, or is there something in the small print that says they reserve the right to move you ?

 

If you are paying Band A council tax, it could be that you are overpaying by a considerable amount depending on your answers to the above questions.

[b0atman]

I think that council tax could be thought of as a fairer option if when in Marinas then 1/2 of band A was the figure used .

The marina should be entitled to a discount on their rates based on council tax from boaters as they are providing services for the council i.e rubbish disposal.

But there needs to be 3 classes of mooring

1 Leisure where owner has a council tax paying property in this country.

2 Live aboard where boat and or occupant/s is away from council district for no less than 2 months per calendar year.

3 Residential where boat is in a designated mooring and is in occupancy for more than 10 months per calendar year

Boats on CRTonline moorings are a separate case I believe dependant on facilities.

Just some thoughts on the subject.

[floatsyourboat]

What about a 4th where you have a permanent mooring but not a permanent spot ( so your boat moves) you are responsible for your own rubbish as there are no provisions for refuse on the moorings?

I can't see what the council could charge for as they are not providing any services.

Thanks.

[Alan de Enfield]

What about a 4th where you have a permanent mooring but not a permanent spot ( so your boat moves) you are responsible for your own rubbish as there are no provisions for refuse on the moorings?

I can't see what the council could charge for as they are not providing any services.

Thanks.

 

This is a very complex subject and you should (as a minimum) read the explanations on the VOA website regarding Boats and Caravans.

 

If a mooring has planning permission to be residential, it is subject to Council Tax - the only thing that varies is how the 'band' is calculated - depending on the possibility of the boat moving to another 'place' on the mooring or not etc.

 

If the boat moves for water, pump-out etc but returns to the same place (irrespective of what it says in the mooring T&Cs) then the value of the boat is included in the value of the individual mooring to determine the CT band. This probably resulkts in the boat paying Band A CT

 

If the boat moves and then returns to a different place on the moorings then the boats value is not included in the rateable value. In this instance then the individual values of the moorings (alone) are added together, to give a composite value, this value which will probably be not much more (in total) than Band A is then divided by the number of residential boats and typically will give a CT charge of £100-£200 per annum per boat.

 

An example from the VOA :

 

A couple live on a narrow boat as their sole or main residence. They pay a mooring fee to the British Waterways Board for one of several moorings along the towing path and a licence fee to be on the canal. They share a water tap with the other boats, but the nearest sewage disposal facility is some distance away. Periodically, they move the boat to dispose of sewage; and every few years the boat is taken into dry dock for essential maintenance. British Waterways Board reserves a continual right to allocate a different mooring, for example, in order to accommodate boats of different length at the site, but in practice the boat returns to the same mooring, which is not used by other boats in its absence It has a postal address and post is delivered direct to the boat.

The mooring is domestic property by virtue of s.66(4) and sufficiently defined as to form a separate hereditament. The boat is moored with a sufficient degree of permanence as to be enjoyed with the mooring and therefore should be regarded as part of the hereditament and be included in the valuation for banding purposes.

If however the separate moorings along the canal bank are not easily identified, either in the agreement with BWB or on the ground, and can vary each time a boat is moored, as the boat always returns to a different position, then the hereditament will comprise of the whole length of moorings along that part of the canal, and the rateable occupier will be the BWB. The boat will not form part of the hereditament because it lacks sufficient permanence to be enjoyed with the land

At home I pay £250 per month Council Tax

The nearest street light to us is probably 2 miles away

The nearest footpaths is a least 1.5 mles away

We live 3/4 mile down a lane - we never see a Policeman / Car

We do not use the local library

We do not use the local schools

What am I getting for my CT - Bins emptied every two weeks.

[Southern Star]

Is it acceptable to use a boat yard for a co address?

Do I have to say I have moved onto a boat?

Thanks.

Can you just not register on the electoral roll as living with friends or relatives? When I move aboard, I'll simply stay registered where I am now, I will still spend a dozen or so days there a year and as far as I'm aware there is no requirement to stay a minimum length of time at an address to be living there.

[floatsyourboat]

Thanks but there are no live aboard moorings or at least planning for such here!

I think it's because two guys have claimed housing who have got moorings here so the council are trying to number the moorings to be able to tax them despite no planning!

I take your point about having to pay £250 a month yourself but just because a charge exists that does not make it justified. I think it's worth challenging.

Thanks.

Can you just not register on the electoral roll as living with friends or relatives? When I move aboard, I'll simply stay registered where I am now, I will still spend a dozen or so days there a year and as far as I'm aware there is no requirement to stay a minimum length of time at an address to be living there.

I could but I do not wish to join in with a system I have no use for.

They lie they cheat and they steal I have no interest in voting for them but I appreciate your point for the sake of making things easier for ourselves.

Anyway it turns out they have cancelled the direct debit so result overall.

Thanks.

[Alan de Enfield]

Thanks but there are no live aboard moorings or at least planning for such here!

I think it's because two guys have claimed housing who have got moorings here so the council are trying to number the moorings to be able to tax them despite no planning!

 

 

I know of a Marina that turned a 'blind-eye' to liveaboards, and it all went smoothly until someone decided to apply for housing benefit, to get their moorings and licence paid for by the council. They got their wish, the benefit was granted - however to have housing benefit it had to be a place where you can live, and you cannot live (in one place) anywhere without residential planning permission ( and therefore payment of council tax)

 

Long story short - marina was told to apply for planning permission to cover X number of boats, or evict the liveaboards.

Planning permission applied and granted but increased costs for the marina, which were obviously passed onto the moorers.

One persons actions resulted in financial implications for the 'many'

 

The council received back far more money in CT that they gave out in HB.

 

One person received a financial gain, but the other 15+ had a considerable on-cost to their boating.

 

It may be worth you sorting out a "Plan B" - your costs WILL be going up, in these times of financial cuts, the Council will not give up if they can see a few extra £s going into their kitty.

 

I had a planning issue with my local council a couple of years ago, they decided I should pay about £1000 for something I didnt need to pay for, after having going through the 3-tier complaint system, getting our local MP and a QC involved,and preparing for court the Chief Executive of the council asked for a meeting, negotiated a deal of several thousand pounds compensation and costs and the 'matter closed'.

It transpired that the MP & QC had told the Chief Exec that my understanding of the law was correct and that the Local Authoritys understanding was wrong and they should get it sorted before it became embarrasing to the Authority.

[Jerra]

What about a 4th where you have a permanent mooring but not a permanent spot ( so your boat moves) you are responsible for your own rubbish as there are no provisions for refuse on the moorings?

I can't see what the council could charge for as they are not providing any services.

Thanks.

Are you suggesting that you never use any of the following:

 

• recycling and waste management
• civic amenity provision
• grounds maintenance
• street cleaning
• cemeteries
• public conveniences
• food safety
• health and safety
• environmental protection
• environmental improvement
• estates management - building design and maintenance
• building control-inspection and regulation of new buildings
• dog control
• enforcement byelaws such as those around litter
• sports and leisure services
• sports and recreational facilities
• parks, open spaces and playgrounds
• community centres
• arts, heritage and cultural facilities
• registration of births, deaths and marriages

 

Yes I realise not all the council money comes from council tax but council tax helps towards these things and I suspect everybody uses some of those things. Is there any reason why they shouldn't pay for them?

[Alan de Enfield]

Jerra - whilst the councils do provide the services you list - several of them are actually paid for at point of use (not via council tax or central Government funding)

 

Cemetaries - you buy/pay for your 'plot', & you pay for the gravediggers

Planning - you pay to apply for Planning Permission

Building Control - you pay for Building Conrol inspections

Crematoria - you pay to be cremated

 

With regard to public toilets - I do not know of a single one that is in operation - they are all padlocked up

[floatsyourboat]

Are you suggesting that you never use any of the following:

 

• recycling and waste management
• civic amenity provision
• grounds maintenance
• street cleaning
• cemeteries
• public conveniences
• food safety
• health and safety
• environmental protection
• environmental improvement
• estates management - building design and maintenance
• building control-inspection and regulation of new buildings
• dog control
• enforcement byelaws such as those around litter
• sports and leisure services
• sports and recreational facilities
• parks, open spaces and playgrounds
• community centres
• arts, heritage and cultural facilities
• registration of births, deaths and marriages

Yes I realise not all the council money comes from council tax but council tax helps towards these things and I suspect everybody uses some of those things. Is there any reason why they shouldn't pay for them?

As Alan has said a lot of services are paid at point of contact.

Just because a charge for things that could be listed exist and others agree to pay for these things through social conditioning does not mean the charge is always justified!

Where I live the local council have mismanaged and wasted a lot of public money which I am sure is a familiar story in other towns.

If you look into how your local council recycles some of the waste you may find yourself rather miffed.

I manage and dispose of all my own waste.

Take plastic carrier bags, why do they exist? who makes them? but we get taxed on them! The supermarket could provide a much cheaper Eco friendly alternative but they won't as its a scam!

 

I do not agree to pay for the expensive management structures in a lot of local council departments which could be folded and handed over to community based management where funds could be spent on what is needed rather than fat cats and PR fluff and nonsensical procedure!

We are lead to believe its " us" that creates the expense when in fact it's the mismanagement of taxes that help a great deal too.

I am happy to pay in balance to services provided not just because I am tied to a bank side.

Thanks.

Edited November 21, 2014 by floatsyourboat

[Jerra]

Jerra - whilst the councils do provide the services you list - several of them are actually paid for at point of use (not via council tax or central Government funding)

 

Cemetaries - you buy/pay for your 'plot', & you pay for the gravediggers

Planning - you pay to apply for Planning Permission

Building Control - you pay for Building Conrol inspections

Crematoria - you pay to be cremated

 

With regard to public toilets - I do not know of a single one that is in operation - they are all padlocked up

You can guarantee that all the cost of the services you mention is covered by the fees charged? There are still alot of things on that list which boaters gain advantage from one example being clean (or cleaner in some cases) streets when making trip into "town" for shopping.

As Alan has said a lot of services are paid at point of contact.

Just because a charge for things that could be listed exist and others agree to pay for these things through social conditioning does not mean the charge is always justified!

Where I live the local council have mismanaged and wasted a lot of public money which I am sure is a familiar story in other towns.

If you look into how your local council recycles some of the waste you may find yourself rather miffed.

I manage and dispose of all my own waste.

Take plastic carrier bags, why do they exist? who makes them? but we get taxed on them! The supermarket could provide a much cheaper Eco friendly alternative but they won't as its a scam!

 

I do not agree to pay for the expensive management structures in a lot of local council departments which could be folded and handed over to community based management where funds could be spent on what is needed rather than fat cats and PR fluff and nonsensical procedure!

We are lead to believe its " us" that creates the expense when in fact it's the mismanagement of taxes that help a great deal too.

I am happy to pay in balance to services provided not just because I am tied to a bank side.

Thanks.

You ought in all honesty to be looking for a different society to live in if you are not prepared to live by and pay for the rules of the one you are currently in.

[b0atman]

yes council pays for lots of things that we use so should we approach each council as we boat around the country and pay pro rata

[b0atman]

Housing benefit is paid so that the recipient can pay the bills required for having a roof over their heads it gives no rights to that person .

Marinas have like Beeston won this battle for council tax based on the fact that the Marina owner has total rights over them as to where their boat is in the marina and it can be moved or evicted at any time .

The councils are looking at boaters as a new cash cow but need to realise that if one cannot live aboard in the marina then they are obliged to house them I have seen this happen .

The boater then ends up with a house generally two bedroomed and still has the boat .

[KevMc]

Housing benefit is paid so that the recipient can pay the bills required for having a roof over their heads it gives no rights to that person .

Marinas have like Beeston won this battle for council tax based on the fact that the Marina owner has total rights over them as to where their boat is in the marina and it can be moved or evicted at any time .

The councils are looking at boaters as a new cash cow but need to realise that if one cannot live aboard in the marina then they are obliged to house them I have seen this happen .

The boater then ends up with a house generally two bedroomed and still has the boat .

 

But if the residential marina dweller isn't paying council tax because they aren't liable for it the marina owner will be paying commercial rates so by levying council tax on the resident they are only shifting the load directly onto the resident - there's not going to be much difference in their total take.

[b0atman]

That's my take on it I wonder how much discount marinas can get on their rates from the council ?

[KevMc]

That's my take on it I wonder how much discount marinas can get on their rates from the council ?

 

Good question ... BWML are currently trying to get us to pay Council Tax despite the residents winning an appeal some years ago.. can't see the point in the VOA going through all that hassle again though but hey ho - it'll give some lawyer types a bit of work no doubt